Sir Richard Hadlee on Pakistani's reverse swing

[sandeep]

1 minute ago, kira said:

WHAT ? Did you forget about the super duper ATG Asif or the savior of the people, the messiah mohammad amir or the super duper PHAAASSST Mohammad abbas

Asif is a druggie and fixer who I will exclude from all discussions.   Amir has always flashed promise and potential, but still has a long way to go in the actual performance department, phateechar phanboi and their phantasies notwithstanding.   The rest of the lot are poor man's Agarkars.  Sorry, that's actually an insult to Ajit.  

[Autonomous]

There are certain bowlers due to technical issues and action who can't get reverse swing going alot for them. 

 

Mohammad Amir won't be as effective with old ball as Hassan Ali. 

[kira]

17 minutes ago, Autonomous said:

There are certain bowlers due to technical issues and action who can't get reverse swing going alot for them. 

 

Mohammad Amir won't be as effective with old ball as Hassan Ali. 

Mohammad Amir isn't even effective with the new ball 

[Rightarmfast]

37 minutes ago, sandeep said:

I don't think the average fan still realizes how much the condition of the ball matters in terms of extracting reverse swing.   Of course the Pakistanis were doing things to the ball - but that doesn't nullify the greatness of the 2 Ws.  First off, the Pakistanis were a bit ahead of the curve in the knowledge required to extract reverse swing - and that's something creditable.  And 2nd, even today, the 'working on the ball' and maintaining the ball are massive grey areas.  

 

Teams have gone to all sorts of extremes to get the desired results - from the south africans adding zippers to their pockets - as clear a violation as it gets - something the team and board should have been penalized for - to certain team members growing a fingernail, using nail hardeners etc - to using certain extremely specific types of mints that result in the ball being polished better.   These are all questionable tactics in use today.   

 

I think OP is being a bit churlish in discrediting the Pakistani bowlers.   Just because they leveraged their knowledge and existing loopholes to maximize this advantage, doesn't mean they weren't great bowlers.   I can understand the need to do this though, if you put too much stock in the phateechar phaans constant crowing and chest thumping of their "traditional" pace prowess.  No such thing.   Pak enjoyed a brief stay at the pace pinnacle, thanks to their 'discovery' of reverse swing and willingness to really push the boundaries on 'ball management'.   Apart from Imran, they were nowhere in the pace bowling discussions before the 90s, and since 2005 or so, haven't really had any ATG type pace bowler contenders either.  

 

I see that people are not trying to understand the meaning of my words, and have started passing judgement. please read the comparison and the analogy in my post. I have clearly mentioned that if your greats are tainted, like Azhar for us, do we still revere them? It is not questioning their talent, it is questioning their morals. And it is questioning if someone has abused the spirit of the game, do they still deserve to be called legends of the game.

 

Nowhere have I said that Wasim or Waqar were not talented bowlers. I did say that their pace was hyped. Nothing about the quality of their bowling.

[putrevus]

Anyone who says Wasim and Waqar were medium pace have no clue on fast bowling. Waqar had more pace but Wasim had more skill.They had so much success because they had pace along with skill and we cannot take away their greatness. Imran Khan was also was very great bowler.

 

Did they resort to illegal ways to achieve their goals , yes they did.They had massive success in county cricket too and all players who played with them in county cricket have positive things to say about them and that is a plus for them.

 

 

Edited May 11, 2017 by putrevus

[sandeep]

31 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

I see that people are not trying to understand the meaning of my words, and have started passing judgement. please read the comparison and the analogy in my post. I have clearly mentioned that if your greats are tainted, like Azhar for us, do we still revere them? It is not questioning their talent, it is questioning their morals. And it is questioning if someone has abused the spirit of the game, do they still deserve to be called legends of the game.

 

Nowhere have I said that Wasim or Waqar were not talented bowlers. I did say that their pace was hyped. Nothing about the quality of their bowling.

Fair point, but we can still disagree on 'questioning' their morals.   The problem is that how much work you can do in conditioning the ball in cricket is a grey area, even today.   Sure, these guys pushed the limits, but its not quite comparable to what Azhar did, which was blatantly wrong and criminal.   

[sandeep]

34 minutes ago, kira said:

Mohammad Amir isn't even effective with the new ball 

Are you saying he's poor man's Bhuvi with the new ball?   

[Trichromatic]

It's not that they were allowed to bowl with torn ball without umpire noticing it. Earlier even without cameras umpires used to take a look at the ball and it was changed whenver condition of the ball wasn't good. So absence of so many cameras helped anyone being caught, but it didn't allow bowlers to bowl with completely out of shape of ball either as some people would like to think. It wasn't easy to do even then. 

 

I can bet that even if same type of camera conditons are allowed today, it would not be easy for bowlers to replicate those performances. 

[Vilander]

2 hours ago, sandeep said:

I don't think the average fan still realizes how much the condition of the ball matters in terms of extracting reverse swing.   Of course the Pakistanis were doing things to the ball - but that doesn't nullify the greatness of the 2 Ws.  First off, the Pakistanis were a bit ahead of the curve in the knowledge required to extract reverse swing - and that's something creditable.  And 2nd, even today, the 'working on the ball' and maintaining the ball are massive grey areas.  

 

Teams have gone to all sorts of extremes to get the desired results - from the south africans adding zippers to their pockets - as clear a violation as it gets - something the team and board should have been penalized for - to certain team members growing a fingernail, using nail hardeners etc - to using certain extremely specific types of mints that result in the ball being polished better.   These are all questionable tactics in use today.   

