King Kohli vs Sir Viv in ODIs

[Vijy]

1 minute ago, dandaroy said:

Viv is a ATG, and probably the very best of his generation. But during his time, though the quality of test bowling was better than today, but ODI bowling is different art that was not perfected yet. So yes, Kohli faces better quality ODI/T20 bowling now that Viv did in ODIs when he played. Also, Viv never had to face his teammates who were probably the best in the world throughout the late 70s and 80s. Kohli is only half way through his career and is already on his way to being the GOAT in the shorter format. His numbers are just staggering and his record in clutch is proven over and over again. We are not talking about tests here, where has some ways to go and people will probably complain about the quality of test bowling today. But in the shorter format, he is already close to surpassing anyone (or already has) who has played the game including SRT.

I agree with most of what you wrote, but the only missing link in VK's ODI resume is scoring heavily in WCs and CTs. He will have a chance to rectify that in 2019.

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, Vijy said:

I agree with most of what you wrote, but the only missing link in VK's ODI resume is scoring heavily in WCs and CTs. He will have a chance to rectify that in 2019.

CT is not the same as WC.  It was always an inconsequential tournament compared to WC. Besides  Kohli has one of the highest average in CT history.

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=2;filter=advanced;orderby=batting_average;template=results;trophy=44;type=batting

 

WC he will rectify. SOmeone like him would enjoy world cup more than bilateral. Lot of easy runs there. Just an aberration he failed. Still averages 41 in the world cup.  How many guys actually have done well while chasing 300 plus totals in knockouts. 

[kirkutfan]

1 hour ago, rkt.india said:

How hurdles of the past were bigger? An overseas series win against a top side is as good as any and there is no chance people will forget it. People will talk about it for years. It may not as big as a WC, but as important as a WC.

This win was nice, but do you think it will be memorable over time? I think of Odis as a side show to the test series in bilateral contests. If I remember right, when South Africa visited India last, South Africa beat us in the Odis and t20s before losing to us in the test series. Who really remembers those t20 and odi games? That tour is remembered for India taking them out in the tests. 

[Deleted_User_1]

26 minutes ago, Vijy said:

I agree with most of what you wrote, but the only missing link in VK's ODI resume is scoring heavily in WCs and CTs. He will have a chance to rectify that in 2019.

He is still 29. If he keeps his fitness up he can play until 38-39 easily which is easily two more WCs. 2011 he was too raw, but yes he did miss his opportunity in 2015. Hopefully he can recitfy in 2019. Batsmen usually are in the peak of their form at 30 and he is right near the top of his game now. 

[kira]

9 hours ago, Shunya said:

Kohli is the best ever, time to accept it. All these nostalgia freaks can continue to gloat over Viv or Sachin and be butthurt as long as they want, Virat on the other hand is rewriting history. 

He is the Bradman of ODIs.

lol dhoni chamcha jumping on the kohli bandwagon

[Vijy]

8 minutes ago, kirkutfan said:

This win was nice, but do you think it will be memorable over time? I think of Odis as a side show to the test series in bilateral contests. If I remember right, when South Africa visited India last, South Africa beat us in the Odis and t20s before losing to us in the test series. Who really remembers those t20 and odi games? That tour is remembered for India taking them out in the tests. 

I remember the last ODI though. remember de kock, faf and esp ABDV pulverizing the hapless ind bowlers. In general, bilaterals do tend to be forgotten but the margin of this victory may ensure it's remembered more.

[vvvslaxman]

Just now, Vijy said:

I remember the last ODI though. remember de kock, faf and esp ABDV pulverizing the hapless ind bowlers. In general, bilaterals do tend to be forgotten but the margin of this victory may ensure it's remembered more.

I remember lot of bilateral games especially if it contains good innings.  I remember some obscure knocks as well. Who forgets Sachin's desert storm, 179, Dhoni's 183, Kohli's 183, 133 not out. Infact all the innings of Richards that i remember are from bilaterals.  THere is one match that happened sometime in the last 80s .  India made 299 in 40 overs. SL made 289 in response. Mahanama made 89 hit just 7 fours. But had strike rate over 100. Mendis ran him out. Otherwise they would have won. Srikkanth gave a blistering start. All this things are straight from my memory :) Good ODI match is  a Good ODI match. Bilateral or world cup. 

 

[Vijy]

6 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

I remember lot of bilateral games especially if it contains good innings.  I remember some obscure knocks as well. Who forgets Sachin's desert storm, 179, Dhoni's 183, Kohli's 183, 133 not out. Infact all the innings of Richards that i remember are from bilaterals.  THere is one match that happened sometime in the last 80s .  India made 299 in 40 overs. SL made 289 in response. Mahanama made 89 hit just 7 fours. But had strike rate over 100. Mendis ran him out. Otherwise they would have won. Srikkanth gave a blistering start. All this things are straight from my memory :) Good ODI match is  a Good ODI match. Bilateral or world cup. 

 

richards and king's knock from wc 1979 was memorable too. I agree regd remembrance of matches iwth good innings.

