Sachin Tendulkar v Virat Kohli - who is better ODI batsman?

[rkt.india]

4 minutes ago, goose said:

When Tendulkar was in his pomp there was very little chat about his numbers.

but that does not make him the best.  it is the numbers that make one better in the end.  I still will sasy SRT is the ultimate of batsmanship, but Kohli is the ultimate at how to make runs.

Edited October 31, 2018 by rkt.india

[Global.Baba]

4 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Jaysuriya pioneered the modern one day cricket.  still i dont rate jaysuriya that high.  He just thrashed Indian bowlers.  Dhawan is certainly better than Jaysuriya.  Jaysuriya could be more destructive but was inconsistent like Sehwag.  i dont rate Sehwwa as ODI batsman too.  Consistency is imperative for me.

No way anyway that’s another debate.

[Nonbeliever]

19 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Jaysuriya pioneered the modern one day cricket.  still i dont rate jaysuriya that high.  He just thrashed Indian bowlers.  Dhawan is certainly better than Jaysuriya.  Jaysuriya could be more destructive but was inconsistent like Sehwag.  i dont rate Sehwwa as ODI batsman too.  Consistency is imperative for me.

Basically we have Sachin and Vivian opening the ininigs followed by Bradman right now and dhoni at six.  Raydu with his average of 50 is an atg.  And jhadav is much better than yuvraj striking over at 106 with average of 42. Whoa we are playing with an all time odi world eleven.

Edited October 31, 2018 by Nonbeliever

[Global.Baba]

On an unrelated note Jayasuriya and co terrorized our bowlers so much that in the 90s, I believe it was in a Mithunda movie the villains were called Jaya Surya and “Rana” Tunga

[Suhaan]

38 minutes ago, Global.Baba said:

It’s weird. Rohit Sharma has 3 200s and came close to it plenty of other times  but we are the first ones to say Viv Richards was better which obviously is a fact. However the ones arguing pretty much in favor of Kohli right now will be the first to point that out.

 

No one rates Dhawan over say someone like Jayasuriya even though Dhawan has better stats and 100 rate.

 

However with Kohli they pull every stat to prove that he is better than Sachin  pretty sure it is not love for Kohli

 

 

Very sure about rkt but but but others have adopted kohli for their convenience

[Suhaan]

7 minutes ago, Nonbeliever said:

Basically we have Sachin and Vivian opening the ininigs followed by Bradman right now and dhoni at six.  Raydu with his average of 50 is an atg.  And jhadav is much better than yuvraj striking over at 106 with average of 42. Whoa we are playing with an all time odi world eleven.

Anyday

[goose]

24 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

but that does not make him the best.  it is the numbers that make one better in the end.  I still will sasy SRT is the ultimate of batsmanship, but Kohli is the ultimate at how to make runs.

numbers and stats are the refuge of watchers not otherwise impressed. Kohli is a better version of Ponting. a mental monster. the Ronaldo to Tendulkar's Messi. 

[Global.Baba]

5 minutes ago, goose said:

numbers and stats are the refuge of watchers not otherwise impressed. Kohli is a better version of Ponting. a mental monster. the Ronaldo to Tendulkar's Messi. 

Not yet. But almost at his level already and obviously will surpass him soon

[goose]

33 minutes ago, Global.Baba said:

Not yet. But almost at his level already and obviously will surpass him soon

agree. I mean that's the kind of guy he is emulating. Tendulkar was something else.

[Jimmy Cliff]

4 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

SL in 1996 was not at their strongest.  They were underdogs in 1996 that is why they did not do much in 90s after WC. SL were at their strongest in 2000s and 2010s before their ATgs in Sanga, Jaya, Murli, Dilshan retired.  it is like saying India were at their strongest in 1983.

I see. Give us an example of a Lankan side that Kohli played that was stronger than their 1996 side. 

 

 

[Laaloo]

2 hours ago, Global.Baba said:

It’s weird. Rohit Sharma has 3 200s and came close to it plenty of other times  but we are the first ones to say Viv Richards was better which obviously is a fact. However the ones arguing pretty much in favor of Kohli right now will be the first to point that out.

 

No one rates Dhawan over say someone like Jayasuriya even though Dhawan has better stats and 100 rate.

 

However with Kohli they pull every stat to prove that he is better than Sachin  pretty sure it is not love for Kohli

 

 

[sandeep]

8 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

Batting averages in ODIs  (  rounded off )

 

Kohli       60

 

ABDV     54

Azam     52

Amla      50

Rohit      47

Warner  43

 

These are not " similar big numbers ".

 

Huge difference actually.

