Jump to content

Hasn't ball tampering always been a concerted effort?


Recommended Posts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz3c85ta9i4

 

The above video is from the 1992 Pakistan tour of England where you can clearly see Wasim,Waqar and Aaqib using their nails to tamper with the ball and achieve prodigious reverse swing. Even dear old Richie Benaud goes "Steady On" when Aaqib Javed is caught by the TV cameras. Are we to believe that the manager and the coach were not aware that this was happening?  Earlier Chris Pringle had blatantly tampered with the ball in Pakistan and he stated that it was very easy to get away with it and this seems true because nobody suspected him of tampering till he admitted it himself. Fast forward to 2000 and Waqar Younis becomes the first cricketer to be charged for tampering after already having been warned once. The PCB initially protested the decision despite clear video evidence of Waqar and Azhar Mahmood tampering. Wasn't that proof that tampering was a team effort and that all and sundry were aware of it? Two questions

 

1) Is the legacy of Pakistan fast bowling merely because of the blatant tampering indulged in by IK,Wasim,Waqar and Akhtar?

2) Has Cricket Australia been extraordinarily harsh on Smith and co. since it is clear that at least one team(England also but they are smarter) has been doing it since 1982 atleast when Imran was at his so called peak and got away with it? 25 years of murder unpunished but 1 year bans for petty theft? Discuss. 

Link to comment

1) To a great deal. Imran and the 2 Ws were great bowlers nonetheless but got away with murder. That is why in spite of their stellar stats they will never be on my list of tier 1 ATGs (those in contention of GOAT) like Barnes, Trueman, Marshall, Mcgrath, Hadlee, Ambrose, Steyn etc. I pity the batsmen who had to regularly come up against Pak tamperers and chuckers the last 30 odd years, there will always be a huge question mark over their team's success in the 1975-2015 period, but unfortunately in cricket we don't have retrospective punishments. Tampering is till very much in the game and all teams do indulge in it but thankfully because of Ashwin the chucking menace is over. Ashwin has done more for the game than many greats even if you discount his stats column....the stunt he pulled off in Dhaka (2014 Asia Cup) has changed the game for the better, all people associated with cricket must thank him for helping us get rid of this chucking menace. Ball tampering is sadly here to stay, don't be surprised if during our Eng tour this summer on lush fields, we have reverse swing by the 30th over.

 

2) Extremely harsh. All teams tamper but Aussies were stupid enough to get caught. Still very harsh because even recently Faf Zipper (2 time offender) got away very lightly. Smith has taken the fall for the betterment of Aus cricket and the spirit of the game. At the peak of his career he will be missing 1 full year of cricket, only equivalent I can think of is Cassius Clay's hiatus after refusal to serve in the Vietnam war. Clay was wrong there just like Smith here, but unlike much bigger crooks they sacrificed their careers to atone for their wrongs. 

Link to comment
Quote

He said in the second test in Lahore he picked up the ball while batting and saw deep gouges on one side. The science and aerodynamics of it is tricky to explain, but Crowe couldn't fathom how Wasim Akram bowled six outswingers, then "six lethal inswingers", no matter what his levels of bowling wizardry.

Crowe said he complained to the umpires but it fell on deaf ears, so at training for the next test the New Zealanders experimented.

Pringle, in his autobiography Save The Last Ball For Me, said the bottle top technique got instant results in the nets. "Even guys like Mark Greatbatch and Martin Crowe were swinging the ball miles in the air," he wrote.

Crowe won the toss, sent Pakistan in and they were 35-0. Then, Pringle wrote, he produced the sharp bottle top at drinks and got to work on one side. Results were spectacular and he hooped the ball about, snaring 7-52 as Pakistan were skittled for 102. It remains in the top-five New Zealand test bowling figures.

"Neither umpire showed any concern or took any notice in what we were doing even though, at the end of the innings, the ball was very scratched," Pringle wrote.

"One side was shiny but there were lots of grooves and lines and deep gouges on the other side. It was so obvious. It was ripped to shreds."

Pringle sensed the umpires could tell what was going on but didn't want to get involved in any controversy, even as he became more brazen with his gouging. He even cut his finger in the process but said the umpires didn't question how blood came to be flowing.