[vvvslaxman]

9 minutes ago, Vijy said:

richards and king's knock from wc 1979 was memorable too. I agree regd remembrance of matches iwth good innings.

Not sure how many actually watched that innings.  Actually watching started for many from 1983 world cup. Zaheer Abbas averaged like 47 during that period. Those days they had like 60 overs. You could bat slowly and bash the tired bowlers later on. Standard of bowling, batting both improved over the years along with equipment, pitches.  Those had the attitude in the 80s could score quickly. Remember Sunny made 36 runs in 60 overs?  Same Sunny made 100 in 94 balls against Marshall, Holding, Roberts, Davis at Ferosha Kotla. that too in a test match Which Holding is still bitching about. It is the mindset that wa sdifferent almost everyone except a handful of players like Richards, Kapil Dev, Sandip Patil.

Edited February 17, 2018 by vvvslaxman

[Vijy]

1 minute ago, vvvslaxman said:

Not sure how many actually watched that innings.  Actually watching started for many from 1983 world cup. Zaheer Abbas averaged like 47 during that period. Those days they had like 60 overs. You could bat slowly and bash the tired bowlers later on. Standard of bowling, batting both improved over the years along with equipment, pitches.  Those had the attitude in the 80s could score quickly. Remember Sunny made 36 runs in 60 overs?  Same Sunny made 100 in 94 balls against Marshall, Holding, Roberts, Davis at Ferosha Kotla. that too in a test match Which Holding is still bitching about. It is the mindset that wa sdifferent almost everyone except a handful of players like Richards, Kapil Dev, Sandip Patil.

that dude knows only how to bitch. he's a real whinger.

[vvvslaxman]

Richards was good at punishing bad balls. There were lot of them. But majority of the players didn't care if it is good or bad they would just play conservatively.  Srikkanth was the first one who started this aggressive opening in the 80s. Actually it worked. Ravi bot would test our patience with his slow batting. Azharuddin came. He introduced the concept of twos. He could score so quick just with singles and twos with deft placements. 

[Jimmy Cliff]

10 hours ago, urnotserious said:

Viv was way ahead of his contemporaries? LOL. Seems like reading comprehension is YOUR issue especially when it comes to numbers. Virat at least had an average 8 runs over the man behind him. Viv doesn't. LOL

Kohli has a contemporary who's well ahead of him in terms of SR (104 > 92) and average (61>57) in his own era . Viv doesn't . Wake me up when he surpasses ABDV in terms of SR. 

 

 

10 hours ago, urnotserious said:

Virat looks like a Superman compared to rest of the people on that list, Viv by comparison looks much more human. 

 

 

Yeah right. Viv sure looks much more human compared to someone like Abbas who could maintain an excellent record for barely 1/3 of the games and a bunch of guys following who are striking in the 60s .

 

On the other hand Kohli who can't better Dhawan in the tournaments that matter, can't match ABDV in terms of average and SR during his own career (referring to AB's numbers in the last 10 yrs or so) and has a tailender like record in WC KOs sure looks like a Superman . You have me convinced.

[Shunya]

2 hours ago, kira said:

lol dhoni chamcha jumping on the kohli bandwagon

Every Indian player who performs well for our team deserves praise. I will be fan of everyone be it Sachin or Kohli or lot of others regardless he is better than Dhoni or not. This concept is alien for a Sachin Chamcha like you - the worst lot ever whose only existence is to be butthurt throughout their lifetime and downplay all other players so that their GOD stays on pedestal. Thankfully not everyone is interested in that. Live with it, Kohli has suprassed Sachin in ODIs and real Indian fans are all loving it. 

[kirkutfan]

3 hours ago, MechEng said:

I don't want to undermine Viv's performances in World Cups but back then world cup games were not taken seriously as things were still in their initial stages for limited overs cricket, for West Indian cricket fans of that era beating England in England 5-0 in a test series gave them the ultimate high, nothing better than dominating your colonial masters in the game they invented, world cup games had hardly any pressures. The fact that Gavaskar did not feel guilty at all of his 36* against England in 75 World Cup shows how seriously ODIs were taken. Sachin has never performed in World Cup finals but he did score in crucial games like Sharjah 1998 and 2008 CB series finals, still some knowledgeable cricket fans rate him above Viv in ODIs with justifiable reasons.

 

What my point is that Kohli does not need to perform in big World Cup games to be compared with Viv, if he maintains his freak performance like he is doing it now till he's 35-36, he may be justifiably the greatest ever to have played ODIs.

 

No. India did not focus on Odis in the 70s. Other countries were ahead of us and did take Odis and the World Cup seriously . Gavaskar is an all time favorite of mine. However if he was not guilty about that 36, it was because he was a total ass in that instance. He totally shrunk from the challenge to match England's 334 and he had a bit of a personal agenda because he thought that he, not Venkat, should have been leading the Indian side. I see your point about other games being significant e.g. the Sharjah games. But on the whole, I do think bilateral Odis lack context and it is difficult to say that they are equal in importance to World Cup games. Having said that, I agree that what Kohli is accomplishing is really good. And he isn't close to being done yet. I just think it is difficult to compare with someone who was literally a trailblazer in a different time. I think both sets of achievements stand alone independent of each other. I will illustrate this with another example. Sachin was the first guy who touched 200 in an odi. Since then Rohit has crossed that by some margin and is today's record holder. Yet, I don't think Rohit's innings puts Sachin's 200 into the shade. 

