Why have Indian pacers, over the decades, bowled so few deliveries on the the off-stump to 5th stump lines ?

[rkt.india]

16 minutes ago, sandeep said:

This is very true.  What would be a probing line and length on a helpful track, will mercilessly get thwacked to the boundary by the likes of Sehwag and co. on Indian tracks.  So Indian pacers become habituated to bowl different lines...

also the lack of pace and bounce would ensure that edges would not carry to slips. but now things are changing.  we are seeing more bouncier pitches in India in places like Pune, Kolkata, Dharmshala, and Mumbai.

[speedheat]

1 hour ago, rkt.india said:

check hawkeye graphs on BCCI or ICC site or cricinfo. Need to hit the length that gets most wickets and that is moslty good length. Usually, good length is also called full length in layman's term.  A much taller bowler like Morkel can bowl a bit fuller because of his bounce.

Actually its full length which gives you most wickets, which is the area between 2m to 6m as shown in pic below in greenish colour  and all those website shows it as a good length which is actually a full length, good length as shown in red colour in below pic is actually a defensive length, if bounce is evn it takes lbw, bowled out of the equation, but its is very difficult to score of that length.

Edited January 31, 2018 by speedheat

[mishra]

55 minutes ago, speedheat said:

Actually its full length which gives you most wickets, which is the area between 2m to 6m as shown in pic below in greenish colour  and all those website shows it as a good length which is actually a full length, good length as shown in red colour in below pic is actually a defensive length, if bounce is evn it takes lbw, bowled out of the equation, but its is very difficult to score of that length.

When say a bastman stands, Ask him to take his bat in left hand and make a semi circle on pitch. That is his reach. Make sure you allways pitch outside that reach else batsman will whack your deliveries.

Once you have sorted unsafe zone. You dont want to bowl to bowl a line which is batsmans strong area i.e. enerally on middle and leg.

Now depending upon how a ball behaves after pitching, you can change the length . i.e. How far from that semi circle so that ball can get intended bounce and seam movement.

Rest all is more down to bowling to weakness  or bowling to field or bowling to plan or simply surprise

 

Good length is very good for decently tall , 80+ mile bowlers but if you are a regular player with  some seam/swng 65mile+ type, you are better off bowling just after end around head of full in above pictorial representation

 

 

[Rightarmfast]

2 hours ago, Tattieboy said:

One of the reasons in my view is that seam bowlers from an early age upto even Ranji Trophy players will  have mainly  practised / played on concrete and now artificial wickets.

With virtually no seam movement on these wickets Indian batsmen at a  very early age are confident of just hitting through the line of those balls . Indian seam bowlers are then forced to bowl more wicket to wicket . 

At first class Ranji Trophy level wickets are batting friendly and seamers still struggle to get much from offstump and outside line. 

 

Good observation! Spoken not like a tattie today!

[Rightarmfast]

I am sorry @express bowling bhai. I take the blame fully. But I promise, next time, I will train these bowlers properly!

[putrevus]

On 12/14/2017 at 11:34 AM, sandeep said:

Yes, but with better guidance regarding training, rehab, and action changes, he could have potentially done better. The raw skill and athleticism was there.   And the guy was a decent bat too.  

You need will power to do it, Lillee broke his back in 1970s was out of cricket for 12 months but worked his tail off to rework his action and become one of the greatest bowlers.

Irfan was getting easy money from IPL and he never worked hard to regain the spot in Indian team.Fast bowling is very hard work and not many people would want to keep working on it after they get some money.

This is where BCCI needs to step in and pick few bowlers and compensate them for not playing in IPL and let them concentrate on ODIs and Test cricket.

 

[putrevus]

On 12/10/2017 at 7:20 AM, Trichromatic said:

As if it is easy to be consistent on that line. Whenever they tried to bowl on that line, they drift to middle stump and get worked on to boundary.

 

That dents the confidence of bowler and then tries to go for safer line which is way outside off with all fielders packed there.

Spot on bowling consistently on that line is great skill and not many people have that skill.

[speedheat]

16 minutes ago, mishra said:

When say a bastman stands, Ask him to take his bat in left hand and make a semi circle on pitch. That is his reach. Make sure you allways pitch outside that reach else batsman will whack your deliveries.

Once you have sorted unsafe zone. You dont want to bowl to bowl a line which is batsmans strong area i.e. enerally on middle and leg.

Now depending upon how a ball behaves after pitching, you can change the length . i.e. How far from that semi circle so that ball can get intended bounce and seam movement.

