Better captain: Ganguly or Dhoni?

[Trichromatic]

1 minute ago, Laaloo said:

And jadeja after giving him a million chances. Jadeja was never selected as a bowler. He's a hack in ODIs. He's a hack in tests. It's his test bowling that has been a revelation. In other aspects, the ROI has been too low for so many chances bestowed upon him. 

Yes, we had 100s of bowlers averaging below 25 in past

[mancalledsting]

5 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

It's pretty simple.

 

Try answering these questions and you will understand.

 

What did Ganguly achieve in his ODI career which any other decent Indian captain couldn't have achieved?

 

1. More than 1 final victory - easily.

2. Better than 30% series win - most likely

3. Home wins not just against Zimbabwe - could have fluked 1 series for sure

4. Better win loss ratio - year considering that it was lowest among all good captains, there was no going down.

 

Think of same question for Dhoni

1. More than 60% series wins - can't say for sure. One has to be very good to increase that.

2. World cup - we already know the answer.

3. 7 finals - some very good captains could do that, not every decent captain.

in case you didnt notice, Kapil Dev captained India to a World Cup victory against a far better team in far more hostile conditions and played well throughout the tournament. Stop talking about the 2011 Indian World Cup win as the be all and end all of Indian cricket history. 

Edited January 3, 2018 by mancalledsting

[Laaloo]

2 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

Yes, we had 100s of bowlers averaging below 25 in past

What?

[Trichromatic]

1 minute ago, mancalledsting said:

in case you didnt notice, Kapil Dev captained India to a World Cup victory against a far better team in far more hostile conditions and played well throughout the tournament. Stop talking about the 2011 Indian World Cup win as the be all and end all of cricket history. 

And the question was what did Dhoni achieve which ANY DECENT captain couldn't have achieved?

 

World cup win was something which only very good captains could have achieved. Ex - Kapil and Dhoni.

 

Could any decent captain achieved the same - no way.

 

Can't say same about Ganguly's records.

[Shunya]

15 minutes ago, mancalledsting said:

Rohit has underperformed as per his potential- should have been a world great on the test level, Bhuvi was a trundler under Dhoni- has been rejuvenated under Kohli

That is the beauty of Captain cool. He persisted with Rohit, Kohli, Bhuvi when they were not world class. Ashwin and Jaddu were/are dissed by all the haters here because of CSK connection. He continued to persist and give them chances and now they are top ranked bowlers in the world. Kohli should actually learn from him w.r.t to youngsters.

[Ankit_sharma03]

15 minutes ago, mancalledsting said:

when he was young, Rohit was gun, needed early blooding into test side. Instead India went with Suresh Raina and Rohit continue being t20 specialist and his crucial development years were ruined. 

he didnt have the technique n temperament to do well in test. Aaj tak to mushkil condition men run nhin bante

N where was the place , earlier we had sachin, dravid , laxman, then kohli, rahane, pujara.......dnt tell me he was a better player then them . 

If u remeber rohit got injured twice while he was on eve of his debut . 

 

Chalo from horses mouth itself-

http://indianexpress.com/article/sports/cricket/mahendra-singh-dhoni-rohit-sharma-opening-batting-india-4469392/

 

Nehra had gr8 potential - wud u blame ganguly for him ..... no 

Balaji, irfan, RP, sreesanth, munaf all played under diff captain but all have themselves to blame. 

 

A captain can back u , give u confidence.....at the end u have to do ur job in ground 

 

Even guys like parthiv n karthik had potential wud u blame ganguly for their brain farts

Uthappa was damn talented- termprament issue

 

In this country there is a lot of competition and only 11 can play yet there are lucky one like rohit who has gotten many chances and if u dnt make it with them its players own fault

 

 

Here is ganguly words during rohit struggle, what makes u guarantee he wud have backed him. Infact during that phase ganguly was very vocal to drop rohit n give chance to his state mate manoj tiwary

 

 

Rohit sharma is the worst point u can come against dhoni, umesh yadav is a better point 

 

 

Also BTW now that virat is captain, if u notice rohit has put on weight in past few yrs whereas virat set huge standard with fitness....wud u now blame kohli for his weight gain as well 

 

Wud people blame misbah for lacklustre of umar akmal n shehzad

Edited January 3, 2018 by Ankit_sharma03

[adi B]

4 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

And the question was what did Dhoni achieve which ANY DECENT captain couldn't have achieved?

 

World cup win was something which only very good captains could have achieved. Ex - Kapil and Dhoni.

 

Could any decent captain achieved the same - no way.

 

Can't say same about Ganguly's records.

You are being thick now.the team dhoni had in 2011 was a very strong one and a favourite to win the world cup ,hence some posters are saying give azhar or ganguly that team and even they'd win the world cup(not that I agree or disagree) ,how hard is that to understand?

