Can Muslims be ever "reformed"? Could they ever come out of the religious brainwashing?

[Alam_dar]

@panther

 

May I request your response upon the Scientific Errors in Quran too? 

 

I know that off course you would deny at first that there are any scientific errors in Quran. But what if it somehow proves to you that indeed there are scientific errors in Quran? 

 

===

 

@dial_100

5 hours ago, dial_100 said:

what lucky? He is shamelessly justifying it. I see that they are the most unluckiest ones that they dont even have simple aptitude to understand that such disgraceful commandments should be thrown out of window. These followers go on to call other worst people. He audaciously uses God's name to justify his disbelief. These are educated ones. Anpadh, gawar and Jahils are much beyond this point who are even ready to kill others.

He was lucky one to know the hidden truth about Islam, but still unfortunate to not to learn a lesson from it. 

 

And you are very correct when you pointed out this mindset of even the educated Muslims. 

 

If the educated Muslims could believe in humiliation of the minorities at this scale, then we could also expect from them the "Suicide Bombing" upon the innocent civilians in the next step, and there would be no difference between an educated or a Jahil uneducated Muslim here. 

 

5 hours ago, dial_100 said:

This cannot be undone. These teachings will only die with them. 

Don't give up so early. There are still a chance of reform. 

 

In my experience, one dose of humanity is not enough. 

There are many more issues with Islam, where humanity will keep on teaching these people a lesson. 

And then comes many doses from the science too where it proves the errors in Quran.

 

And when these 2 are not enough, then there is a 3rd weapon too. These are the series of articles which shows the mistakes/blunders in the REVELATION. After reading these blunders, one is able to recognise that such Revelation could never be from a divine god. Then people realize that these revelations are making the "human mistakes". Then they start seeing the things critically and question themselves for the first time if Prophet Muhammad was not himself playing the drama of Allah?

 

I also not left Islam after the first dose of humanity. It took me years, and many doses of humanity, science and then finally Prophet's dramas of playing god, and only after all of them I became convinced and succeeded in leaving Islam. 

[panther]

4 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

To @panther

 

(1) Have you ever thought when Jizya is in itself the biggest humiliation (as you say), then what is the need for this extra humiliation of xenophobic nature? 

To encourage more conversion to Islam by favouring the enviroment for Muslims.

 

(2) Then there are many civilians, old men, women and children who have nothing to do with the war.

And there are many who are being born to their Dhimmi parents. 

But they are also compelled to pay the Jizya, and still be humiliated in worst manner.

Does the Humanity within you tells you that this is exactly the correct Divine Justice?  

I thought you studied exhaustively on Islam?, only Men pay Jizya.

(3) Allah claims "There is NO compulsion in the Religion". 

Doesn't the humanity telling you that Allah is contradicting himself here, while this humiliation is itself a compulsion?

There is no compulsion on Non belivers to Convert that is what this verse means.

 

(4) Did you ever think about it,  that Muslim Countries are week, and if Non Muslims want then they could enslave all of them and humiliate them, their women, their children? Are you ready for this same kind of humiliation? 

This has happened numerous times in history it is the way of life the powerful dominate.

(5) Don't you think if Hindus come to know this real face of Islam (the Darker side  which Mullahs and Muslims are trying their best to hide), then what would they do with the Muslim minority in India? 

let's see what they will do.

=====

 

To @Rest of the Members here ... please note these points:

 

(1) Although Mr. panther still preferred religion of the voice of humanity, but believe me this is not the case with "all" the Muslims. There are millions of Muslims, who have more humanity alive in themselves and they would show strong reaction against this xenophobic behaviour of Islam. 

 

Moreover, if the new converts into Islam ever know about this xenophobic side of Islam, then for sure there will be hardly any conversion. This conversion process is only successful, while Mullahs have very successfully hidden this darker side of Islam from the new converts. 

 

(2)  Taliban ones tried to compel the Hindus in Afghanistan to wear only the Saffron dress so that they could be identified for humiliation. But there was extremely strong reaction against it in Pakistan. But people  in Pakistan thought that Taliban were doing it at their own. They didn't know that Taliban were only acting upon the Sharia orders. 

Mullahs of Pakistan were clever enough to understand the intensity of this reaction. So they also didn't tell the public that it is Islam which Taliban were acting upon. 

 

(3) Main Issue/Problem is this that 99% Muslims still don't know this xenophobic darker side of Islam. 

Even Mr. Panther seems to be not aware of the scope of this humiliation as has been shown by Umar Ibn Khattab (the 2nd Caliph). 

 

(4) My question is, why the Non-Muslim world let the Mullahs succeed in their attempt to hide this darker side of Islam? 

Yes, we are loosing this war against the Mullahs/Religious Muslims by not letting the world aware of this darker side of Islam. 

 

If we only expose this side of Islam to the world, then there would not even be 5% of the conversions that are taking place at the moment. And millions of Muslims could abandon Islam after knowing it. 