 

I think OP is being a bit churlish in discrediting the Pakistani bowlers.   Just because they leveraged their knowledge and existing loopholes to maximize this advantage, doesn't mean they weren't great bowlers.   I can understand the need to do this though, if you put too much stock in the phateechar phaans constant crowing and chest thumping of their "traditional" pace prowess.  No such thing.   Pak enjoyed a brief stay at the pace pinnacle, thanks to their 'discovery' of reverse swing and willingness to really push the boundaries on 'ball management'.   Apart from Imran, they were nowhere in the pace bowling discussions before the 90s, and since 2005 or so, haven't really had any ATG type pace bowler contenders either.  

 

yeah coherent though, but to cheat is to cheat there is no grey area there, and definitely no greatness there.

[Vilander]

8 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

Good attempt, but didnt amuse much!

lol i ment what i said not trolling.

[sandeep]

29 minutes ago, Vilander said:

yeah coherent though, but to cheat is to cheat there is no grey area there, and definitely no greatness there.

That's the problem - there is a grey area, because its not well-defined what type of 'work' on the ball constitutes cheating, while what's OK.   

[sandeep]

1 hour ago, Trichromatic said:

It's not that they were allowed to bowl with torn ball without umpire noticing it. Earlier even without cameras umpires used to take a look at the ball and it was changed whenver condition of the ball wasn't good. So absence of so many cameras helped anyone being caught, but it didn't allow bowlers to bowl with completely out of shape of ball either as some people would like to think. It wasn't easy to do even then. 

 

I can bet that even if same type of camera conditons are allowed today, it would not be easy for bowlers to replicate those performances. 

Even batsmen are more aware of reverse these days, and are not as much of sitting ducks as they used to.   Reverse is still hard to play, but at least you have a chance to handle it if you know about it and can see it coming.  

[Vilander]

5 minutes ago, sandeep said:

That's the problem - there is a grey area, because its not well-defined what type of 'work' on the ball constitutes cheating, while what's OK.   

you are saying historically, it is cheating to scruff the seam with a foreign object as per rules. pretty clear imo, akram/waqar flouted it as they had neutral umpires and not so close cameras to pick up what they are doing.

[sandeep]

23 minutes ago, Vilander said:

you are saying historically, it is cheating to scruff the seam with a foreign object as per rules. pretty clear imo, akram/waqar flouted it as they had neutral umpires and not so close cameras to pick up what they are doing.

What I'm saying is, any team and bowler that is successful in obtaining reverse swing has to work on altering and maintaining the condition of the ball.  Its not possible without that.  What remains, is a matter of degree, and hence a grey area by definition.  

[Vilander]

2 minutes ago, sandeep said:

What I'm saying is, any team and bowler that is successful in obtaining reverse swing has to work on altering and maintaining the condition of the ball.  Its not possible without that.  What remains, is a matter of degree, and hence a grey area by definition.  

:) saliva and rubbing on the sleeve is allowed. Just about anything else is cheating actually. Dude Akram/Waqar cheated and did not get caught thats all. But we can agree to disagree.

[sandeep]

7 minutes ago, Vilander said:

:) saliva and rubbing on the sleeve is allowed. Just about anything else is cheating actually. Dude Akram/Waqar cheated and did not get caught thats all. But we can agree to disagree.

Is bouncing the ball intentionally into the practice pitches allowed?  

Is using certain types of "extra-strong" mints in saliva allowed?  

Is borrowing your girlfriend's nail hardener and coating your nails with them allowed?  

 

Btw, I'm not saying that Pakistan didn't push the boundaries on 'working' on the ball - we all know they did.  Their retired players have said as much on record.   

[Vilander]

3 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Is bouncing the ball intentionally into the practice pitches allowed?  

Is using certain types of "extra-strong" mints in saliva allowed?  

Is borrowing your girlfriend's nail hardener and coating your nails with them allowed?  

 

Btw, I'm not saying that Pakistan didn't push the boundaries on 'working' on the ball - we all know they did.  Their retired players have said as much on record.   

Get you point, the answer is they arnt allowed, but innocent until proven guilty, but also absence of proof is not proof of absence of guilt.

[Muloghonto]

36 minutes ago, Vilander said:

:) saliva and rubbing on the sleeve is allowed. Just about anything else is cheating actually. Dude Akram/Waqar cheated and did not get caught thats all. But we can agree to disagree.

they were under intense media scrutiny for cheating (ball tampering) during the whole series vs England in the early 90s and nobody found anything.

Akram has subsequently said many, many times that the big difference was (and still is) Pakistan were invested as a team to treat the ball, with players routinely passing the ball back to the bowler on the bounce (on the rough side), spinners bowling cross seam deliveries specifically with the rougher side facing down, etc. 

The reason they got so much success from it, is because the Pakistan team was the best at ball management during that era, reverse swing was a new and unknown weapon and they were both top class ball-hiders. 

[Rightarmfast]

1 hour ago, sandeep said:

What I'm saying is, any team and bowler that is successful in obtaining reverse swing has to work on altering and maintaining the condition of the ball.  Its not possible without that.  What remains, is a matter of degree, and hence a grey area by definition.  

When you are bending the rules, you ARE bending the rules. Its simple as that. People know it when they cheat. They didnt get caught, thats it. everybody knows Pakistani bowlers were guilty of tampering, Just that theres no proof. 

Edited May 11, 2017 by Rightarmfast

[Autonomous]

4 hours ago, kira said:

Mohammad Amir isn't even effective with the nell 

Mohammad Amir gets shape with new ball, His new ball bowling was reason we managed to do well in bowling department against Australia in First 3 ODIs.