Sachin Tendulkar v Virat Kohli - who is better ODI batsman?

[vvvslaxman]

41 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

Bowling quality in ODIs of 90s is overblown. It's wasn't better than modern day.

 

Bumrah, Stac and other ODI bowlers are as good as their counterparts from 90s.

 

What's different is:

1. 2 new balls

2. 0 swing in most of the matches

3. No old balls which will stop on bat and induce uppish shot

4. 0 reverse swing

5. No ball tampering

6. No turn in most of the matches

7. Lesser no of 150kph deliveries

 

Reverse those factors and any decent bowler will make life difficult for bowlers even today as we have seen. It's not frequent but it happens.

 

Modern day batsmen are better at

1. Handling pace. Batsmen of 90s were blown away with pace more often than modern bats.

2. Handling yorker or full length balls

3. Improvising

4. Fitness

5. Big shots - they have practiced and perfected this.

 

Modern day bowlers are better at

1. Handling flat pitch

2. Trying more pitch independent variations

 

Gap between top players and average ones has increased a lot now. That's why we see bowlers averaging in low 20s, and batsmen still averaging in 50s. That comes with very high averaging bowlers and lot low averaging batsman. I don't have numbers to back this up. But I am sure someone can dig this up.

 

Modern day low averaging bowlers won't be averaging below 15 in 90s, but lot of high averaging bowlers will have better avg. Similarly batsmen will have reduced average.

 

Batsmen of 90s won't be simply averaging 50+ in 2010s, just because their game wasn't suited for this type of play.

 

What was score of 170 in 90s is probably 150 in 2010s. But what was 280 in 1990s is 350 now.

 

Batsmen know that they can trust conditions and have built their strength according to that. They can choose to play shots on ground without worrying about ball stopping. They can play waiting game as they know that they can hit at will at later stages. This game was first started by Dhoni for India and other batsmen have just mastered it.

 

 

Jaysuriya even in that era massacred bowlers. 42 runs in the first 3 overs. I mean even now it is a staggering start. I don't see Indians going at 8 an hour in the first 10 now. It purely comes down to attitude and ability regardless of the era. Simon O Donnell made 18 ball 50 way back in 1990. Since then only 4 players have beaten that. One is Jaysuriya other one is ABDV. Both freaks.

You cannot hit a six just because you have a better bat.  Sweet spot of the bat was always the same. Probably that area was slightly lesser. But good batsmen regardless of the era would  always find the sweet spot. Nobody is carrying 5 lb bat now. Pretty much 3 lb or less bat. This bat theory is slightly overplayed. Bigger grounds. Seriously? Pandya hit a 107 meter six in the CT final. You really think reduction of 5 meters would make a difference?  

 

It is really funny to listen to people glorifying about the 90s. During the 90s they said the same.. "Batting was different in the 80s. In the 90s bats are better, grounds are smaller, pitches are flatter."  

 

Fact is we had flat pitch in all the era.  Guys like Kapil dev, Srikkanth, Richards proved that even in the 80s.  Kapil dev had a strike rate of 80 even in Tests.

[rtmohanlal]

9 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

These are not all time great ODI bowlers. They got to bowl to rubbish batsmen. You could look at that way as well. This is why stats cannot be used to judge these things. If Tendulkar plays now he is going to average 75 or what? No way. At best 55.

yes Desmond Haynes, Greenidge , Greg Chappel, Miandad & even Viv Richards all  were  rubbish batsmen when compared to Babar Azam, Root, Dhoni,Williamson,Dhawan  etc etc

[Insidious]

3 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

Bowling quality in ODIs of 90s is overblown. It's wasn't better than modern day.

 

Bumrah, Stac and other ODI bowlers are as good as their counterparts from 90s.

