Using Bharat over India

[Muloghonto]

1 minute ago, coffee_rules said:

Yes, from the 12th century till Shivaji in the 17th century, with proliferation of Indian literature scene with influences from Persian, Turkish languages, Hindustan was more popular, but Sanskrit, regional language literature from at least Kannada and Telugu that I have read,  has maintained Bharatiya influence even in that period. In the 18th century Urdu was the official language in Awadh, people had to fight back British to recognize Hindi. In that scenario, naturally Hindustan will be popular in use and also in literature . But since in mid 1800s onwards, with the freedom struggle movements in Punjab, Bengal, and Maharashtra , Bharat is in use with slogans of Bharatmata ki jai in vogue along with Hindustan zindabad. Hence, the highest civilian award is called BharatRatna and not Taj-e-Hindustan or some such nonsense.

Sure but that doesn’t change the fact that Hindustan is way more historically significant a term via usage than Bharat. This is fact, this is history and it needs to be remembered and given primacy as is, due to this reason. My point re: jews doing the same, which zen couldn’t answer, is pertinent to learning from those groups who are masters at preserving their history, unlike us, who historically and culturally forgot our greatest heroes. 

The fault for not remembering and honouring history by Hindus, is not due to conquest or dominance of foreigners- if that was so, Armenians, Jews, etc would’ve forgotten their history too. But they didn’t. And the reason is simple: they don’t seek to forget historical terms and terminologies due to a new fad 

[coffee_rules]

27 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Sure but that doesn’t change the fact that Hindustan is way more historically significant a term via usage than Bharat. This is fact, this is history and it needs to be remembered and given primacy as is, due to this reason. My point re: jews doing the same, which zen couldn’t answer, is pertinent to learning from those groups who are masters at preserving their history, unlike us, who historically and culturally forgot our greatest heroes. 

The fault for not remembering and honouring history by Hindus, is not due to conquest or dominance of foreigners- if that was so, Armenians, Jews, etc would’ve forgotten their history too. But they didn’t. And the reason is simple: they don’t seek to forget historical terms and terminologies due to a new fad 

Sorry, what history regarding Hindustan did we not preserve? It seems like all that we remember from history is only about the conquests of Hindustan by foreign invaders. Thanks to Marxist and western historians.

Edited March 23, 2020 by coffee_rules

[Muloghonto]

2 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

Sorry, what history regarding Hindustan did we not preserve? It seems like all that we remember from history is only about the conquests of Hindustan by foreign invaders. Thanks to Marxist and western historians.

We did and we will continue to do so, history should never be a subtraction but only an addition to the real actual tales ( not Marxist whitewashing) of the events. This lends to the idea that we should indeed preserve the term that is historically the most dominant term, as our most dominant identity term.

 

This is the attitude shift that needs to happen re: history or else like zen, we will rename it to something else and just like how we eventually forgot Ashoka, samudragupta or shatakarni, we will do so again with all the nuances that come with the written accounts of India and Hindustan in its full scope.

Edited March 23, 2020 by Muloghonto

[Real McCoy]

9 hours ago, zen said:

 

As I have posted about groups that would make posts like yours:

 

"At this point, IMO, basically three types of groups would oppose to "Bharat" being made the predominant official name:

 

a) Visualize the term as a Hindu name (Even though it is cultural and when in the region, a Bharat is likely to be the more common name than John or Dimitris - a reality)

b) Associate the term with Hindi (even though it is Sanskrit and its variants used in various regional languages) 

c) Like status quo for some trivial reasons

 

As discussed, a large group of people is already happily using the name whether in official capacity, regional languages, interactions, national anthem, and so on .... and would appreciate the name becoming predominant" 

How do you come to this conclusion. Once the name change takes place, world confusion will set in. it will affect trade and the economy. The people won't like the name change then and blame the PM for this. I don't think any PM wants this. many people in US are only beginning to understand where India is. Now changing name will add to the confusion. Like it or not, US and other countries are important in the world stage as we live in a interconnected world.