Pringle took 4-100 in the second innings as Pakistan set New Zealand 243 to win. Waqar Younis took five to skittle them for 171, and Akram later rubbished New Zealand that they'd gained an unfair advantage.

"We felt we could bowl out any team. We had no need to tamper with the ball," he told ESPNCricinfo.

 

Link to comment
9 hours ago, Nikhil_cric said:

Is the legacy of Pakistan fast bowling merely because of the blatant tampering indulged in by IK,Wasim,Waqar and Akhtar?

this is true. if not for tampering they would be like present day pak bowlers. Akthar was fast through. Akram was very accurate with a very quick arm action and could have comeup with a slower ball that was super effective.

Link to comment
8 hours ago, Vilander said:

this is true. if not for tampering they would be like present day pak bowlers. Akthar was fast through. Akram was very accurate with a very quick arm action and could have comeup with a slower ball that was super effective.

This is true. Akhtar and Waqar had pace and Akram had a deceptively quick arm. However they would not had the kind of success they had without tampering . I remember the 2003 WC encounter between India and Pakistan wherein after getting hammered in the first 9 overs, Waqar and Akhtar were getting reverse from the 10th over onwards and Akhtar was seen digging his thumbnail into the ball!! He had been warned in Zimbabwe for the exact same thing and then finally convicted in Dambulla during a tri series a few months later. It is no surprise that with increase in cameras , reverse has declined since 2003

Link to comment

Umpire John Holder  has come up with this statement off late 'I caught India, Pakistan players tampering with the ball but could do little'

He was refering to one incident in 89 Lahore test. He even accuse Kapil of doing that. On one side Kapil   in a discussion  w.r.t ball tampering had  so confidently  dismissed that he never tampered with the ball stating in these lines that had he did  those sort of things he would easily have picked 500+ wickets.No wonder that even a honest player like Kapil would get accused when playing along side Prabhakar.It is natural to assume that  even if Prabhakar was the culprit , Kapil  had no option but to use the same ball. I strongly believe that would have been the case.

Link to comment
On 06/04/2018 at 4:47 PM, Nikhil_cric said:

This is true. Akhtar and Waqar had pace and Akram had a deceptively quick arm. However they would not had the kind of success they had without tampering . I remember the 2003 WC encounter between India and Pakistan wherein after getting hammered in the first 9 overs, Waqar and Akhtar were getting reverse from the 10th over onwards and Akhtar was seen digging his thumbnail into the ball!! He had been warned in Zimbabwe for the exact same thing and then finally convicted in Dambulla during a tri series a few months later. It is no surprise that with increase in cameras , reverse has declined since 2003

Lol . Would Kapil have averaged in the 50s if he did not tamper ?? : John holder

The likes of srinath and zaheer were surely club level if sachin and dravid werent playing the roles of Banctoft and duplessis at the time  .

Lol what a stupid argument .

Pakistan have just been better at the sport over the years . Move on man . 

Edited by the don
Link to comment
53 minutes ago, the don said:

Kapil has a pretty ordinary record for someone involved in ball tampering doesn't he ??

Prabhakar wasnt too flash either .

John Holder saying nothing new here .

All teams have indulged in the practice in one form or the other.

 

Kapil has so confidently and convincingly stated that he didn't  deal with those dirty tactics.Umpire Holder was only pointing to that specific Lahore test where in  Prabhakar also played.Quite naturally even if a single player(Prabhakar)  did  the dirty trick, it is natural that

his fellow bowlers too  had  to bowl with the same ball. Isn't it?Other than this incident(Prabhakar the culprit in this case)  there is no other incident that even remotely suggests that Kapil did tampering.What not if  you go thru  series wise stats from that 89 series onwards, Prabhakar was mediocre in each and every series he played except for 1 series in SL.All these suggests even Prabhakar might had involved in very little events other than that 89 PAK series.That being the  case it is utter rubbish to drag the name of Kapil in tampering as was the case with  a chronic tamperor like Imran.