 

What's different is:

1. 2 new balls

2. 0 swing in most of the matches

3. No old balls which will stop on bat and induce uppish shot

4. 0 reverse swing

5. No ball tampering

6. No turn in most of the matches

7. Lesser no of 150kph deliveries

 

Reverse those factors and any decent bowler will make life difficult for bowlers even today as we have seen. It's not frequent but it happens.

 

Modern day batsmen are better at

1. Handling pace. Batsmen of 90s were blown away with pace more often than modern bats.

2. Handling yorker or full length balls

3. Improvising

4. Fitness

5. Big shots - they have practiced and perfected this.

 

Modern day bowlers are better at

1. Handling flat pitch

2. Trying more pitch independent variations

 

Gap between top players and average ones has increased a lot now. That's why we see bowlers averaging in low 20s, and batsmen still averaging in 50s. That comes with very high averaging bowlers and lot low averaging batsman. I don't have numbers to back this up. But I am sure someone can dig this up.

 

Modern day low averaging bowlers won't be averaging below 15 in 90s, but lot of high averaging bowlers will have better avg. Similarly batsmen will have reduced average.

 

Batsmen of 90s won't be simply averaging 50+ in 2010s, just because their game wasn't suited for this type of play.

 

What was score of 170 in 90s is probably 150 in 2010s. But what was 280 in 1990s is 350 now.

 

Batsmen know that they can trust conditions and have built their strength according to that. They can choose to play shots on ground without worrying about ball stopping. They can play waiting game as they know that they can hit at will at later stages. This game was first started by Dhoni for India and other batsmen have just mastered it.

 

 

You also forgot to add there were lot of 'day only' matches were played in 90s and early 00's in India, where the moisture on the pitch made batting difficult for the team batting first. I have seen Pollock and even mediocre bowler like rana naved ul Hassan greatly benefitted from that, whenever they played in India. We don't have this today with Day n night matches.

[express bowling]

7 hours ago, Nikola said:

Last 4 Years stats in ODI's.

 

Yes in terms of avg kohli is ahead but if you count runs per inning then Kohli has 58.04 and Rohit has 57.60. Centuries, Strike Rate similar. In ODI's pitches are flat almost everywhere in last 4 years so conditions not debatable. Rohit isn't one of the great and still is doing good in ODI's so how come difference is increased?

 

Staying not out is a big plus and highly creditable for top order batters if they are winning games for their teams.  An ensuing higher average of 9 points is not a small thing.

 

Runs per innings assume importance for lower middle order batters who have only a few balls to play and staying not out with a certain regularity is par for the course.

 

And Rohit is definitely on the way to becoming an ODI super great.

[vvvslaxman]

1 hour ago, rtmohanlal said:

yes Desmond Haynes, Greenidge , Greg Chappel, Miandad & even Viv Richards all  were  rubbish batsmen when compared to Babar Azam, Root, Dhoni,Williamson,Dhawan  etc etc

None of those batsmen played during Tendulkar's peak. Just you know Roger Binny took 18 wickets in 1983 world cup. Highest by any bowler. If you look at his bowling he is only marginally better than Stuart Binny. He also di well in the B&H champions trophy along with L Siva.  

Edited November 2, 2018 by vvvslaxman

[rtmohanlal]

23 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

None of those batsmen played during Tendulkar's peak. Just you know Roger Binny took 18 wickets in 1983 world cup. Highest by any bowler. If you look at his bowling he is only marginally better than Stuart Binny. He also di well in the B&H champions trophy along with L Siva.  

oh ... yes ... then Lara, Ponting,Kallis, Ganguly, Hayden ,Gilchrist ,M.Waugh etc can be considered  rubbish one day batsmen when compared to Babar Azam, Root, Dhoni,Williamson,Dhawan  etc etc

[Global.Baba]

1 hour ago, vvvslaxman said:

None of those batsmen played during Tendulkar's peak. Just you know Roger Binny took 18 wickets in 1983 world cup. Highest by any bowler. If you look at his bowling he is only marginally better than Stuart Binny. He also di well in the B&H champions trophy along with L Siva.  

