Navdeep Saini bowling with genuine pace now ( Fastest of 152.9 kph )

[putrevus]

1 hour ago, express bowling said:

 

No point choosing a No.8 based on his batting skills ... after choosing a No.6 who is unfit half the time and not in the best of form.

 

7 solid batsmen should be good enough 95% of the time.

 

And 4 good wicket-taking bowlers will win you more matches than 2 mediocre bowlers who can bat a bit plus just 2 good bowlers.

That is totally wrong, all good/great teams have had very good no8s along with bowlers who could bat.Shane Warne was no8 for Aussies, All 1980s WI bowlers could bat.

 

No one is asking to field mediocre bowlers at the expense of good bowlers.They need to find good bowlers and teach them to become acceptable with bat.Ishant is prime example of making himself acceptable with bat.

 

The sentiment in India  under Dhoni was fast bowlers who can bowl fast are wayward so they need to select more line and length bowlers who bowl medium pace as they offer captain more control.

 

That nonsense ruined so many fast bowlers, now we are looking fast bowlers who can bowl fast but are also accurate.Samething applies here looking for bowlers who can contribute more with bat does not mean that we are looking for mediocre bowlers

 

Guy Saini is 27 how many years has he got left and is he that dynamic bowler that we could overlook his other weaknesses.TM

need to look at all these things.

Edited December 26, 2019 by putrevus

[Suhaan]

1 hour ago, putrevus said:

Who said runs from tail don't matter.That oocassional bats they get might be in the biggest game.Every team needs to win that tough game in a tournament where bowlers have to come to play a big part with bat too.

 

What the hell is he supposed to do, stop with this nonsense that he is padding his stats . If Saini plays tests also that will be the problem.Ishant Sharma played some memorable innings with bat .

 

No one is saying Saini should not play or be given more chances.You need to be Glenn Mcgraths with ball if you want to get into the team with just one skill long term.

How many McGrath s have been there,can you tell precisely?

Cricket has changed you have overlooked that fact

Or maybe you think there are Brett Lees,Gillespies waiting in the wings in our setup,who could also wield their bat

And we have always gone with that extra bat(who could also bowl)in every "Biggest game" and fell short everytime,we paid the price yet again in WC sf,

We have always gone with a safer combination in every crunch game for eg Bhuvi is preferred over others just for his hypothetical batting 

People(only you)have to admit we lost the battle the other day when we let NZ score above par against that attack in overcast conditions

[ShoonyaSifar]

2 hours ago, putrevus said:

Who said runs from tail don't matter.That oocassional bats they get might be in the biggest game.Every team needs to win that tough game in a tournament where bowlers have to come to play a big part with bat too.

 

What the hell is he supposed to do, stop with this nonsense that he is padding his stats . If Saini plays tests also that will be the problem.Ishant Sharma played some memorable innings with bat .

 

No one is saying Saini should not play or be given more chances.You need to be Glenn Mcgraths with ball if you want to get into the team with just one skill long term.

You can count on fingers matches won by numbers 8 and 9 in LOIs. Whereas countless teams have won matches due to brilliance of their bowlers who could hardly bat.

 

On stats padding, compile a list of best ODI knocks in the decade and see how many 100s by the current captain figure in that list. Thats the worth of his 100s , especially in last couple of years. ZERO 100s in ICC CT, ZERO 100s in 2019 WC, went missing on key moments. Turns up vs WI, and hits 100 after 100. May sound great to you, to me that is stat padding. If  Iyer or Gill had got that opportunity, they could have scored those 100s as well.

[putrevus]

42 minutes ago, Suhaan said:

How many McGrath s have been there,can you tell precisely?