Edited by rtmohanlal
Link to comment
9 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

Kapil has so confidently and convincingly stated that he didn't  deal with those dirty tactics.Umpire Holder was only pointing to that specific Lahore test where in  Prabhakar also played.Quite naturally even if a single player(Prabhakar)  did  the dirty trick, it is natural that

his fellow bowlers too  had  to bowl with the same ball. Isn't it?Other than this incident(Prabhakar the culprit in this case)  there is no other incident that even remotely suggests that Kapil did tampering.What not if  you go thru  series wise stats from that 89 series onwards, Prabhakar was mediocre in each and every series he played except for 1 series in SL.All these suggests even Prabhakar might had involved in very little events other than that 89 PAK series.That being the  case it is utter rubbish to drag the name of Kapil in tampering as was the case with  a chronic tamperor like Imran.

Lol umpire holder has specifically mentioned Kapil .

Kapil wasn't some junior in the side who would be forced to bowl with a tampered ball by Prabhakar .

I am not dragging his name . Neutral umpire holder is . I am just suggesting that despite tanpering some bowlers still have mediocre stats .

Link to comment
41 minutes ago, the don said:

Lol umpire holder has specifically mentioned Kapil .

Kapil wasn't some junior in the side who would be forced to bowl with a tampered ball by Prabhakar .

I am not dragging his name . Neutral umpire holder is . I am just suggesting that despite tanpering some bowlers still have mediocre stats .

even in the last ball tampering incident, umpires came to know that Bancroft was the tamperor  only because cameras caught him with substantial evidence. Otherwise even the umpires wouldn't have identified as to who actually was tampering the ball.Isn't it?? That being the case it is only sensible to understand that umpire  Holder could realise that tampering was going on only when ever he got the ball in hand .Naturally he would have doubted each and every bowler with out knowing as to who actually was the tamperor .That is easily understandable.And your claim that Kapil wasn't a junior doesn't make any sense because Kapil after all was only one team member.He wasn't the captain or coach or team manager.Naturally why he  needed to object bowling with the ball ???Yes I agree that Kapil too would have benefitted a little bit from the tampering done by Prabhakar in that particular match because Kapil too would be bowling with the same ball.Isn't it?Other than that there is virtually no like wise incident related even with Prabhakar.

I have watched the live discussion w.r.t ball tampering where Kapil so confidently states that he didn't ever resort to tampering.And Kapil's series wise stats too back up  that conclusion.All in all the case is so different when compared to the padosi Kaptaan Khan who was a chronic tamperor.Kaptaan's  flow of series wise stats too back  up that conclusion

Edited by rtmohanlal
Link to comment
4 hours ago, rtmohanlal said:

even in the last ball tampering incident, umpires came to know that Bancroft was the tamperor  only because cameras caught him with substantial evidence. Otherwise even the umpires wouldn't have identified as to who actually was tampering the ball.Isn't it?? That being the case it is only sensible to understand that umpire  Holder could realise that tampering was going on only when ever he got the ball in hand .Naturally he would have doubted each and every bowler with out knowing as to who actually was the tamperor .That is easily understandable.And your claim that Kapil wasn't a junior doesn't make any sense because Kapil after all was only one team member.He wasn't the captain or coach or team manager.Naturally why he  needed to object bowling with the ball ???Yes I agree that Kapil too would have benefitted a little bit from the tampering done by Prabhakar in that particular match because Kapil too would be bowling with the same ball.Isn't it?Other than that there is virtually no like wise incident related even with Prabhakar.

I have watched the live discussion w.r.t ball tampering where Kapil so confidently states that he didn't ever resort to tampering.And Kapil's series wise stats too back up  that conclusion.All in all the case is so different when compared to the padosi Kaptaan Khan who was a chronic tamperor.Kaptaan's  flow of series wise stats too back  up that conclusion

Lol you are talking about Kapil dev . Perhaps the most influential pace bowler in Indian history . Sure he did not have any influence . I believe you  Lol.

Doesn't matter what kapil says . Its irrelevant  . We are discussing what the umpire has said about him .  I was just pointing out his very averge bowling record  inspite of such allegations .

Link to comment
3 hours ago, the don said:

Lol you are talking about Kapil dev . Perhaps the most influential pace bowler in Indian history . Sure he did not have any influence . I believe you  Lol.

