coffee_rules Posted March 23, 2020 Share Posted March 23, 2020 30 minutes ago, Muloghonto said: No, even in bharatiya literature. Samrat hemu’s proclamation was as samrat of Hindustan. Shivaji used Hindustan way more than Bharat. The last historical treaters composed by Kalhana in 12th century uses Hindustan and aryavarta way more than Bharat. The other names dont stand test test of time ? Hindustan is still just as often used as bharot in Bengali and way more in Hindi.... religion and Mahabharata played the part in making an obscure term like Bharat more popular in the last 200 odd years Yes, from the 12th century till Shivaji in the 17th century, with proliferation of Indian literature scene with influences from Persian, Turkish languages, Hindustan was more popular, but Sanskrit, regional language literature from at least Kannada and Telugu that I have read, has maintained Bharatiya influence even in that period. In the 18th century Urdu was the official language in Awadh, people had to fight back British to recognize Hindi. In that scenario, naturally Hindustan will be popular in use and also in literature . But since in mid 1800s onwards, with the freedom struggle movements in Punjab, Bengal, and Maharashtra , Bharat is in use with slogans of Bharatmata ki jai in vogue along with Hindustan zindabad. Hence, the highest civilian award is called BharatRatna and not Taj-e-Hindustan or some such nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted March 23, 2020 Share Posted March 23, 2020 1 minute ago, coffee_rules said: Yes, from the 12th century till Shivaji in the 17th century, with proliferation of Indian literature scene with influences from Persian, Turkish languages, Hindustan was more popular, but Sanskrit, regional language literature from at least Kannada and Telugu that I have read, has maintained Bharatiya influence even in that period. In the 18th century Urdu was the official language in Awadh, people had to fight back British to recognize Hindi. In that scenario, naturally Hindustan will be popular in use and also in literature . But since in mid 1800s onwards, with the freedom struggle movements in Punjab, Bengal, and Maharashtra , Bharat is in use with slogans of Bharatmata ki jai in vogue along with Hindustan zindabad. Hence, the highest civilian award is called BharatRatna and not Taj-e-Hindustan or some such nonsense. Sure but that doesn’t change the fact that Hindustan is way more historically significant a term via usage than Bharat. This is fact, this is history and it needs to be remembered and given primacy as is, due to this reason. My point re: jews doing the same, which zen couldn’t answer, is pertinent to learning from those groups who are masters at preserving their history, unlike us, who historically and culturally forgot our greatest heroes. The fault for not remembering and honouring history by Hindus, is not due to conquest or dominance of foreigners- if that was so, Armenians, Jews, etc would’ve forgotten their history too. But they didn’t. And the reason is simple: they don’t seek to forget historical terms and terminologies due to a new fad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffee_rules Posted March 23, 2020 Share Posted March 23, 2020 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Muloghonto said: Sure but that doesn’t change the fact that Hindustan is way more historically significant a term via usage than Bharat. This is fact, this is history and it needs to be remembered and given primacy as is, due to this reason. My point re: jews doing the same, which zen couldn’t answer, is pertinent to learning from those groups who are masters at preserving their history, unlike us, who historically and culturally forgot our greatest heroes. The fault for not remembering and honouring history by Hindus, is not due to conquest or dominance of foreigners- if that was so, Armenians, Jews, etc would’ve forgotten their history too. But they didn’t. And the reason is simple: they don’t seek to forget historical terms and terminologies due to a new fad Sorry, what history regarding Hindustan did we not preserve? It seems like all that we remember from history is only about the conquests of Hindustan by foreign invaders. Thanks to Marxist and western historians. Edited March 23, 2020 by coffee_rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted March 23, 2020 Share Posted March 23, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, coffee_rules said: Sorry, what history regarding Hindustan did we not preserve? It seems like all that we remember from history is only about the conquests of Hindustan by foreign invaders. Thanks to Marxist and western historians. We did and we will continue to do so, history should never be a subtraction but only an addition to the real actual tales ( not Marxist whitewashing) of the events. This lends to the idea that we should indeed preserve the term that is historically the most dominant term, as our most dominant identity term. This is the attitude shift that needs to happen re: history or else like zen, we will rename it to something else and just like how we eventually forgot Ashoka, samudragupta or shatakarni, we will do so again with all the nuances that come with the written accounts of India and Hindustan in its full scope. Edited March 23, 2020 by Muloghonto sarcastic 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Real McCoy Posted March 23, 2020 Share Posted March 23, 2020 (edited) 9 hours ago, zen said: As I have posted about groups that would make posts like yours: "At this point, IMO, basically three types of groups would oppose to "Bharat" being made the predominant official name: a) Visualize the term as a Hindu name (Even though it is cultural and when in the region, a Bharat is likely to be the more common name than John or Dimitris - a reality) b) Associate the term with Hindi (even though it is Sanskrit and its variants used in various regional languages) c) Like status quo for some trivial reasons As discussed, a large group of people is already happily using the name whether in official capacity, regional languages, interactions, national