[Jimmy Cliff]

12 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

Your stats is referring to 5 innings out of their entire career. So Mahela/GUptill/Waugh are better than Sachin? In what world? Just tell me why do you rate Richards better than Guptill if this is your barometer to measure greatness. Tell me clearly.

Missed this earlier. You still aren't getting it. If Guptill was the standout batsman of this era in terms of avg. and SR (lets say averaging near 60 with a SR of 110+) over a good sample of games and had a great record in WC KOs, I'd have no problem rating him above Viv. The fact that he is no where near the best batsmen of his own era in terms of raw stats rules him out. The same applies to the likes of Mahela. Aravinda has the greatest WC Final performance of all time with 3/42 with the ball and a match-winning hundred while chasing against a very good AUS side. But is nowhere near the best batsmen of his own era in terms of overall record so he is ruled out too. To be considered the GOAT, a batsman must standout in his own era over a good sample of games (which Viv did to a greater degree than any of the other great ODI bats) while also delivering at the highest stage when it matters. Of all the great batsmen in ODI history - Viv, Dean Jones, SRT, Lara (when he batted in the top 3), Bevan, ABDV and Kohli, only Viv has done both of these things which is why he is the GOAT . IMO anyway.

[02/04/11]

The fact that this is even a debate when kohli is only 29 tells you all you need to know

[rtmohanlal]

13 hours ago, kira said:

People who bring kohli's wc record to downplay him should realize that kohli's wc record is just an aberration which will be corrected very soon.

 

Far lesser players than kohli have had great wc performance, it is idiotic to keep on harping about the same thing. Kohli was just a rookie in 2011 wc and he was unlucky that the 2015 wc coincided with his worst year in odi cricket, kohli averaged just 36 in 2015 so it is no wonder he didn't have a great wc that year.

Yes... but let him correct it first.'The best chaser of all time couldn't yet do it in the best stage of all time' will always give him demerit points in one one comparison with other ATG one day players.

[rtmohanlal]

14 hours ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

Nobody claimed he did well with the bat.

 

It was a good performance in a match context. Just as Srikkanth's 38 was a very good performance in a match context.

 

Nope. He delivered just a good performance after already having delivered MOTM performances in WC semi-finals and finals in his career. And if you consider his 33 in the final a "failure" in a low scoring game, Kohli's 1(13) in a perfectly gettable chase in the 2015 WC SF must be the worst innings in ODI history.

 

Nobody is saying he's the GOAT only because of his WC exploits. He's GOAT because apart from utterly bullying ODI cricket in a non batting friendly era, he also happened to bring his A game in WC's and more importantly in WC KOs. If you wanna be called the GOAT, merely dominating sub-strength sides in bilaterals ain't good enough. You have to do it at the biggest stage when it matters. Viv literally ticked all the boxes. Kohli hasn't at all.

 

Forget one or two innings, look at their overall records in WC KO's. Viv is predictably there or thereabouts at the top whereas Kohli is competing with the likes of Vettori for the worst record.

 

Kohli's record is pathetic to say the least.Amazed and disappointed with this.It is so strange that  a batsman with such wonderful track record in T20  knocks outs(where it gets even difficult to adjust  because of very few number of overs) has till now really struggled to do that  in one dayers. Hope he gets it corrected in the possibly 2 remaining world cups of his.If he maintains his supreme  fitness, he can even play 3 world cups.

[Jimmy Cliff]

11 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

Kohli's record is pathetic to say the least.Amazed and disappointed with this.It is so strange that  a batsman with such wonderful track record in T20  knocks outs(where it gets even difficult to adjust  because of very few number of overs) has till now really struggled to do that  in one dayers. Hope he gets it corrected in the possibly 2 remaining world cups of his.If he maintains his supreme  fitness, he can even play 3 world cups.

Well, **** happens. In some ways he's due a great performance or two at the business end of the WC and will hopefully deliver in 2019. Otherwise with our garbage middle order we are utterly *ed when we run into a decent side in the knock outs.

[cric_fan]

Kohli is ahead of his contemporaries in this era & Viv was ahead of the rest in his era.

 

It has to be said that modern cricket rules have been tilted in favour of batsmen..there is no balance. Take for example the Aus v NZ match from the other day...the size of the boundaries is a joke...friggin edges were going for sixes. ICC needs to step in a standardise the size of boundaries.

 

But take nothing away from Kohli..he’s only competition is ABD..who it seems has not much interest left for the game. The one thing Kohli needs to rectify is his stat in major tournament knock outs...time is still on his side... otherwise he may end his career as a bilateral king.