Doesn't matter what kapil says . Its irrelevant  . We are discussing what the umpire has said about him .  I was just pointing out his very averge bowling record  inspite of such allegations .

whether Kapil  had influence or not is the matter.It's just a matter of common sense to assume that  Kapil would have just minded his own business and didn't care about what Prabhakar or others(if captain or some others knew about it) were doing in the match.

you might believe what you want to believe. But I stand by the word of the  great player himself rather than that of  umpire Holder.

The reason I repeat is that even in these 30 odd camera days & far better technology aided playing days,  umpires  are not able to trace out players who are actually doing the tampering themselves just as happend in Bancroft's case.Then in those far lesser technology aided playing days it is only natural to assume that  umpires just couldn't trace out the original player tampering with the ball.Here also Holder is just naming  the 2 main bowlers who played for India in that test.And take notice that he is not naming the captain Srikkanth or other bowlers. It just shows it's virtually impossible as to trace out as to who actually is doing the dirty trick  in the ground even with the aid of such advanced technologies. And again I  accept that Kapil benefitted a little bit  in that match from the tampering done by Prabhakar or any other involved though what all he could do was consume 77 runs with out taking a single wicket.

 

An avg: of 29.64 after bowling 27740 balls in just 15 y & 5 months with very mediocre bowling support & with out resorting to ball tampering is a very good one.This is because I am not one who just takes avg: with out taking context into account.

Link to comment
21 hours ago, the don said:

Lol . Would Kapil have averaged in the 50s if he did not tamper ?? : John holder

The likes of srinath and zaheer were surely club level if sachin and dravid werent playing the roles of Banctoft and duplessis at the time  .

Lol what a stupid argument .

Pakistan have just been better at the sport over the years . Move on man . 

This is because only the English and the Pakistanis knew how to tamper the ball AND use it effectively. Sarfraz was playing county cricket sometime in '68 and that is where he picked up the 'art' of reverse swing which really was just tampering in the real sense. He did perfect it though and passed it on to Imran. Imran devastated India in 1982 with reverse swing and it was only after that Indians too started tampering.

Link to comment
9 hours ago, Nikhil_cric said:

This is because only the English and the Pakistanis knew how to tamper the ball AND use it effectively. Sarfraz was playing county cricket sometime in '68 and that is where he picked up the 'art' of reverse swing which really was just tampering in the real sense. He did perfect it though and passed it on to Imran. Imran devastated India in 1982 with reverse swing and it was only after that Indians too started tampering.

I think it is not correct to assume that 'Indians too started tampering' just because umpire Holder accused the Indians of that.More over this statement of Holder, though is enough to doubt even a legendary player like Kapil do not have enough in it to prove the repeated offense of Indian players w.r.t tampering.

 

Would elaborate reasons from  Kapil's point of view.First of all we need to go thru this link.

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=VWGMmfRctzEC&pg=PA195&lpg=PA195&dq=kapil+dev+if+i+tampered+with+ball+i+could+have+got+500+wkts&source=bl&ots=5D7kk5plW_&sig=9pZ2VuGFXI4yKjQoy7NKJRvVObs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjFyvurs63aAhVJqo8KHXvfBkgQ6AEIMDAB#v=onepage&q=kapil dev if i tampered with ball i could have got 500 wkts&f=false

 

        In the 83 PAK series most of the Indian players speculated that some thing was being done to the ball by the Pakistanis.Naturally it can be assumed in all probablity that Indians knew nothing about tampering that time.Soon  in 83 itself Kapil played in the  series vs WI  in India. After that he had his knee surgery.Till that point Kapil's record read at 62 tests,247 wkts @27.72 avg:. Balwinder Sandhu who has played a lot with Kapil dev (even in the 83 WI series in India and also  in that 83 PAK series) has stated with utmost assurance and sincerity that he never would place Imran over Kapil because of tampering  and that Kapil was a clean cricketer.Sandhu being such closely associated with these players and events would know much better than we people, isn't it???So it's  sure that Kapil

took  247 wkts in 62 tests at a very good avg: of  27.72 with out any tampering.

        After that his knee injury and subsequent surgery came.He didn't take adequate rest after surgery.The result was that  in his next 30 tests  he could  only pick 72 wkts @ 36.25.And more importantly  an avg: of 40.26 in 19 tests at home during this period.