Cricket has changed you have overlooked that fact

Or maybe you think there are Brett Lees,Gillespies waiting in the wings in our setup,who could also wield their bat

And we have always gone with that extra bat(who could also bowl)in every "Biggest game" and fell short everytime,we paid the price yet again in WC sf,

We have always gone with a safer combination in every crunch game for eg Bhuvi is preferred over others just for his hypothetical batting 

People(only you)have to admit we lost the battle the other day when we let NZ score above par against that attack in overcast conditions

No cricket has not changed, you need a team to win, not five bowlers plus five batsmen and WK.That includes bowlers who can bat, there have been great teams with batsmen who were unable to bowl but all those teams had bowlers who could bat.Anderson, Walsh and Mcgrath ,Murali Bumrah.Unless you are in that class you don't get to be in team long term just for bowling skill.Even Anderson and Mcgrath improved a lot with bat.

 

WC semis was not lost by not playing Shami, it was lost by playing useless player like Karthik who never succeeeded under pressure and injury to Dhawan  along with top order collpase.Not playing Shami was right call.

 

They will have to continue to take extra batsman inorder to compensate for bowlers inability to bat and that adds to the imbalance to already imbalanced team. 

 

 

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

3 hours ago, Suhaan said:

2 out of top 5should rather learn to roll their arms rather than asking no8 ,9 to prioritize batting

This also gives balance to the team,itsnot likeThakur is a pollock or Heath Streak or even Agarkar for that matter

rolling arm over isnt enough.....there shud be some skill or basic control. Part timers dont work that easy today 

Its better we look among options we have and we have good option we havent even tried them properly and panicking 

[Ankit_sharma03]

If these runs from lower order so important then why the burden on fast bowler, we have spinners who can bat why not look at them

 

Gowtham 

Ashwin

Rahul chahar- he is the most talented spinner i have seen in India and a wrist spinner. Captain wasted him on bench 

Gopal - selectors arent even seeing him for A-teams and this guy had ABDV n Kohli in so much trouble in IPL

 

all of them can bat and are better bowler then thakur n chahar for ODI . 

Options are there we are just not looking 

[putrevus]

23 minutes ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

You can count on fingers matches won by numbers 8 and 9 in LOIs. Whereas countless teams have won matches due to brilliance of their bowlers who could hardly bat.

 

On stats padding, compile a list of best ODI knocks in the decade and see how many 100s by the current captain figure in that list. Thats the worth of his 100s , especially in last couple of years. ZERO 100s in ICC CT, ZERO 100s in 2019 WC, went missing on key moments. Turns up vs WI, and hits 100 after 100. May sound great to you, to me that is stat padding. If  Iyer or Gill had got that opportunity, they could have scored those 100s as well.

You pathetic thinking has no answer, you are discrediting the greatest odi player.My advice to you  is stop following the team till he retires it will save  you lof agony.

Yes You can count on fingers how many matches will be won by no8 0r no 9 but teams cannot go into any match with 5 no11s either.

No Gill or Iyer even if are given 1000 chances will not become Kohli. There is only one Kohli like there was only one Sachin, if you cannot cherish that you are better of  not following the team till he is gone.

Edited December 26, 2019 by putrevus

[Suhaan]

9 minutes ago, putrevus said:

No cricket has not changed, you need a team to win, not five bowlers plus five batsmen and WK.That includes bowlers who can bat, there have been great teams with batsmen who were unable to bowl but all those teams had bowlers who could bat.Anderson, Walsh and Mcgrath ,Murali Bumrah.Unless you are in that class you don't get to be in team long term just for bowling skill.Even Anderson and Mcgrath improved a lot with bat.

 

WC semis was not lost by not playing Shami, it was lost by playing useless player like Karthik who never succeeeded under pressure and injury to Dhawan  along with top order collpase.Not playing Shami was right call.

 

They will have to continue to take extra batsman inorder to compensate for bowlers inability to bat and that adds to the imbalance to already imbalanced team. 

 

 

 

Shami not playing was a huge factor (not the only factor)that day,him along with Bumrah could have been a potent combo to restrict NZ that day

Karthik's inclusion, playing downhill Dhoni all along in the build up to the Wc was whose choice?Kohli or not?