Indian food, culture, history has its own brand name. Rather than improving the brand, you just want a name change. That is so Indian While that will have a temporary boost on the local population, it will affect us negatively in the world scheme of things. Why would you bother about locals. After all you are in US where you get to live comfy in the developed world. Come here and live. Already the rupee has shrunk to 75 on the dollar. Changing names will only plummet it further. IMF will still not change rupee designation from INR. Live in your dreamworld.

I woudl go with D) like status quo for obvious reasons not registering in zen's mind

Edited March 23, 2020 by Real McCoy

[someone]

This is a battle which is gone and lost. Its too late and we are too ahead of the time.
 

Bharat should have been the name which would reflect our history and civilisation. Instead we got the India, with colonial connotations and has resulted in our current Identity crisis.

[zen]

40 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

How do you come to this conclusion. Once the name change takes place, world confusion will set in. it will affect trade and the economy. The people won't like the name change then and blame the PM for this. I don't think any PM wants this. many people in US are only beginning to understand where India is. Now changing name will add to the confusion. Like it or not, US and other countries are important in the world stage as we live in a interconnected world.

Indian food, culture, history has its own brand name. Rather than improving the brand, you just want a name change. That is so Indian While that will have a temporary boost on the local population, it will affect us negatively in the world scheme of things. Why would you bother about locals. After all you are in US where you get to live comfy in the developed world. Come here and live. Already the rupee has shrunk to 75 on the dollar. Changing names will only plummet it further. IMF will still not change rupee designation from INR. Live in your dreamworld.

I woudl go with D) like status quo for obvious reasons not registering in zen's mind

The move to make Bharat predominant would  be done in phases for e.g. first by starting out at sporting events, inter governmental events, and so on. Private companies would be free to pick whatever name they want, and so on .... It will be a smooth transition and people will not even know what happened 

 

Countries break up. New maps are drawn every 70 years, or so on. Far more complex issues have and can be handled 

 

[Mariyam]

India: Main India hoon, mark naam idhar hai

Bharat: Main Bharat hoon safed (reference to the western origin of the name) India. Main Bharat hoon yaar.

India: Bharat tu sudhar ja, India main hoon

Bharat: Bharat main hoon kyuki mera naam bhi Bharat hai

India: India main hoon, mark naam idhar hai

Bharat: Bhaad main gaya mark naam, Bharat mai hoon

Rest of ICF: Ye India India kya hai, ye Bharat Bharat 

 

For context

 

[Stradlater]

8 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

No, even in bharatiya literature. Samrat hemu’s proclamation was as samrat of Hindustan. Shivaji used Hindustan way more than Bharat. The last historical treaters composed by Kalhana in 12th century uses Hindustan and aryavarta way more than Bharat. 

 

The other names dont stand test test of time ? Hindustan is still just as often used as bharot in Bengali and way more in Hindi.... religion and Mahabharata played the part in making an obscure term like Bharat more popular in the last 200 odd years 

When did Hemu proclaim himself to be the king? 

[Real McCoy]

4 hours ago, zen said:

The move to make Bharat predominant would  be done in phases for e.g. first by starting out at sporting events, inter governmental events, and so on. Private companies would be free to pick whatever name they want, and so on .... It will be a smooth transition and people will not even know what happened 

 

Countries break up. New maps are drawn every 70 years, or so on. Far more complex issues have and can be handled 

 

Keep dreaming

[zen]

 

This one has am awesome - “Bharatam Maha Bharatam” poem/song

 

Like what was suggested in the video, I did “Bharat Bharat Bharat” and it did sound more powerful 

 

Bharat has a powerful connection and am glad that the county has an official name like that. Now need to make it the predominant one!

[Real McCoy]

Bharat has a powerful connection said someone who doesn't live in Bharat. He maybe using a wireless connection

[Muloghonto]

7 hours ago, Stradlater said:

When did Hemu proclaim himself to be the king? 

Just before panipat. I believe it’s just after the last Suri king died 

[zen]

14 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

Yes, from the 12th century till Shivaji in the 17th century, with proliferation of Indian literature scene with influences from Persian, Turkish languages, Hindustan was more popular, but Sanskrit, regional language literature from at least Kannada and Telugu that I have read,  has maintained Bharatiya influence even in that period. In the 18th century Urdu was the official language in Awadh, people had to fight back British to recognize Hindi. In that scenario, naturally Hindustan will be popular in use and also in literature . But since in mid 1800s onwards, with the freedom struggle movements in Punjab, Bengal, and Maharashtra , Bharat is in use with slogans of Bharatmata ki jai in vogue along with Hindustan zindabad. Hence, the highest civilian award is called BharatRatna and not Taj-e-Hindustan or some such nonsense.