If he tampered with the ball his figures would certainly have been much better isn't it???

       Then in the  next 2 series in WI and 'NZL at home' respectively Kapil was at his very best.Here too there is nothing to suggest that ball tampering took place because in WI Kapil had always been brilliant and against NZL he could feed of brilliant performance of 2  spin bowlers Ayub & Hirwani.

    After that the  89 series in PAK happend.As umpire Holder points out tampering would have happend mostly with malicious Prabhakar at the lead, keeping in mind as to what happend in that 83 series in PAK .But from all the things mentioned till now , we can assume Kapil to be innocent in this saga despite  surely being aware about what was going around him .Yes umpire Holder has pointed out Kapil's  name too.But we need to evaluate things  based on what happend in the latest Bancroft incident.Even with the aid of 30 or so cameras and such big screens and all ,the field umpires couldn't identify as to what was going on and to be more precise  as to who was the person behind tampering. It took around 1.30 hrs effort of cameras to identify that Bancroft was the culprit.If this is the case  in these much  highly technologically    advanced days, how could a middle aged umpire with out any technical assistance  trace out exactly as to who exactly  was tampering the ball among 11 players  spread distances apart  in a vast ground???Naturally when  ever the ball would have passed on to him, umpire Holder could have realized that ball was  being tampered with.But to think that he knew exactly the culprit behind the tampering  is big folly.Naturally he named the 2 main bowlers in the Indian camp and also Pak camp.One thing which can be agreed upon is that all the bowlers would benefit from a tampered ball  even if tampering  is only done by a single player. But it is naive to think that  Kapil got any benefit  when oppostion score happend to be 699/5  in the  lone inns in the concerned Lahore match.

 Malicious Prabhakar played 39 tests  in total and avg:ed a paltry 37.3.  1st test in 89 PAK tour  was only his  2nd test match.So at the worst case, even if Prabhakar tampered with the ball in all matches played in , there is nothing to suggest that he knew even the basics of proper tampering.Other wise how he could avg: only 37.3??? That means ,even if other bowlers too would benefit by ball tempering  in normal  cases , in Prabhakar's case  that would be practically nil.

   So all in all  ,it can be safely  assumed that 89 PAK tour has been the only instance  of occurance of  tampering in Kapil's career where he was not at all the culprit.

  

Link to comment
4 hours ago, Bilal78 said:

 

Just jeloused because Imran was a greater player than Kapil ever could be.

 

Imran missed 3 years of bowling in his peak years, keep coming up with the same excuses, a neutral umpire just called out Kapil for tampering you hypocrite.

you bloody idiot .... call some of your family  members 'hypocrite '. I need not feel jealous  about that chronic ball tamperor Imran  about whom  more than 10 cricket related people have accused of tampering the ball(even fellow Pakistanis like Sarfraz Nawaz,Aamer soahil,Shahbaz Shereef,Ramiz Raja,Shoaib  Akhtar etc etc have given testimonies ) . And what not, flow of his career stats too points to the fact that he was a chronic ball tamperor. Yes... Imran  missed 3 years of his  peak.... but the fact is that  he played  16 non stop tests (which he had never done before in his career till that time) starting from  13 Nov 1981  to  30 Jan 83 ( in just 14.5 months)  , picked as many wickets as possible due to  intense ball tampering ,badly injured his shin due to heavy workload and then paid the price of not being able to play in the next 3 years.You can't have it both ways idiot.

 

And now .... one more person added into the list of those coming with Imran's tampering expertise ..... umpire Holder

Edited by rtmohanlal
Link to comment
23 hours ago, rtmohanlal said:

I think it is not correct to assume that 'Indians too started tampering' just because umpire Holder accused the Indians of that.More over this statement of Holder, though is enough to doubt even a legendary player like Kapil do not have enough in it to prove the repeated offense of Indian players w.r.t tampering.

 

Would elaborate reasons from  Kapil's point of view.First of all we need to go thru this link.