By the same argument, if the pitches were so bowler friendly that even Binny can get 18 wickets and this is an era where there were bowlers like Imran,Kapil,Botham,Hadley, Lillee,Thompson, the WI fast bowling line up,Bob Willis, the Indian spin quartet etc etc. then even the batsmen of that era need to be appreciated.

[Cricketics]

I wwill seal the debate.

 

Tendulkar most complete batsman without any doubt with all the shots and less weakness and one of the greatest overall

 

Kohli close to complete batsman in ODI’s but not as complete as Tendulkar, howevwr, overall better temperament who has more impact on the match and the wins.

 

 

 

[Global.Baba]

1 minute ago, Cricketics said:

I wwill seal the debate.

 

Tendulkar most complete batsman without any doubt with all the shots and less weakness and one of the greatest overall

 

Kohli close to complete batsman in ODI’s but not as complete as Tendulkar, howevwr, overall better temperament who has more impact on the match and the wins.

 

 

 

How many big WC games did Kohli deliver in?

 

His best clutch knock was the Wt20 game vs Australia that’s about it.

[Cricketics]

51 minutes ago, Global.Baba said:

How many big WC games did Kohli deliver in?

 

His best clutch knock was the Wt20 game vs Australia that’s about it.

How you define big is important alsho. Not just ther term “quarter final” or semi semi final is important.

 

The games like the one against Pakistan in Adelaide 2015 are equally important where Kohli scored century and Insia won, few games later Pakistan turned the tide and came back strong to beat South Africa whom ndia had comprehensively beaten. 

 

Games like the one group game against Sri Lanka in 2007 world cup is also inportant where Tendulkar failed and got bowled to Dilhara Fernando, as India got knocked out later. 

 

Everythinf in world cup gets important.

 

Yes, Kohli doesn’t have the greatest record in knock out games, but his temperament is still better to me than most players in the world.  

 

Gambhir has better world cup final performance than Tendulkar, doesn’t mean overall he has better temperament than Kohli or Tendulkar. 

 

The more Kohli plays, you see more of him eventually improving his record in knock outs.

 

on topic, Kohli to me will always as a player will have better temperament hence, also in Test Cricket he is showing that with big runs the way he is adding

 

 

[rkt.india]

6 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

Bowling quality in ODIs of 90s is overblown. It's wasn't better than modern day.

 

Bumrah, Stac and other ODI bowlers are as good as their counterparts from 90s.

 

What's different is:

1. 2 new balls

2. 0 swing in most of the matches

3. No old balls which will stop on bat and induce uppish shot

4. 0 reverse swing

5. No ball tampering

6. No turn in most of the matches

7. Lesser no of 150kph deliveries

 

Which 150 kph bowlers we had in 90s? Lee debuted in 1999. Akhtar in 97 and both started to his 150 only in 2000s.

[express bowling]

3 hours ago, rtmohanlal said:

oh ... yes ... then Lara, Ponting,Kallis, Ganguly, Hayden ,Gilchrist ,M.Waugh etc can be considered  rubbish one day batsmen when compared to Babar Azam, Root, Dhoni,Williamson,Dhawan  etc etc

 

How does Dhoni get in this list  ?  He is one of the best ODI lower-middle order batsmen ever in ODIs.

 

And Kallis and Mark Waugh were nothing special as ODI batsmen.  Dhawan is much better as an ODI batsman than these two.

Edited November 2, 2018 by express bowling

[rkt.india]

6 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

How does Dhoni get in this list  ?  He is one of the best ODI lower-middle order batsman ever in ODIs.

 

And Kallis and Mark Waugh were nothing special as ODI batsmen.  Dhawan is much better as an ODI batsman than these two.

even root and williamson are two of the best batsmen currently. they both are as good as likes of Ponting. 