Good points! .... thought there is no need to get bogged down on when the terms were used or first used. Even a freshly coined word can be used to name a country .... What is important is that Bharat and India are selected as the two official names of the country .... Since Bharat is more culturally aligned, it should gain predominance 

[Muloghonto]

4 minutes ago, zen said:

Good points! .... thought there is no need to get bogged down on when the terms were used or first used. Even a freshly coined word can be used to name a country .... What is important is that Bharat and India are selected as the two official names of the country .... Since Bharat is more culturally aligned, it should gain predominance 

India is more culturally aligned because it has been used by our people the most in history. That’s basic facts. Sorry but we won’t let you erase the term that is tied to our history. It’s india first on the passport, Bharat second. 

[Stradlater]

6 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Just before panipat. I believe it’s just after the last Suri king died 

He proclaimed the title of Vikramaditya only. His forces were overwhelmingly comprised of the Afghan loyalists of Surs with only a small fraction of Hindus (mostly Rajput mercenaries) . 

 

How can someone with no following of his own proclaim himself the samrat of Hindustan? 

[Muloghonto]

1 minute ago, Stradlater said:

He proclaimed the title of Vikramaditya only. His forces were overwhelmingly comprised of the Afghan loyalists of Surs with only a small fraction of Hindus (mostly Rajput mercenaries) . 

 

How can someone with no following of his own proclaim himself the samrat of Hindustan? 

I believe his official proclamation was under the name of ‘ samraat hemchandra vikramaditya of hindustan’ 

[zen]

Just now, Muloghonto said:

India is more culturally aligned because it has been used by our people the most in history. That’s basic facts. Sorry but we won’t let you erase the term that is tied to our history. It’s india first on the passport, Bharat second. 

The irrelevance of your point  "used most in history" has been thrown out multiple times .... And the random points on erasing, placement on passport, etc.  .... don't waste my time with your spam 

 

[Muloghonto]

6 minutes ago, zen said:

The irrelevance of your point  "used most in history" has been thrown out multiple times .... And the random points on erasing, placement on passport, etc.  .... don't waste my time with your spam 

 

Saying it’s irrelevant doesn’t make it so. History is culture and our own ancestors used it more than Bharat. This makes India more culturally aligned than Bharat. See, you have no logic and reasoning on your side, just ‘ I say so’ mentality. Good thing you don’t live in India 

[coffee_rules]

11 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

We did and we will continue to do so, history should never be a subtraction but only an addition to the real actual tales ( not Marxist whitewashing) of the events. This lends to the idea that we should indeed preserve the term that is historically the most dominant term, as our most dominant identity term.

 

This is the attitude shift that needs to happen re: history or else like zen, we will rename it to something else and just like how we eventually forgot Ashoka, samudragupta or shatakarni, we will do so again with all the nuances that come with the written accounts of India and Hindustan in its full scope.

On the contrary, by trying to glorify Asoka as the great, we have done the opposite. We have forgotten or not preserved a whole 1000 years of Indian history as we don't know about Guptas, Rashrtrakutas, Chalukyas, Kalingas, Andharas, Cholas, Pallavas, so we moved from Asoka to Mohd Bin Qasim. There are a lot of refutations to the Asoka story by both modern and past historians. British Historians did the connections hurriedly as Maurya dynasty was listed in Puranas, albeit much earlier. They might have done it to bring out the story of Buddhism being counter to Sanatana Dharma as it seemed to be a reformed or alternate  version of the Dharma. Altho, Dharmic historians could only list the main kings or we have lost some of the artifacts, unoike Greeks or Chinese. There is a sinhalese connection to Asoka as well. These refutations are not challenged in academia as it is owned by the custodians of the west and they have a coterie/army of academcians guarding their legacy.. All attempts to change it is called a RW conspiracy. Our guys also are not very smart and work on fantasy and myths, and not with facts. There are a lot of modern advances in science available to validate the chronolgy of the Dharmic scriptures. We have won the war on AIT, now the next task is to fix the Dharmic chronology.