Now reverse the situation,put dhoni in charge of 2003 wc side and ganguly in charge of 2011 side and have your say 

[mancalledsting]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/cricket/article-2749003/MS-Dhoni-quit-India-s-Test-captaincy-awful-England-tour-THE-TOP-SPIN.html

 

Lawrence Booth:

 

"MS Dhoni must quit India's Test captaincy after awful England tour... his record away from home borders on the scandalous"

 

"In 2011, the excuse was that India were dragged down by too many ageing stars, though it’s sobering to think how much worse they would have fared without the runs of Rahul Dravid. In 2014, Dhoni ended up pleading inexperience, which suggests something went badly wrong with the succession planning"

 

"It was time for India to go for the jugular. And so, on the first day at Southampton, Dhoni sat back and invited England to nudge their way to 247 for 2. Pulse-racing it was not. But it allowed Alastair Cook and Gary Ballance to progress at a pace designed to ease England back into the series: no frills, no risks, just plenty of defensive fields and easy singles. It was red-ball cricket played with a white flag."

 

"As much as Ravindra Jadeja’s drop of Cook at third slip when he was 15 runs into his restorative 95, England were galvanised by the vibes emitted by Dhoni’s caution. There was no stopping them after that."

 

 

"But those grim tactics on the first day at the Ageas Bowl suggest the problem may nevertheless be a question of attitude. At home, Dhoni has won 21 Tests out of 30; away, it is six out of 28 (and three of those wins were in Bangladesh, New Zealand and the West Indies). Not all of this can be ascribed to the seaming ball.

If Dhoni loses three of the four Tests in Australia later this year – who would bet against it? – he will become the most defeated captain away from home in the history of the game. With the quality of the batsmen at his disposal, this is a scandal."

 

"It would also be a surprise if Kohli’s Test captaincy was as supine as Dhoni’s"

 

 

 

[mancalledsting]

9 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

And the question was what did Dhoni achieve which ANY DECENT captain couldn't have achieved?

 

World cup win was something which only very good captains could have achieved. Ex - Kapil and Dhoni.

 

Could any decent captain achieved the same - no way.

 

Can't say same about Ganguly's records.

I know what the question was, just want to put the claim of 2011 WC win into perspective. Ganguly was only one match against one of the best ODI teams of all time away from achieving that btw.

[Shunya]

13 minutes ago, mancalledsting said:

in case you didnt notice, Kapil Dev captained India to a World Cup victory against a far better team in far more hostile conditions and played well throughout the tournament. Stop talking about the 2011 Indian World Cup win as the be all and end all of Indian cricket history. 

lol. WC win is rare thing in cricket. It is the one of the biggest achievement in our cricketing history. Just because Dhoni was WC winning captain, now you will downplay WCs. We know your bias, atleast try a bit to be neutral man.

Kapil dev was great and so is Dhoni. Legends 

[Ankit_sharma03]

25 minutes ago, adi B said:

You are being thick now.the team dhoni had in 2011 was a very strong one and a favourite to win the world cup ,hence some posters are saying give azhar or ganguly that team and even they'd win the world cup(not that I agree or disagree) ,how hard is that to understand?

Now reverse the situation,put dhoni in charge of 2003 wc side and ganguly in charge of 2011 side and have your say 

We are making a point that ganguly had final mental block, give him any team and he wud have screwed many times

 

Now u when u add dhoni himself in 2003 team the team becomes better, m not saying he wud have won but dhoni in that final wud have dealt with nerves better that what i feel

And dhoni did defeat the gr8 aussie in their own backyard with a very very young team . That aussie side did had players on dip still they were miles ahead of us and we beat them twice in finals 

 

Now captaincy n good team is co related.....

This debate has gone in some other direction. 

 

The whole resources debate will never end as it will be subjective to many people and many are here just to find extreme points 

 

Ideal question is give both of them same resources and who ll do better ???

Edited January 3, 2018 by Ankit_sharma03

[maniac]

Kris Srikkanth is the greatest captain of all time because both Sachin and Kumble debuted under him... beat that!!!

[mancalledsting]

2 minutes ago, Shunya said:

lol. WC win is rare thing in cricket. It is the one of the biggest achievement in our cricketing history. Just because Dhoni was WC winning captain, now you will downplay WCs. We know your bias, atleast try a bit to be neutral man.

Kapil dev was great and so is Dhoni. Legends 

....and Ganguly was one game away against a far better team than anything Dhoni has ever seen. Even Azhar with his match fixing got us to the semi finals. 

[Ankit_sharma03]

1 minute ago, maniac said:

Kris Srikkanth is the greatest captain of all time because both Sachin and Kumble debuted under him... beat that!!!

HE drew a series against Pak and i think he was fired after that , if m not wrong 

That was the worst part about that phase, captains had no assurity hence they cudnt build teams .

Ganguly n dhoni were lucky that they had such good backings of board

[maniac]

1 minute ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

We are making a point that ganguly had final mental block, give him any team and he wud have screwed many times

 

Now u when u add dhoni himself in 2003 team the team becomes better, m not saying he wud have won but dhoni in that final wud have dealt with nerves better that what i feel

And dhoni did defeat the gr8 aussie in their own backyard with a very very young team . That aussie side did had players on dip still they were miles ahead of us and we beat them twice in finals 

 

Now captaincy n good team is co related.....