[express bowling]

22 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Which 150 kph bowlers we had in 90s? Lee debuted in 1999. Akhtar in 97 and both started to his 150 only in 2000s.

And 150 k bowling , if not accurate, can be a friend of the batter in ODIs.

 

 

[express bowling]

8 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

even root and williamson are two of the best batsmen currently. they both are as good as likes of Ponting. 

 

Yes.  Players retiring 10 years back or earlier, somehow seem to get better.

[Muloghonto]

7 hours ago, putrevus said:

In meaningless match where Sachin also played.He is one of the best odi bowlers.In what world Sachin had peak for twenty years.Noone said Sachin was not a great player.He is one of the best odi  players but not numero uno.Kohli is better.

Sorry, but no. Sachin is head and shoulders above ALL his contemporaries during his peak period when strike rate AND average is consiedered, Kohli is not, with ABDV right up there with him. 

Plus it is a statistical fact that Kohli plays in an era where 300+ scores are far more common than in Sachin's era. 

Also statistical fact that Sachin has faced far greater ODI bowlers ( for whom, ECONOMY rate is the main factor, not average) than Kohli can dream of. 

 

[rkt.india]

9 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Sorry, but no. Sachin is head and shoulders above ALL his contemporaries during his peak period when strike rate AND average is consiedered, Kohli is not, with ABDV right up there with him. 

Plus it is a statistical fact that Kohli plays in an era where 300+ scores are far more common than in Sachin's era. 

Also statistical fact that Sachin has faced far greater ODI bowlers ( for whom, ECONOMY rate is the main factor, not average) than Kohli can dream of. 

 

ER is directly proportional to batsmen's ability to strike.  He was best among his peers does not mean he is better than the best batsman today.  Kohli's biggest strength is his consistency with which he is scoring runs.  The guy is averaging close to 75 in the last 5 years and there is no one close to him at his peak. 

[Nikola]

27 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

ER is directly proportional to batsmen's ability to strike.  He was best among his peers does not mean he is better than the best batsman today.  Kohli's biggest strength is his consistency with which he is scoring runs.  The guy is averaging close to 75 in the last 5 years and there is no one close to him at his peak. 

Rohit being inconsistent & still is close to him. And he isn't even great player so how come he is scoring runs so easily? This clearly tells scoring runs & centuries is way to easy now than in past eras.

 

Edited November 2, 2018 by Nikola

[rtmohanlal]

2 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

How does Dhoni get in this list  ?  He is one of the best ODI lower-middle order batsmen ever in ODIs.

 

And Kallis and Mark Waugh were nothing special as ODI batsmen.  Dhawan is much better as an ODI batsman than these two.

i am not  at  all claiming that either of these set of batsmen are superior to the other set based on pure avg: s, str: etc , All I am saying is that a Ponting can't be  inferior to a Root just because his stats are so inferior and that to decide as to who   is the better of the 2 , a lot of analysis is needed based  on the conditions they played in. That's all

 

w.r.t Sachin & Kohli , I feel Sachin is still ahead at least by a  bit as of now.And the reasons for that I have already provided.  

[express bowling]

51 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

i am not  at  all claiming that either of these set of batsmen are superior to the other set based on pure avg: s, str: etc , All I am saying is that a Ponting can't be  inferior to a Root just because his stats are so inferior and that to decide as to who   is the better of the 2 , a lot of analysis is needed based  on the conditions they played in. That's all

 

w.r.t Sachin & Kohli , I feel Sachin is still ahead at least by a  bit as of now.And the reasons for that I have already provided.  

 

The good ODI batsmen of that era used to average 40 to 45 range.

 

The good ODI batsmen of this era are averaging 45 to 52.

 

That means an increase of around  7.

 

That means something like Kohli would be averaging around 53 in that era. That is how consistent he is.   

 

The only reason why I would not compare him with anybody yet is because he is in the middle of his career and this may change by the time he retires.