anthem, and so on .... and would appreciate the name becoming predominant" How do you come to this conclusion. Once the name change takes place, world confusion will set in. it will affect trade and the economy. The people won't like the name change then and blame the PM for this. I don't think any PM wants this. many people in US are only beginning to understand where India is. Now changing name will add to the confusion. Like it or not, US and other countries are important in the world stage as we live in a interconnected world. Indian food, culture, history has its own brand name. Rather than improving the brand, you just want a name change. That is so Indian While that will have a temporary boost on the local population, it will affect us negatively in the world scheme of things. Why would you bother about locals. After all you are in US where you get to live comfy in the developed world. Come here and live. Already the rupee has shrunk to 75 on the dollar. Changing names will only plummet it further. IMF will still not change rupee designation from INR. Live in your dreamworld. I woudl go with D) like status quo for obvious reasons not registering in zen's mind Edited March 23, 2020 by Real McCoy sarcastic and Muloghonto 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
someone Posted March 23, 2020 Share Posted March 23, 2020 This is a battle which is gone and lost. Its too late and we are too ahead of the time. Bharat should have been the name which would reflect our history and civilisation. Instead we got the India, with colonial connotations and has resulted in our current Identity crisis. coffee_rules 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted March 23, 2020 Author Share Posted March 23, 2020 40 minutes ago, Real McCoy said: How do you come to this conclusion. Once the name change takes place, world confusion will set in. it will affect trade and the economy. The people won't like the name change then and blame the PM for this. I don't think any PM wants this. many people in US are only beginning to understand where India is. Now changing name will add to the confusion. Like it or not, US and other countries are important in the world stage as we live in a interconnected world. Indian food, culture, history has its own brand name. Rather than improving the brand, you just want a name change. That is so Indian While that will have a temporary boost on the local population, it will affect us negatively in the world scheme of things. Why would you bother about locals. After all you are in US where you get to live comfy in the developed world. Come here and live. Already the rupee has shrunk to 75 on the dollar. Changing names will only plummet it further. IMF will still not change rupee designation from INR. Live in your dreamworld. I woudl go with D) like status quo for obvious reasons not registering in zen's mind The move to make Bharat predominant would be done in phases for e.g. first by starting out at sporting events, inter governmental events, and so on. Private companies would be free to pick whatever name they want, and so on .... It will be a smooth transition and people will not even know what happened Countries break up. New maps are drawn every 70 years, or so on. Far more complex issues have and can be handled Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mariyam Posted March 23, 2020 Share Posted March 23, 2020 India: Main India hoon, mark naam idhar hai Bharat: Main Bharat hoon safed (reference to the western origin of the name) India. Main Bharat hoon yaar. India: Bharat tu sudhar ja, India main hoon Bharat: Bharat main hoon kyuki mera naam bhi Bharat hai India: India main hoon, mark naam idhar hai Bharat: Bhaad main gaya mark naam, Bharat mai hoon Rest of ICF: Ye India India kya hai, ye Bharat Bharat For context bhakum20 and sandeep 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stradlater Posted March 23, 2020 Share Posted March 23, 2020 8 hours ago, Muloghonto said: No, even in bharatiya literature. Samrat hemu’s proclamation was as samrat of Hindustan. Shivaji used Hindustan way more than Bharat. The last historical treaters composed by Kalhana in 12th century uses Hindustan and aryavarta way more than Bharat. The other names dont stand test test of time ? Hindustan is still just as often used as bharot in Bengali and way more in Hindi.... religion and Mahabharata played the part in making an obscure term like Bharat more popular in the last 200 odd years When did Hemu proclaim himself to be the king? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Real McCoy Posted March 23, 2020 Share Posted March 23, 2020 4 hours ago, zen said: The move to make Bharat predominant would be done in phases for e.g. first by starting out at sporting events, inter governmental events, and so on. Private companies would be free to pick whatever name they want, and so on .... It will be a smooth transition and people will not even know what happened Countries break up. New maps are drawn every 70 years, or so on. Far more complex issues have and can be handled Keep dreaming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted March 23, 2020 Author Share Posted March 23, 2020 This one has am awesome - “Bharatam Maha Bharatam” poem/song Like what was suggested in the video, I did “Bharat Bharat Bharat” and it did sound more powerful Bharat has a powerful connection and am glad that the county has an official name like that. Now need to make it the predominant one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Real McCoy Posted March 23, 2020 Share Posted March 23, 2020 Bharat has a powerful connection said someone who doesn't live in Bharat. He maybe using a wireless connection sarcastic 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted March 23, 2020 Share Posted March 23, 2020 7 hours ago, Stradlater said: When did Hemu proclaim himself to be the king? Just before panipat. I believe it’s just after the last Suri king died Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted March 23, 2020 Author Share Posted March 23, 2020 14 hours ago, coffee_rules said: Yes, from the 12th century