There is imbalance not because of our bowlers inability to hold bat ,its there as none of our top bats can bowl either

You always have a greater chance of winning by taking wickets and restricting the opponent

Even Mcgrath would have struggled in this t20 age to maintain a career economy rate of 3.88 so it all comes down to picking wickets

 

[Suhaan]

16 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

rolling arm over isnt enough.....there shud be some skill or basic control. Part timers dont work that easy today 

Its better we look among options we have and we have good option we havent even tried them properly and panicking 

Exactly part timers, someone coming at 8-9 who is needed to bowl and bat can be called an allrounder

But ,i dont find any one in our setup who is genuinely good in one aspect of the game ,so would you risk taking someone like Chahar,Shardul or Dube in that position?

An attack of Bumrah,Chahr/Shardul,Shami/Shardul,

Kuldeep,Jadeja will never bother any opposition

If your bowlers can bat that is a bonus but that shouldn't be the condition to play them, most of the times they will setup the match by their bowling alone

[express bowling]

2 hours ago, putrevus said:

Who said runs from tail don't matter.That oocassional bats they get might be in the biggest game.Every team needs to win that tough game in a tournament where bowlers have to come to play a big part with bat too.

Can't pick below par or unprepared batsmen and then choose bowlers based on their batting skill. 

 

Quote

What the hell is he supposed to do, stop with this nonsense that he is padding his stats .

 

How is this issue relevant to this thread  ?

 

 

Quote

 If Saini plays tests also that will be the problem.Ishant Sharma played some memorable innings with bat .

 

Do you know what kind of batsman Saini is compared to Ishant  ?

 

Quote

No one is saying Saini should not play or be given more chances.You need to be Glenn Mcgraths with ball if you want to get into the team with just one skill long term.

 

You must be joking !   Atleast 60% of the top pacers were / are below par with the bat. 

 

From the mid 70s ... Holding, Roberts, Garner, Lillee, Thomson, Willis, Walsh, Ambrose, Waqar, Donald, Ntini, McGrath, Gillespie, Akhtar, Bond, Steyn, Morkel, Anderson, Bumrah, Shami, Boult. 

Edited December 26, 2019 by express bowling

[Ankit_sharma03]

4 minutes ago, Suhaan said:

Exactly part timers, someone coming at 8-9 who is needed to bowl and bat can be called an allrounder

But ,i dont find any one in our setup who is genuinely good in one aspect of the game ,so would you risk taking someone like Chahar,Shardul or Dube in that position?

An attack of Bumrah,Chahr/Shardul,Shami/Shardul,

Kuldeep,Jadeja will never bother any opposition

If your bowlers can bat that is a bonus but that shouldn't be the condition to play them, most of the times they will setup the match by their bowling alone

option for a batsman who can bowl

jadeja, Sundar, Axar, Dube, Shankar are all good.....we need to 1st try them n a proper run and use them properly

while using a 6th bowler his strength n weakness needs to be kept in mind, for eg they used dube as 5th bowler which he wasnt. 

 

Among bowlers if we need some batting- bhuvi wud be in next Wc plans and further added here 

29 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

If these runs from lower order so important then why the burden on fast bowler, we have spinners who can bat why not look at them

 

Gowtham 

Ashwin

Rahul chahar- he is the most talented spinner i have seen in India and a wrist spinner. Captain wasted him on bench 

Gopal - selectors arent even seeing him for A-teams and this guy had ABDV n Kohli in so much trouble in IPL

 

all of them can bat and are better bowler then thakur n chahar for ODI . 

Options are there we are just not looking 

 

[express bowling]

2 hours ago, putrevus said:

That is totally wrong, all good/great teams have had very good no8s along with bowlers who could bat.Shane Warne was no8 for Aussies, All 1980s WI bowlers could bat.

 

No, they could not ... with the exception of Marshall.

 

2 hours ago, putrevus said:

No one is asking to field mediocre bowlers at the expense of good bowlers.They need to find good bowlers and teach them to become acceptable with bat.Ishant is prime example of making himself acceptable with bat.