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=VWGMmfRctzEC&pg=PA195&lpg=PA195&dq=kapil+dev+if+i+tampered+with+ball+i+could+have+got+500+wkts&source=bl&ots=5D7kk5plW_&sig=9pZ2VuGFXI4yKjQoy7NKJRvVObs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjFyvurs63aAhVJqo8KHXvfBkgQ6AEIMDAB#v=onepage&q=kapil dev if i tampered with ball i could have got 500 wkts&f=false

 

        In the 83 PAK series most of the Indian players speculated that some thing was being done to the ball by the Pakistanis.Naturally it can be assumed in all probablity that Indians knew nothing about tampering that time.Soon  in 83 itself Kapil played in the  series vs WI  in India. After that he had his knee surgery.Till that point Kapil's record read at 62 tests,247 wkts @27.72 avg:. Balwinder Sandhu who has played a lot with Kapil dev (even in the 83 WI series in India and also  in that 83 PAK series) has stated with utmost assurance and sincerity that he never would place Imran over Kapil because of tampering  and that Kapil was a clean cricketer.Sandhu being such closely associated with these players and events would know much better than we people, isn't it???So it's  sure that Kapil

took  247 wkts in 62 tests at a very good avg: of  27.72 with out any tampering.

        After that his knee injury and subsequent surgery came.He didn't take adequate rest after surgery.The result was that  in his next 30 tests  he could  only pick 72 wkts @ 36.25.And more importantly  an avg: of 40.26 in 19 tests at home during this period.

If he tampered with the ball his figures would certainly have been much better isn't it???

       Then in the  next 2 series in WI and 'NZL at home' respectively Kapil was at his very best.Here too there is nothing to suggest that ball tampering took place because in WI Kapil had always been brilliant and against NZL he could feed of brilliant performance of 2  spin bowlers Ayub & Hirwani.

    After that the  89 series in PAK happend.As umpire Holder points out tampering would have happend mostly with malicious Prabhakar at the lead, keeping in mind as to what happend in that 83 series in PAK .But from all the things mentioned till now , we can assume Kapil to be innocent in this saga despite  surely being aware about what was going around him .Yes umpire Holder has pointed out Kapil's  name too.But we need to evaluate things  based on what happend in the latest Bancroft incident.Even with the aid of 30 or so cameras and such big screens and all ,the field umpires couldn't identify as to what was going on and to be more precise  as to who was the person behind tampering. It took around 1.30 hrs effort of cameras to identify that Bancroft was the culprit.If this is the case  in these much  highly technologically    advanced days, how could a middle aged umpire with out any technical assistance  trace out exactly as to who exactly  was tampering the ball among 11 players  spread distances apart  in a vast ground???Naturally when  ever the ball would have passed on to him, umpire Holder could have realized that ball was  being tampered with.But to think that he knew exactly the culprit behind the tampering  is big folly.Naturally he named the 2 main bowlers in the Indian camp and also Pak camp.One thing which can be agreed upon is that all the bowlers would benefit from a tampered ball  even if tampering  is only done by a single player. But it is naive to think that  Kapil got any benefit  when oppostion score happend to be 699/5  in the  lone inns in the concerned Lahore match.

 Malicious Prabhakar played 39 tests  in total and avg:ed a paltry 37.3.  1st test in 89 PAK tour  was only his  2nd test match.So at the worst case, even if Prabhakar tampered with the ball in all matches played in , there is nothing to suggest that he knew even the basics of proper tampering.Other wise how he could avg: only 37.3??? That means ,even if other bowlers too would benefit by ball tempering  in normal  cases , in Prabhakar's case  that would be practically nil.

   So all in all  ,it can be safely  assumed that 89 PAK tour has been the only instance  of occurance of  tampering in Kapil's career where he was not at all the culprit.

  

Great points. I didn't mean to accuse anyone in particular of tampering and im sure if the indian team did tamper then it would have been only against Pakistan since they knew Immy and co. would be doing and getting away with it. The point I was trying to make was that teams did occasionally tamper the ball throughout history but nobody has tampered the ball so blatantly as the Pakistanis have done over the years and that would explain the late booming inswinger s bowled by the likes of Imran. It was only after Pakistanis made it the norm, that teams began to tamper in every other match and even then most teams never got the kind of swing that the Pakistanis did. 

Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...