Reopening the debate on best chasers in ODIs

[Gollum]

Those who sing songs about Kohli's chasing greatness, why does he look so out of his depth in the following situations (chasing) :

 

1. WCs, especially the latter part.............You have got to agree WCs are the ultimate test for ODI batsmen, an arena where ODI ATGs like Viv, SRT, Bevan, Sanath, Crowe, Aravinda, MSD etc had some remarkable innings while chasing.  That column is blank for VK in spite of getting the flattest pitches in WC history in 2015. 

 

2. In tough pitches/against quality attacks...eg in the 2013 SA ODI series tour. They set us a target of 300+ every time but Kohli couldn't do much, could he? Spicy pitches, good fast bowling and the myth of Kohli's chasing prowess got busted. Another prominent example is CB Series in 2012 (against the hosts, not Sri Lanka) where he played like a novice against good fast, aggressive bowling on pitches that weren't featherbeds. In NZ and Eng (both 2014) he was strictly OK, nothing ATG about his innings there. He did what was expected of a decent batsman, nothing more nothing less. 

 

It seems to me that 95% of his so called great chases have come in meaningless matches on pattas against weak bowling attacks. I accept he is a great chaser in such situations but to be counted as the GOAT of chasing he needs to do more. If he can correct that in 2019 WC (or even a daredevil chase in 2021 CT SF/F) he can make a case for himself. He has already blown 2 chances in 2015 SF and the June 18 finals this year. Had he done something of note in either of those 2 matches, I would have respected him more. But he played 15 dot balls before throwing his wicket against Johnson in 2015. Against Pak he couldn't even touch most of the balls, got out after being dropped and responded with a smile while Amir was mouthing away at him. That was one of the most cowardly scenes I have seen on a cricketing field. Can you imagine Viv or SRT being humiliated so badly and then laughing/smiling away at the bowler after getting dismissed? They have some dignity and ego, some goddamn professional pride....VK was like Mr Slave to Amir's Mr Garrison that day. 

Edited September 25, 2017 by Gollum

[Vilander]

Sachin fans = ghatis are truely pathetic man..they will consider a particular period in his career and claim he is better than others their entire career - lol why not use a period within viv and Kohli's career haha ? 

 

why are sachin fans so delusional ? Saeed Anwar > Sachin in chases :)..according to stats.

[maniac]

Just now, Vilander said:

Sachin fans = ghatis are truely pathetic man..they will consider a particular period in his career and claim he is better than others their entire career - lol why not use a period within viv and Kohli's career haha ? 

 

why are sachin fans so delusional ? Saeed Anwar > Sachin in chases :)..according to stats.

Arrey anna, if you have a problem

with the article being crap(which I kind of agree with) then put your spin on it and express your views on the greatest chasers like I or some of the others have done. 

[maniac]

Just now, rkt.india said:

and you forgot Michael Hussey who played the same role of Bevan. 

I  mentioned Hussey

[Vilander]

Just now, maniac said:

Arrey anna, if you have a problem

with the article being crap(which I kind of agree with) then put your spin on it and express your views on the greatest chasers like I or some of the others have done. 

no sorry, i like exposing ghatipana 

[Vilander]

14 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Those who sing songs about Kohli's chasing greatness, why does he look so out of his depth in the following situations (chasing) :

 

1. WCs, especially the latter part.............You have got to agree WCs are the ultimate test for ODI batsmen, an arena where ODI ATGs like Viv, SRT, Bevan, Sanath, Crowe, Aravinda, MSD etc had some remarkable innings while chasing.  That column is blank for VK in spite of getting the flattest pitches in WC history in 2015. 

 

2. In tough pitches/against quality attacks...eg in the 2013 SA ODI series tour. They set us a target of 300+ every time but Kohli couldn't do much, could he? Spicy pitches, good fast bowling and the myth of Kohli's chasing prowess got busted. Another prominent example is CB Series in 2012 (against the hosts, not Sri Lanka) where he played like a novice against good fast, aggressive bowling on pitches that weren't featherbeds. In NZ and Eng (both 2014) he was strictly OK, nothing ATG about his innings there. He did what was expected of a decent batsman, nothing more nothing less. 