 

 

 

ODI  Batting averages  (  rounded off )

 

Bevan            53

Sachin           45

Kallis             44

Hayden         44

Ponting         42

Sangakkara  42

Ganguly        41

Lara              40

 

Not a case of numbers head and shoulders ahead of Sachin's peer group.

 

 

Bevan is an outlier due to a massive number of not outs, and the fact that he got to "finish" games that were already finished by that top order.  Same reason why Ambatli Rayudu also has a very high average. 

 

Also, when I meant numbers, I was referring to SR and average together.  Compare those to Sachin's peers and you are likely to find him... peerless.

 

What is Rohit's average as opener?  His numbers are vastly skewed due to his poor results in the middle-order.   I think you will find his numbers as opener quite close to Virat's.

 

Its always misleading to compare a player in the midst of his white-hot prime, to a player who has completed his career, including the tail-end, where most if not all players fade away a bit.  Virat could well have a couple of years like Dhoni towards the end, which will bring down his cumulative numbers.  Won't make him a lesser player in my eyes, but just making the point about stats and respective context.  

Edited October 31, 2018 by sandeep

[sandeep]

8 hours ago, rkt.india said:

Lara, Ponting, Hayden, Clark, Sarwan, Sanga, Ganguly, mark waugh were doing that as well during SRT's era.  

Please compare both avg and SR.   You are dearly mistaken if you think that the likes of Sarwan came anywhere near Tendy's class in ODIs.  A brief purple patch doesn't merit a comparison. 

[sandeep]

5 hours ago, rkt.india said:

and Ganguly too scored a 100 before SRT.

Do you seriously believe Ganguly was a better batsman than SRT?  in any format?  

 

Wanting to 'win' an argument is one thing, but this? really?

[sandeep]

8 hours ago, rkt.india said:

Sachin has not outshone any of his peers, TBH.  His biggest strength was his longevity and not outshining others.   There are plenty of batsmen who averaged in 40s during his time as well.  In fact, Dhoni, Hussey outshone him for a considerable period of time from mid 2000s.    

Comparing post-elbow injury Sachin, i.e. mid-2000s to guys like Dhoni and Hussey at their peak.  Classic.  Next you will be telling me how Dravid was "better than Sachin" giving me stats from the 2000s.  Forgetting the fact that Dravid was unceremoniously dumped out of the ODI team and only made his way back after he put on 'keeping gloves - a team-first act that also saved his ODI career.  

 

[sandeep]

5 hours ago, velu said:

soon some sachin fan here will start hyping henry olanga and @Muloghonto bhai will say that zimbabwe bowling of 1990s was close to world class  

Stick your tongue out all you want, but Zimbabwe of the 90s would merciless beat the  ever-living shiyte out of current day SL, WI, ZIM, PAK and Bang.  

[Laaloo]

When I posted last night, it was 8 pages. Now it's on the 11th page. @Trichromatic you should be happy.

 

 

Sachin

[rtmohanlal]

if we go thru the  list of batsmen with highest avg:es in one day cricket there are 17 batsmen who debuted after 2004( the year in which SRT's peak  period  ends & in which Bevan played his last game) and   has been averaging  45+. Their str: rates too are relatively very higher. On the other hand there are only 2 batsmen  that debuted  in the  early-late 90s  that avg:ed 45+, namely SRT who opened from Mar 27 94 & went on to score 16353 runs with 47.5 avg: &  str: of 88  and ' Bevan who avg:ed  53.5 with the help of 34.18% of not outs  at very low str: of  74 .  This lays into rest the difference in general bowling quality  level that existed between both these periods .

Edited October 31, 2018 by rtmohanlal

[rtmohanlal]

some people are seen questioning the quality of ZIM team of the late 90s. I once compared the stats of the ZIM players of that time with that of NZL team  in more or less the same period by filtering out players  from 3 or 4 matches    played in the late 90s  for both teams.

I calculated the rough 'sum of batting avg': & 'sum of bowl avg:'  of both these set of players and  then the difference. ZIM players came out on top by a convincing margin.

[Global.Baba]

51 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Bevan is an outlier due to a massive number of not outs, and the fact that he got to "finish" games that were already finished by that top order.  

Even though I believe we are on the same side here and I agree with most of your remaining post, the highlighted is  not entirely a correct statement.

 

Bevan became a odi legend for finishing games when the asking rate was almost 6+ in the final 10-15 which was almost a lost cause in those days with his clever calculation and running especially during top order collapses. 

 

Those 200-250 targets might look lame now but they were pretty tall ask especially the games Bevan successfully chased down with the tail/lower middle order

Edited October 31, 2018 by Global.Baba