[zen]

10 hours ago, someone said:

Bharat should have been the name which would reflect our history and civilisation. Instead we got the India, with colonial connotations and has resulted in our current Identity crisis.

Both Bharat and India are official names of the country.  If the country had a different set of leaders, maybe Bharat could have been used more or become predominant. 

 

Every 60-70 years, concepts change, world map gets redrawn, new initiatives gain prominence (for e.g. the use of Euro), etc., so you may see "Bharat" gaining predominance over "India" .... Change is constant. For e.g. just in the last two decades:

 

21st century[edit]

2010s[edit]

Year	Date	Event
2019	20 March	Kazakhstan changes the name of its capital from Astana to Nur-Sultan in honour of ex-President Nursultan Nazarbayev after the Constitution of Kazakhstan is amended.[1]
	12 February	The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia adopts the name Republic of North Macedonia as part of the Prespa agreement, under which Greece will no longer veto the country's accession to NATO and the European Union.[2][3] Skopje remains the capital.
2018	24 December	Burundi moves its capital from Bujumbura to Gitega.[4]
	9 July	Ethiopia ends its occupation of Badme and returns the town to Eritrea following a peace summit, ending their 20-year border conflict.
	19 April	The Kingdom of Swaziland changes its name to the Kingdom of Eswatini. Mbabane remains the capital.[5]
	2 February	The International Court of Justice (ICJ) rules that a strip of northern Isla Portillos at the mouth of the San Juan River in Nicaragua belongs to Costa Rica.[6]
	1 January	Belgium and The Netherlands finalize an exchange of territory along the Meuse River.[7] The agreement, initially signed on 28 November 2016, involves a one-for-two swap of three tiny islands, with the Netherlands gaining 24.7 acres (10.0 ha) of land near Oost-Maarland, so that pene-exclaves caused by the straightening of the Meuse can be fixed. Presqu'ile de L'llal and Presqu'ile d'Eijsden, which were formerly Belgian, were swapped for a former Dutch piece of land, Presqu'ile Petit-Gravier.[8]
2017	24 June	Egypt transfers sovereignty of Sanafir Island and Tiran Island to Saudi Arabia.
	9 April	Following a referendum, the Republic of South Ossetia changes its name to the Republic of South Ossetia – the State of Alania.
	21 February	The Nagorno-Karabakh Republic changes its name to the Republic of Artsakh a day after a constitutional referendum takes place. The Republic of Azerbaijan continues to consider Nagorno-Karabakh as part of its sovereign territory, a position shared by the United Nations.[9][10]
	29 January	The Islamic Republic of The Gambia changes its name back to the Republic of The Gambia.[11][12]
2016	2 May	The Czech Republic votes to adopt Czechia as its official short-form name in English.[13]
2015	16 December	The International Court of Justice (ICJ) cedes 3 km2 to Costa Rica, resolving the Costa Rica–Nicaragua San Juan River border dispute with Nicaragua.[14]
	11 December	By presidential decree, the Republic of The Gambia changes its name to the Islamic Republic of The Gambia.[15][16]
	12 November	Pakistan formally agrees to lease its Gwadar Port to China until 2059.[17]
	6 June	India and Bangladesh exchange 162 enclaves along their borders, simplifying the border.[18]
	8 May	Niger and Burkina Faso, in continuation with the implementation of the judgement of the International Court of Justice concerning the 2013 Burkina Faso–Niger Frontier Dispute case, agreed to exchange 18 towns over the following year (Burkina Faso to gain 14, Niger to gain four).[19]
	21 March	After the 2014–15 Yemeni coup d'état, the capital of Yemen is provisionally moved from Sana'a to Aden.
2014	23 September	The maritime border between the United States and Niue was defined.[20] The treaty was signed on 13 May 1997, but it was not ratified by the United States until at least 2002, and the United Nations stated it entered into force on this date.[21]