 

That nonsense ruined so many fast bowlers, now we are looking fast bowlers who can bowl fast but are also accurate.Samething applies here looking for bowlers who can contribute more with bat does not mean that we are looking for mediocre bowlers

 

When bowlers like Shardul are preferred over other better bowlers or Shami in red hot form is dropped in WC SF for Bhuvi, then that is the conclusion.

 

2 hours ago, putrevus said:

Guy Saini is 27 how many years has he got left and is he that dynamic bowler that we could overlook his other weaknesses.TM

need to look at all these things.

 

What other weaknesses ?

 

He is pretty good for a just capped bowler ... and he is yet to play in his strongest format ... tests.

 

A pacer can easily bowl well till he is 32 or 33 ... especially those who are late starters.  That means 6 to 7 years which is not bad.

[ShoonyaSifar]

Kohli fans have now started to call young players as mediocre to justify why they have not been given chance by their hero.

 

[express bowling]

Saini was in great form and bowling at high pace when he was 25. But he was not picked.

 

And he gets to debut in ODIs ( still no test cap) when he is 27.

 

And now, the fact that he is 27, is some how going against him !

 

It is like a person not giving his young son enough food ... and then criticizing him for being too thin. 

 

 

[Suhaan]

8 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Saini was in great form and bowling at high pace when he was 25. But he was not picked.

 

And he gets to debut in ODIs ( still no test cap) when he is 27.

 

And now, the fact that he is 27, is some how going against him !

 

It is like a person not giving his young son enough food ... and then criticizing him for being too thin. 

 

 

But I think he is not too old,yes quite late to debut but many pacers get to their peak speeds in this age bracket ie 26-30

Edited December 27, 2019 by Suhaan

[express bowling]

23 minutes ago, Suhaan said:

But I think he is not too old,yes quite late to debut but many pacers get to their peak speeds in this age bracket ie 26-30

 

Yes ... late starters and even some other pacers are often at their quickest in the 26 to 31 year range or more.

 

Remember Ryan Harris.

 

Imran was at his quickest when he was 29 to 34.

 

Our own Shami is bowling quicker with every grey hair that he gets.

 

If Saini can bowl 140 k to 150 k and bowl well for 5 years ... and have a solid 7 year career ... it won't be bad at all.  But he needs to debut in tests as soon as possible.

Edited December 27, 2019 by express bowling

[Ankit_sharma03]

12 minutes ago, sarchasm said:

Let's see.

 

Chahar/Shardul/Bhuvi for the additional 15-20 runs.

That also is not a guarantee in every game..... once in 20 games 

12 minutes ago, sarchasm said:

Or someone like Saini who could get wickets up front AND in the middle overs, the difference between a 350+ total and a manageable 300 runs.

and that will happen 2 times in 5 games atleast

 

So always a better bowler

[express bowling]

11 minutes ago, sarchasm said:

Let's see.

 

Chahar/Shardul/Bhuvi for the additional 15-20 runs. Or someone like Saini who could get wickets up front AND in the middle overs, the difference between a 350+ total and a manageable 300 runs.

 

Exactly  !

 

But we may now hear that Bumrah needs to be dropped as he can't bat. 

 

Chahar, Shardul, Bhuvi and Jadeja will be the 4 bowlers as they " can all bat ".

[gakgupta]

 
Exactly  !
 
But we may now hear that Bumrah needs to be dropped as he can't bat. 
 
Chahar, Shardul, Bhuvi and Jadeja will be the 4 bowlers as they " can all bat ".

Dube bats better than all the above....so, he should be ahead of everyone else from the above list

Sent from my Nokia 6.1 using Tapatalk

[express bowling]

This is some high quality fast bowling by Saini, combining high pace, accuracy and seam movement ... and some bounce from time to time.

 

He is consistently hitting the proverbial top of off stump.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 7, 2020 by express bowling