Rest all is more down to bowling to weakness  or bowling to field or bowling to plan or simply surprise

 

Good length is very good for decently tall , 80+ mile bowlers but if you are a regular player with  some seam/swng 65mile+ type, you are better off bowling just after end around head of full in above pictorial representation

 

 

As shown in the pic above, 6 to 8m length corridor is the area which is out of the reach of batsman, very difficult to take singles of it hence a perfect length to contain the batsman, but in order to get wickets you have to pitch it in that greenish area which is also called as  aggressive lenghth  batters may whack it but more likely to get wicket, if you have pace you can try that length irrespective of swing but should also make sure  line of the ball finish within the stumps, should cramp the batsman, morris does that in IPL,bhuvi, starc, rabada are doing it, waquar did it in his playing days hence more successful than shoiab despite having less pace, shoib in my liking didn't bowl enough full balls was more of a short of good length bowler, ishant the hack is same too.

[sandeep]

20 minutes ago, putrevus said:

You need will power to do it, Lillee broke his back in 1970s was out of cricket for 12 months but worked his tail off to rework his action and become one of the greatest bowlers.

Irfan was getting easy money from IPL and he never worked hard to regain the spot in Indian team.Fast bowling is very hard work and not many people would want to keep working on it after they get some money.

This is where BCCI needs to step in and pick few bowlers and compensate them for not playing in IPL and let them concentrate on ODIs and Test cricket.

 

Sure.  But put yourself in Irfan's position, and wouldn't you be tempted to channel your energies and what's left of your cricketing career to an arena where you get millions for 10% of the work, as opposed to doing 10 times the work on a hope and prayer at getting accolades in test cricket?  

 

Its easy to pass judgement.  But the incentives need to be re-aligned if you want the best athletes to invest their time, effort, bodies and careers in the hundreds of hours of hard yards that are needed for test cricket.  And that's before they even step on the field in whites.  

[putrevus]

1 minute ago, sandeep said:

Sure.  But put yourself in Irfan's position, and wouldn't you be tempted to channel your energies and what's left of your cricketing career to an arena where you get millions for 10% of the work, as opposed to doing 10 times the work on a hope and prayer at getting accolades in test cricket?  

 

Its easy to pass judgement.  But the incentives need to be re-aligned if you want the best athletes to invest their time, effort, bodies and careers in the hundreds of hours of hard yards that are needed for test cricket.  And that's before they even step on the field in whites.  

I am not passing any judgement, Kohli is getting more money from IPL too , why he is working his butt off to improve in tests.It is all about drive to become better not many have it.Nothing wrong in it but don't put the blame on system.

 

I would put 95% blame on Irfan and 5% blame on system.BCCI has given them all the facilities and means to access best coaches/facilities.It is not like he never had any exposure.

These youngsters need to understand unless they improve their skills constantly they will not last long in IPL too.

 

[sandeep]

20 minutes ago, putrevus said:

I am not passing any judgement, Kohli is getting more money from IPL too , why he is working his butt off to improve in tests.It is all about drive to become better not many have it.Nothing wrong in it but don't put the blame on system.

 

I would put 95% blame on Irfan and 5% blame on system.BCCI has given them all the facilities and means to access best coaches/facilities.It is not like he never had any exposure.

These youngsters need to understand unless they improve their skills constantly they will not last long in IPL too.

 

I'm less worried about the current generation, and batsmen in general.  The adjustments and physical challenges for batsmen are a lower barrier, than the ones for bowlers.   

 

Bowling is a hard-work physical skill, dependent on building muscle memory for particular lengths and lines.  Which are radically different for test match bowling vs T20.  Batsmen by contrast, have to make more of mental adjustments, and smaller physical ones.  As Ashwin once colorfully put it - for T20, it maybe that 6 smartly constructed 'bad balls' may be a better choice for bowlers in T20 - not the case in test cricket. 

 

Anyway, you are free to put blame on whoever you want.  You seem to be intent on missing the point that I'm attempting to make.  So let's just move on.  

[express bowling]

5 hours ago, speedheat said:

  @express bowling     What do you think is the correct length to target that off stump?? Is it good length or fuller length considering that bounce is evn off the pitch?? I have argued it with my friends so many time but never came to  conclusion, some say its good some full  your views might help, thanks!!

 

Adjusting the length, based on the standard bounce of the pitch, would result in hitting the top of off stump on any pitch. In fact, this can give us the ideal length on any pitch.

 

In India on lower bounce pitches, pacers will have to bowl a tad shorter and in SA and Australia, the length has to be a tad fuller to hit the top of off stump.  Most edges are also got when pacers target top of 4th to 5th stump.