	11 May	The Donetsk People's Republic and Luhansk People's Republic declare their independence from Ukraine following a status referendum. Donetsk and Luhansk are proclaimed as their capitals. The referendum's results and the so-called republics' declarations were internationally unrecognized.
	18 March	The Republic of Crimea was annexed by the Russian Federation as two separate federal entities: the Republic of Crimea and the city of federal significance Sevastopol. Ukraine itself and much of the international community maintain that Crimea is illegally occupied by Russia and legally remains an integral region of Ukraine.[22]
	27 January	The maritime dispute between Chile and Peru is resolved.[23]
2013	24 October	The Republic of Cape Verde decrees the official English-language rendering of its name to be the Republic of Cabo Verde,[24] following precedents set by Côte d'Ivoire and Timor-Leste (neither of which use English as an official language).
	28 September	The United Federated States of Bangsamoro Republik ceases to exist with the loss of Zamboanga City.[25]
	27 July	The United Federated States of Bangsamoro Republik declares independence from the Philippines and claims all of Malaysian Borneo.[26]
	16 April	A border dispute between Niger and Burkina Faso is finally resolved, resulting in minor changes to the previously recognized border.
	7 January	The Libyan National Congress unofficially changes the name of the country from Libya to the State of Libya, which will be used until a new constitution is adopted.[27]
2012	29 November	The United Nations votes to upgrade the status of Palestine from "entity" to "non-member observer state," effectively granting it recognition.[28]
	19 November	Judgment of the ICJ about the maritime dispute between Nicaragua and Colombia.[29]
	20 August	The Somali Republic changes its name to the Federal Republic of Somalia.
	12 July	The State of Azawad capitulates and is taken over by Ansar Dine, an Islamist group aiming for establishing Mali as an Islamist state, effectively being reabsorbed by the Republic of Mali.[30]
	26 May	Georgia moves its legislative capital from Tbilisi to Kutaisi. Tbilisi remains the administrative capital.
	6 April	Azawad proclaims its independence from the Republic of Mali as the State of Azawad[31] with Timbuktu as its capital.
	1 January	The Hungarian Republic changes its name to Hungary.[32]
2011	31 December	Samoa and Tokelau switch to the western side of the International Date Line, skipping 30 December entirely.[33]
	23 October	Libya supersedes the Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya after its defeat at the Battle of Sirte by the National Transitional Council.
	1 September	Due to the loss of Tripoli on 27 August, the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya moves its capital from Tripoli to Sirte.
	27 August	The National Transitional Council takes over Tripoli, moving its capital from Benghazi to Tripoli.
	9 July	Southern Sudan gains independence from Sudan as the Republic of South Sudan after a referendum the previous January, with Juba as its capital.
	27 February	After the Libyan Civil War started on 15 February, the National Transitional Council was formed to act as "the political face of the revolution", based in Benghazi.[34]
	2 February	The Republic of the Fiji Islands changes its name back to the Republic of Fiji.
	11 January	The People's Republic of China has received 1,158 square kilometres (447 sq mi) from Tajikistan after a final ratification of a treaty ceding it[35]
2010	21 October	The Union of Myanmar changes its name to the Republic of the Union of Myanmar.
	10 October	The Kingdom of the Netherlands dissolves the Netherlands Antilles and makes Curaçao and Sint Maarten two of its four constituent countries. Bonaire, Saba, and Sint Eustatius become special municipalities of the Netherlands.

 

 

2000s[edit]