This debate has gone in some other direction. 

 

The whole resources debate will never end as it will be subjective to many people and many are here just to find extreme points 

 

Ideal question is give both of them same resources and who ll do better ???

Dhoni was kicked out in the first round of 3 Wt20 tournaments, First round of 1 CT.

 

2011 WC too at home he tied with Eng and lost to South Africa.Remember giving Piyush Chawla the penultimate over vs England.

 

Indias biggest wins in the 2011 wc was vs Aus and Pak both times where Dhoni’s contribution was a big 0

 

I am sorry I must have missed Dhoni’s great captaincy almost Clive lloydesque.

 

 

[maniac]

2 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

HE drew a series against Pak and i think he was fired after that , if m not wrong 

That was the worst part about that phase, captains had no assurity hence they cudnt build teams .

Ganguly n dhoni were lucky that they had such good backings of board

You missed sarcasm anyways Srikkanth was pretty innovative... before Martin Crowe before Ranatunga, he promoted Chetan Sharma who got a odi 100 vs a top side.

 

having said that he was dropped due to poor personal performances which seems to be missing in cricket ever since.

[adi B]

4 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

We are making a point that ganguly had final mental block, give him any team and he wud have screwed many times

 

Now u when u add dhoni himself in 2003 team the team becomes better, m not saying he wud have won but dhoni in that final wud have dealt with nerves better that what i feel

And dhoni did defeat the gr8 aussie in their own backyard with a very very young team . That aussie side did had players on dip still they were miles ahead of us and we beat them twice in finals 

 

Now captaincy n good team is co related.....

This debate has gone in some other direction. 

 

The whole resources debate will never end as it will be subjective to many people and many are here just to find extreme points 

 

Ideal question is give both of them same resources and who ll do better ???

Disagree that the 2011 team under ganguly against srl in the finals would have choked .one of the main problem during some of the chokes in the finals during ganguly era was due to lack of finishers in the form of a yuvi,raina,dhoni.

agree with the rest of your post.

[Trichromatic]

1 minute ago, adi B said:

You are being thick now.the team dhoni had in 2011 was a very strong one and a favourite to win the world cup ,hence some posters are saying give azhar or ganguly that team and even they'd win the world cup(not that I agree or disagree) ,how hard is that to understand?

Now reverse the situation,put dhoni in charge of 2003 wc side and ganguly in charge of 2011 side and have your say 

Where did I say that Dhoni led a weak team to WC win? Why go to the extremes?

 

Dhoni had a very good team and with his brilliant captaincy we won the world cup. Could Azhar have won the 2011 world cup - probably yes.

 

Could Ganguly have won it - very unlikely and there is nothing to counter it either.  We were losing everything under him.

 

Give the same team to Dhoni which Ganguly had.

 

Bar is so low under him. All Dhoni had to do was to win 2 final out of 14 and he would have already surpassed it and the kind of team we had then, we can't say it's unlikely. Same goes for all other records.

 

Can we put Ganguly in charge of 2007-2013 team and say that he would have achieved more? What Dhoni achieved was already best in many ways. He would have do very good to even match that.

 

However, Dhoni had to be just not bad to outperform Ganguly during 2000-06.

 

Even if for once we assume that Ganguly had poor team, it's like comparing a batsman who scores at avg of 10 on tough pitches with a batsman who averages 70 on flat pitches over long period of time.

 

You can say that the first batsman too could have 70 on flat pitches as conditions were easy to bat, you deep down you know he had to be very good no matter how easy conditions are. But you know that 2nd batsman will have to just avoid being worst to average more than 10 on tough pitches.

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

1 minute ago, maniac said:

Dhoni was kicked out in the first round of 3 Wt20 tournaments, First round of 1 CT.

His t20 captaincy went for to long. he shudnt have been in the team as player 1st

About 1st CT, so did u expect him to win everything......aadmi hai ya robot .  

1 minute ago, maniac said:

 

2011 WC too at home he tied with Eng and lost to South Africa.Remember giving Piyush Chawla the penultimate over vs England.

Remeber ganguly backing rohan gavaskar despite failing for a year

Remeber ganguly backing parthiv despite his horrors as keeper 

Remeber ganguly choosing to bowl in WC final on patta

Remeber ganguly faking an injury watching nagpur pitch 

 

Aise nikalne lage to koi captain na bache, every captain has done his share of mistakes 

1 minute ago, maniac said:

 

Indias biggest wins in the 2011 wc was vs Aus and Pak both times where Dhoni’s contribution was a big 0

He scored in Final ....Everyone scored somewere

Wasnt cricket a team game 

1 minute ago, maniac said:

 

I am sorry I must have missed Dhoni’s great captaincy almost Clive lloydesque

yes u did in that case , may be u were bsy in love with ur fav batsman

[maniac]

That 2011 Srilankan team looks like the Wi of the 80s if we compare to their current team but they were nothing compared to the Srilankan team

of the mid-late 90s.

 

The 2003 side could have wiped floor with them.