 

Indian pacers typically did not make this adjustment in the earlier years, while travelling abroad.  They ended up bowling too short for bouncy pitches, because they were used to bowling that length in India and getting results.  This made them miss the stumps as well as the edges.  Srinath, in his early years, is a good example of this phenomenon.

[express bowling]

3 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

I am sorry @express bowling bhai. I take the blame fully. But I promise, next time, I will train these bowlers properly!

 

RAFbhai .... this tour to SA is a good example.

 

All our pacers bowled a high % of deliveries between off stump and 6th stump ( this has rarely happened before as a group )  ...  and got unprecedented good results.

Edited January 31, 2018 by express bowling

[putrevus]

I personally don't put too much stock on this SA tour, the wickets were very bowler friendly and yet they let them off the hook couple of times.

[express bowling]

 

Indians pacers have generally had difficulty bowling on pacer-friendly pitches outside Asia.

 

This is how our pacers  have done in SA between 1991 and 2017

 

 

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
BKV Prasad	1996-1997	3	6	122.0	15	425	17	5/60	10/153	25.00	3.48	43.0	2	1
J Srinath	1992-2001	8	16	372.0	88	1087	43	6/76	8/104	25.27	2.92	51.9	3	0
S Sreesanth	2006-2011	6	11	214.0	35	771	27	5/40	8/99	28.55	3.60	47.5	2	0
Z Khan	2001-2013	8	15	313.5	56	1068	30	4/62	6/93	35.60	3.40	62.7	0	0
N Kapil Dev	1992-1993	4	8	165.0	46	299	8	3/43	3/62	37.37	1.81	123.7	0	0
M Prabhakar	1992-1993	4	8	144.0	31	389	9	4/90	5/164	43.22	2.70	96.0	0	0
Mohammed Shami	2013-2013	2	4	75.0	11	263	6	3/107	5/155	43.83	3.50	75.0	0	0
I Sharma	2010-2013	5	9	182.4	28	650	12	4/79	5/170	54.16	3.55	91.3	0	0

 

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_pacespin=1;class=1;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2;opposition=3;orderby=bowling_average;qualmin1=5;qualval1=wickets;spanmax1=31+Jan+2017;spanmin1=31+Jan+1990;spanval1=span;team=6;template=results;type=bowling

 

 

 

 

This is how our pacers  have done in SA on this tour.  Much better as a group.

 

 

 

Overall figures

Player	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
Mohammed Shami	3	6	83.3	16	256	15	5/28	6/74	17.06	3.06	33.4	1	0
I Sharma	2	4	69.0	12	150	8	3/46	5/86	18.75	2.17	51.7	0	0
B Kumar	2	4	67.0	22	203	10	4/87	6/120	20.30	3.02	40.2	0	0
JJ Bumrah	3	6	112.1	16	353	14	5/54	7/111	25.21	3.14	48.0	1	0

 

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_pacespin=1;class=1;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2;opposition=3;orderby=bowling_average;qualmin1=5;qualval1=wickets;spanmin2=31+Jan+2017;spanval2=span;team=6;template=results;type=bowling

 

Edited January 31, 2018 by express bowling

[Tattieboy]

5 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

Good observation! Spoken not like a tattie today!

It also is a reason for lack of good batsmen who can play overseas .

In those concrete/ artificial nets young batsmen play through the line with minimal foot movement , they get off with not playing either forward or back properly because of lack of seam movement on those surfaces.

[MechEng]

Fitness plays a major role in targetting the off stump to 5th stump lines. Your brain might be ready to land every ball in that corridor but your body also has to cooperate with the brain to repeatably do that, good strength in muscles will help you to achieve that repeatability. I remember once Wasim Akram was saying during commentary that when he achieved maximum fitness, his line and length problem got sorted out.

 

Jimmy Anderson, Mcgrath and Donald could easily bowl in that corridor continuously and they were fitter than any fast bowler India has produced.

[MechEng]

Listen to Nass here:

 

 

[jinjar]

IMO, it's because that line on previous Indian pitches will be driven all day long as there will be no movement. If bowler bowls on those pitches long enough, his body/muscles will develop to bowl in that angle and it will become natural, it's very hard to change after that.

[MechEng]

11 minutes ago, jinjar said:

IMO, it's because that line on previous Indian pitches will be driven all day long as there will be no movement. If bowler bowls on those pitches long enough, his body/muscles will develop to bowl in that angle and it will become natural, it's very hard to change after that.

You're right to some extent, but still bowling that line will always keep the slip fielders interested even if you get hit for fours on a super flat pitch, it becomes only a matter of time before the wicket falls.