Year	Date	Event
2009	1 September	The United Kingdom changes the name of the British Overseas Territory of Saint Helena and Dependencies to Saint Helena, Ascension and Tristan da Cunha. Jamestown on Saint Helena remains the capital.
	7 February	The Republic of Bolivia changes its name to the Plurinational State of Bolivia. La Paz and Sucre remain the capitals.
2008	27 August	The Russian Federation recognizes the independence of the Republic of South Ossetia and the Republic of Abkhazia from Georgia. Georgia and much of the international community maintain that they are both were illegally occupied by Russia during Russo-Georgian War and legally remain integral regions of Georgia. Their capitals are Tskhinval and Sukhumi, respectively.
	28 May	The State of Nepal changes its name to the Federal Democratic Republic of Nepal. Kathmandu remains the capital.
	17 February	The Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija declares its independence from the Republic of Serbia as the Republic of Kosovo. Priština remains the capital. Serbia maintains that Kosovo remains a part of Serbia.
2007	22 October	The Republic of Montenegro changes its name to Montenegro. Podgorica remains the capital.
	21 February	The French Republic separates the Overseas Collectivity of Saint-Barthélemy and the Overseas Collectivity of Saint-Martin from the Overseas Region of Guadeloupe. Gustavia and Marigot are the capitals respectively.
	15 January	The Kingdom of Nepal changes its name to the State of Nepal. Kathmandu remains the capital.
2006	7 October	The Republic of Palau moves its capital from Koror to Ngerulmud.
	14 August	The Federal Republic of Nigeria transfers sovereignty of Bakassi to the Republic of Cameroon.
	5 June	The Republic of Serbia supersedes the State Union of Serbia and Montenegro. Belgrade remains the capital.
	3 June	Montenegro secedes from the State Union of Serbia and Montenegro as the Republic of Montenegro. Podgorica remains the capital.
2005	6 November	The Union of Myanmar moves its capital from Yangon to Naypyidaw.
2004	1 September	The Secretariat of the Antarctic Treaty administering Antarctica and all lands and waters south of the 60th parallel south establishes its headquarters in Buenos Aires, Argentina.
	27 February	The French Republic elevates the Overseas Collectivity of French Polynesia to the Overseas Country of French Polynesia. Papeetē remains the capital.
	4 January	The Islamic State of Afghanistan changes its name to the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan. Kabul remains the capital.
2003	26 May	The Rwandese Republic changes its name to the Republic of Rwanda. Kigali remains the capital.
	28 March	The French Republic revises its constitution. New polities include:
		The Overseas Region of Réunion. Saint-Denis remains the capital. The Overseas Territory of French Southern and Antarctic Lands. Port-aux-Français remains the administrative center.
		The Overseas Collectivity of French Polynesia. Papeetē remains the capital. The Overseas Collectivity of Wallis and Futuna. Mata-Utu remains the capital.
		The Overseas Region of Guadeloupe. Basse-Terre remains the capital. The Overseas Region of Martinique. Fort-de-France remains the capital. The Overseas Collectivity of Saint-Pierre and Miquelon. Saint-Pierre remains the capital.
		The Overseas Region of Guyane (French Guiana). Cayenne remains the capital.
	4 February	The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia changes its name to the State Union of Serbia and Montenegro. Belgrade remains the capital.
2002	21 May	The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland changes the title of each of its British Dependent Territories to that of a British Overseas Territory. The citizens of each British Overseas Territory gain full British citizenship.
	20 May	East Timor gains independence from the Portuguese Republic as the Democratic Republic of Timor-Leste. East Timor was occupied by Indonesia in 1975, and was placed under United Nations administration in 1999. Dili remains the capital.
	10 March	The Union of the Comoros reabsorbs the de facto independent State of Anjouan and the Democratic Republic of Mohéli. Mutsamudu and Fomboni yield to Moroni as the capital.
	14 February	The State of Bahrain changes its name to the Kingdom of Bahrain. Manama remains the capital.
2001	23 December	The Federal Islamic Republic of the Comoros changes its name to the Union of the Comoros. Moroni remains the capital.
	13 November	The Islamic State of Afghanistan supersedes the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. Kabul remains the capital.
	1 July	The "temporarily independent" Puntland State of Somalia adopts a new constitution explicitly identifying itself as part of the Somali Republic. Garowe yields to Mogadishu as the capital.
	January	Taloqan, the de facto capital of the Islamic State of Afghanistan government, falls to the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. The capital moves to Fayzabad.
2000	16 July	Somalia changes its name to the Somali Republic. Mogadishu remains the capital.
	11 June	Colombia returns its capital city's name from Santa Fe de Bogotá to Bogotá, Distrito Capital.[36]
	6 February	The Chechen Republic of Ichkeria capitulates and is reabsorbed by the Russian Federation. Ƶovxar-Ġala (Grozny) yields to Moscow as the capital.

 

 

 

Edited March 23, 2020 by zen