till Shivaji in the 17th century, with proliferation of Indian literature scene with influences from Persian, Turkish languages, Hindustan was more popular, but Sanskrit, regional language literature from at least Kannada and Telugu that I have read, has maintained Bharatiya influence even in that period. In the 18th century Urdu was the official language in Awadh, people had to fight back British to recognize Hindi. In that scenario, naturally Hindustan will be popular in use and also in literature . But since in mid 1800s onwards, with the freedom struggle movements in Punjab, Bengal, and Maharashtra , Bharat is in use with slogans of Bharatmata ki jai in vogue along with Hindustan zindabad. Hence, the highest civilian award is called BharatRatna and not Taj-e-Hindustan or some such nonsense. Good points! .... thought there is no need to get bogged down on when the terms were used or first used. Even a freshly coined word can be used to name a country .... What is important is that Bharat and India are selected as the two official names of the country .... Since Bharat is more culturally aligned, it should gain predominance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted March 23, 2020 Share Posted March 23, 2020 4 minutes ago, zen said: Good points! .... thought there is no need to get bogged down on when the terms were used or first used. Even a freshly coined word can be used to name a country .... What is important is that Bharat and India are selected as the two official names of the country .... Since Bharat is more culturally aligned, it should gain predominance India is more culturally aligned because it has been used by our people the most in history. That’s basic facts. Sorry but we won’t let you erase the term that is tied to our history. It’s india first on the passport, Bharat second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stradlater Posted March 23, 2020 Share Posted March 23, 2020 6 minutes ago, Muloghonto said: Just before panipat. I believe it’s just after the last Suri king died He proclaimed the title of Vikramaditya only. His forces were overwhelmingly comprised of the Afghan loyalists of Surs with only a small fraction of Hindus (mostly Rajput mercenaries) . How can someone with no following of his own proclaim himself the samrat of Hindustan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted March 23, 2020 Share Posted March 23, 2020 1 minute ago, Stradlater said: He proclaimed the title of Vikramaditya only. His forces were overwhelmingly comprised of the Afghan loyalists of Surs with only a small fraction of Hindus (mostly Rajput mercenaries) . How can someone with no following of his own proclaim himself the samrat of Hindustan? I believe his official proclamation was under the name of ‘ samraat hemchandra vikramaditya of hindustan’ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted March 23, 2020 Author Share Posted March 23, 2020 Just now, Muloghonto said: India is more culturally aligned because it has been used by our people the most in history. That’s basic facts. Sorry but we won’t let you erase the term that is tied to our history. It’s india first on the passport, Bharat second. The irrelevance of your point "used most in history" has been thrown out multiple times .... And the random points on erasing, placement on passport, etc. .... don't waste my time with your spam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted March 23, 2020 Share Posted March 23, 2020 6 minutes ago, zen said: The irrelevance of your point "used most in history" has been thrown out multiple times .... And the random points on erasing, placement on passport, etc. .... don't waste my time with your spam Saying it’s irrelevant doesn’t make it so. History is culture and our own ancestors used it more than Bharat. This makes India more culturally aligned than Bharat. See, you have no logic and reasoning on your side, just ‘ I say so’ mentality. Good thing you don’t live in India Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffee_rules Posted March 23, 2020 Share Posted March 23, 2020 11 hours ago, Muloghonto said: We did and we will continue to do so, history should never be a subtraction but only an addition to the real actual tales ( not Marxist whitewashing) of the events. This lends to the idea that we should indeed preserve the term that is historically the most dominant term, as our most dominant identity term. This is the attitude shift that needs to happen re: history or else like zen, we will rename it to something else and just like how we eventually forgot Ashoka, samudragupta or shatakarni, we will do so again with all the nuances that come with the written accounts of India and Hindustan in its full scope. On the contrary, by trying to glorify Asoka as the great, we have done the opposite. We have forgotten or not preserved a whole 1000 years of Indian history as we don't know about Guptas, Rashrtrakutas, Chalukyas, Kalingas, Andharas, Cholas, Pallavas, so we moved from Asoka to Mohd Bin Qasim. There are a lot of refutations to the Asoka story by both modern and past historians. British Historians did the connections hurriedly as Maurya dynasty was listed in Puranas, albeit much earlier. They might have done it to bring out the story of Buddhism being counter to Sanatana Dharma as it seemed to be a reformed or alternate version of the Dharma. Altho, Dharmic historians could only list the main kings or we have lost some of the artifacts, unoike Greeks or Chinese. There is a sinhalese connection to Asoka as well. These refutations are not challenged in academia as it is owned by the custodians of the west and they have a coterie/army of academcians guarding their legacy.. All attempts to change it is called a RW conspiracy. Our guys also are not very smart and work on fantasy and myths, and not with facts. There are a lot of modern advances in science available to validate the chronolgy of the Dharmic scriptures. We have won the war on AIT, now the next task is to fix the Dharmic chronology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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