 

It seems to me that 95% of his so called great chases have come in meaningless matches on pattas against weak bowling attacks. I accept he is a great chaser in such situations but to be counted as the GOAT of chasing he needs to do more. If he can correct that in 2019 WC (or even a daredevil chase in 2021 CT SF/F) he can make a case for himself. He has already blown 2 chances in 2015 SF and the June 18 finals this year. Had he done something of note in either of those 2 matches, I would have respected him more. But he played 15 dot balls before throwing his wicket against Johnson in 2015. Against Pak he couldn't even touch most of the balls, got out after being dropped and responded with a smile while Amir was mouthing away at him. That was one of the most cowardly scenes I have seen on a cricketing field. Can you imagine Viv or SRT being humiliated so badly and then laughing/smiling away at the bowler after getting dismissed? They have some dignity and ego, some goddamn professional pride....VK was like Mr Slave to Amir's Mr Garrison that day. 

golum i know you are one of the dudes who got hurt in ct final, but its not a very important tournament for many teams and fans to start with and that shows on the players, and it was just one game and every top side has ability to apply score board pressure, i know the way he was laughing at the end might have been a bit of over compensation but Kohli is Kohli, he loves Anuksha and Sashtri uncle what else do you expect from him ? he is a wannabe, but better chaser than Sachin Tendulkar.

[Anoop K]

2 hours ago, Rasgulla said:

Only been 1 in Final and he did well forming a 83 runs partnership with Gambhir where he scored very import 35.. Didn't choke like sachin didHis both scores in 2 WCs doesn't even addup to 35 that virat scored in 1 Wc final 

Seems you didn't read it carefully. I asked the record of Virat in all the finals he has played.  Sachin averages  55 in finals compared to Virat's 20+ avg.  Accept it or not Virat is a choker in ODI finals and semis. 

[SK_IH]

16 minutes ago, Vilander said:

golum i know you are one of the dudes who got hurt in ct final, but its not a very important tournament for many teams and fans to start with and that shows on the players, and it was just one game and every top side has ability to apply score board pressure, i know the way he was laughing at the end might have been a bit of over compensation but Kohli is Kohli, he loves Anuksha and Sashtri uncle what else do you expect from him ? he is a wannabe, but better chaser than Sachin Tendulkar.

true,this gollum guy has not been able to overcome the defeat, just the kind of ind fans pakistanis love 

Edited September 25, 2017 by SK_IH

[Vilander]

9 minutes ago, SK_IH said:

true,this gollum guy has not been able to overcome the defeat, just the kind of ind fans pakistanis love 

lol cant fault them on that.

[Tibarn]

It would be helpful to see performance in a team's successful chase vs in a team's unsuccessful chase. That would help show how crucial that player was to wins. 

 

I would also want to see that filtered for opposition strength. 

[Gollum]

20 hours ago, SK_IH said:

true,this gollum guy has not been able to overcome the defeat, just the kind of ind fans pakistanis love 

That was the greatest sporting massacre since FO 2008 F. If we still don't carry scars of that massacre, it is abnormal. It took me 9 years( AO 2017) to overcome the memories of the FO final. It will take time for me to forget June 18th, I was in utter ruins for almost a whole month after that much. Muslims in my neighborhood bursting crackers that day didn't help matters either. Unless we can avenge that loss with a 150+ run win against them in a WC finals, there won't be closure. 

[Laaloo]

12 minutes ago, Gollum said:

That was the greatest sporting massacre since FO 2008 F. If we still don't carry scars of that massacre, it is abnormal. It took me 9 years( AO 2017) to overcome the memories of the FO final. It will take time for me to forget June 18th, I was in utter ruins for almost a whole month after that much. Muslims in my neighborhood bursting crackers that day didn't help matters either. Unless we can avenge that loss with a 150+ run win against them in a WC finals, there won't be closure. 

you need to go see a shrink or something. 

[SK_IH]

43 minutes ago, Gollum said:

That was the greatest sporting massacre since FO 2008 F. If we still don't carry scars of that massacre, it is abnormal. It took me 9 years( AO 2017) to overcome the memories of the FO final. It will take time for me to forget June 18th, I was in utter ruins for almost a whole month after that much. Muslims in my neighborhood bursting crackers that day didn't help matters either. Unless we can avenge that loss with a 150+ run win against them in a WC finals, there won't be closure. 

haha too emotional brother,chillax 

[putrevus]

CT finals was a painful loss and I am still not over it, I still wonder how the heck they beat us.They had no business of winning that match. Indians have lost at least three major cups which they should have won. 

 

2014 t20 finals and 2016 t20 semis (thanks to Ashwin's no ball) and CT finals.India had no business of losing these matches.Until Kohli wins both trophies we can't get over them.

Edited September 26, 2017 by putrevus

[maniac]

59 minutes ago, Gollum said:

That was the greatest sporting massacre since FO 2008 F. If we still don't carry scars of that massacre, it is abnormal. It took me 9 years( AO 2017) to overcome the memories of the FO final. It will take time for me to forget June 18th, I was in utter ruins for almost a whole month after that much. Muslims in my neighborhood bursting crackers that day didn't help matters either. Unless we can avenge that loss with a 150+ run win against them in a WC finals, there won't be closure. 

Greatest sporting massacre is an exaggeration...one of the greatest upsets or shock wins  in recent times...Sure 100% agree...didn't see that coming and yes took me

a while to get over it as well but the bigger concern as @putrevus said above is choking in important games in tournaments that we should have won like a cakewalk...ct included...Wt20 2014 and Wt20 2016.

 

WC2015 sure I can live with that because the Aussie team did look invincible...would have been upset had we lost to Nzl or someone but it was something I could get over.

 

but look at the teams we lost to Pak,Sl and WI all 3 teams leagues below us

[putrevus]

@maniac You are right WC 2015 we can accept that loss as they had better team. I still feel Kohli did not have trust in bowlers as they failed him in big spots especially t20 world cups so he chose to bowl first when he should have batted.Even broken clock is right sometimes that is what happened to Pakistan in CT.They are a piss poor team which we should be spanking 95 times out of 100.

[maniac]

3 minutes ago, putrevus said:

@maniac You are right WC 2015 we can accept that loss as they had better team. I still feel Kohli did not have trust in bowlers as they failed him in big spots especially t20 world cups so he chose to bowl first when he should have batted.Even broken clock is right sometimes that is what happened to Pakistan in CT.They are a piss poor team which we should be spanking 95 times out of 100.

Yeah...also the fact that we choked batting first in Wt20 2014,couldn't defend against against WI hacks and then to Pak is a concern....I will be super nervous with India in the knockouts now,we are almost becoming the new SA,where we look invincible in the group stages and then get knocked out by sun standard teams

[SK_IH]

14 minutes ago, maniac said:

Greatest sporting massacre is an exaggeration...one of the greatest upsets or shock wins  in recent times...Sure 100% agree...didn't see that coming and yes took me

a while to get over it as well but the bigger concern as @putrevus said above is choking in important games in tournaments that we should have won like a cakewalk...ct included...Wt20 2014 and Wt20 2016.

 

WC2015 sure I can live with that because the Aussie team did look invincible...would have been upset had we lost to Nzl or someone but it was something I could get over.

 

but look at the teams we lost to Pak,Sl and WI all 3 teams leagues below us

lol wi in t20 cricket is way ahead of our side ,especially in that tournament,toss played a big role as well

agree about loising to pak n lanka,those were major upsets 

[putrevus]

3 minutes ago, SK_IH said:

lol wi in t20 cricket is way ahead of our side ,especially in that tournament,toss played a big role as well

agree about loising to pak n lanka,those were major upsets 

No they are not especially on spinning wickets.They got two major players out if Ashwin did not bowl that no ball India was winning that match and cup.

[Gollum]

1 hour ago, maniac said:

Greatest sporting massacre is an exaggeration...one of the greatest upsets or shock wins  in recent times...Sure 100% agree...didn't see that coming and yes took me

a while to get over it as well but the bigger concern as @putrevus said above is choking in important games in tournaments that we should have won like a cakewalk...ct included...Wt20 2014 and Wt20 2016.

 

WC2015 sure I can live with that because the Aussie team did look invincible...would have been upset had we lost to Nzl or someone but it was something I could get over.

 

but look at the teams we lost to Pak,Sl and WI all 3 teams leagues below us

What irked me about the 2017 CT F defeat was the margin of defeat. This was the biggest ever margin of defeat in the history of any ICC tournament final (men, women, U-19, ODI, T20), perhaps only the 1999 WC F had a similar scoreline. Even 2003 WC F wasn't this bad because that came against  a truly great side who had our number in ODI cricket, playing in a country (SA) where the opponents had a huge advantage over us based on past record. In spite of that we were ahead as per D/L at some point with thunderstorms looming. I never really believe we had a chance that day even had we played our best cricket and Aus their worst, the forces were simply not evenly matched.

 

But in the 2017 CT final, it seemed we forgot to hold the bat/ball or dare I say it looked like 7-8 Indian players had come together to fix the match. I am yet to see such incompetency on a cricket field and our players were seemingly enjoying the gangbang. VK was smiling and laughing away while batting, Amir after getting him out cursed him like hell, as did all their players when our tailenders were batting. The post match camaraderie between the teams was scandalous. No other team would behave like that after getting so badly beaten in a finals, what VK and UV did there deserved a 1 year ban and I am being kind. That was the single most lacklustre day in Indian cricketing history and because of the political/national security situation it seemed ten times worse. Those who simply shrug this debacle off by various justifications and rationalization, I simply don't buy it. Because personally I was affected very badly by that day and the month following that match was perhaps the saddest month for me w.r.t following cricket. We trail in the H2H against Pak but so long we had the WC streak. But this result nullified our big match streak and that hurts like hell.