 

(5) Mr. Panther is in a Muslim majority country of Pakistan, where he could be bold enough and still say to bring such humiliation to the Non-Muslims. 

But this will not be the case with those Muslims who are living as minorities in other countries. We have already seen that the Muslims of India enthusiastically call for the Secularism instead of a sharia system unlike their brothers in Pakistan. 

Same thing will happen in this case. Big numbers of the Indian Muslims will condemn it and disassociate themselves from it. 

 

====

 

@Mariyam

 

May I request your response on this issue as a moderate Muslim? 

 

I request for no "diplomatic" answers, but your honest opinion. 

Did you already know this scope of humiliation of Non-Muslims in Islam? 

Are you disturbed about it?

Or do you still feel yourself comfortable with it? 

 

In bold

[Nikhil_cric]

When the work of scholars like Tom Holland, Gerard Puin, Patricia Crone etc. becomes a part of the mainstream discourse and myths such as the Quran being an original text with no antecedents are finally put to rest. Also when more Muslims are literate and have the ability to think critically and accept these new findings for themselves that most of their "Islamic" history is either pure fabrication or borrowed concepts which were misconstrued and put across in a book that is still not fully intelligible  . In other words , it's gonna take a looong time.

[Alam_dar]

1 hour ago, panther said:

In bold

After doing my job of exposing the xenophobic dark side of Islam in light, I leave you, and other Muslims like you with extreme views, alone. 

 

And my concentration is on those Muslims and the New Converts who still have not lost their humanity totally due to the religious brainwashing. Unlike you, they get a shock from this darker side of Islam. 

 

Another targeted community is the Non-Muslims. It is very important that they also get aware of what dangers they are going to face from Islam and the Muslims. At moment they are totally in dark and not prepared. Once they become aware of the true intentions of the Muslims, then they could give the stick to the Muslims at the right time. 

 

This stick to the Indian Muslims already made them to cry loud for the Secularism. But this stick will grow many time bigger if the Non-Muslims become aware of true face and intentions of the Muslims. 

 

===

 

While Muslims too feel the humanity, therefore according to the history, almost none of the Muslim Rulers after Umar bin Abdulaziz was able to maintain this level of humiliation of the Dhimmies. Even Aurangzeb also failed to follow the Sharia ruling regarding this humiliation. 

 

PS:

Civilian Men of Dhimmities also had to pay the Jizya, although they had nothing to do with war. And women and Children have to undergo the humiliation, although they also played no role in the war. 

And humanity guides clearly that conversion should happen only through Tableegh/Preaching which changes the Heart. While humiliation does not changes the heart, but it compels the people to become hypocrite. You may still keep on denying it, but no one is going to agree with you in this matter, except for your blinded extremist Muslim friends. 

[Alam_dar]

1 hour ago, Nikhil_cric said:

When the work of scholars like Tom Holland, Gerard Puin, Patricia Crone etc. becomes a part of the mainstream discourse and myths such as the Quran being an original text with no antecedents are finally put to rest. Also when more Muslims are literate and have the ability to think critically and accept these new findings for themselves that most of their "Islamic" history is either pure fabrication or borrowed concepts which were misconstrued and put across in a book that is still not fully intelligible  . In other words , it's gonna take a looong time.

We should be thankful to these scholarly works of these people. It showed light to the humanity in the darkness. 

 

Nevertheless, my concerns are: 

 

* The scholarly works are normally not suitable for the common people. 

Normal person finds himself lost in the depth of the informations. Then Muslims come up with thousands of lame excuses (as their normal usual tactics) and things get more confused for normal people. At the end, it becomes difficult for normal people to come to a conclusion. 

 

* If we have to make normal people aware of the things, then we need short and concise articles, which are written in a "modern" way and could be propagated through facebook/internet easily. 

 

* During my research, I also noted that normally the emphasis was mainly put upon the Quran in the scholarly works, and this caused a negligence on few other very Important issues. Although these other issues have potential to bring more success with little effort. 

For example, the incident of Gharaniq. 

It is a must known Incident, but 99.99% Muslims have no idea what that is. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Alam_dar]

Eample 3: Driving sexual pleasures from the naked body of minor girls and babys (know as Mufakhiza in Islam)

 

As I already pointed out:

 

* Today we hear 99% time debate only upon the marriage of Aisha at the age of 9. 
But here we have "totally" forgetten "Mufakhiza" in Islam, which is much more worst than the case of Aisha. 

 

* There are not even 0.1% Muslims in the world who know any thing about Mufakhiza in Islam. Religious Muslims hide it successfully, and they are winning this war. 

 

* Only if Muslims (especially Muslim Parents) come to know about Mufakhiza, then they will shun Islam. 

They have already shunned the practice of marrying their daughters at age of 9. But still they didn't shun Islam itself while Mullahs somehow made them to believe that 9 years old girl used to menstruate  in Arabia and thus it is ok to have sex with 9 years old girl.  

But in this case, Muslim parents will not only shun the Mufakhiza, but they will also shun the Islam, as one has to be total blind and beast and empty of humanity, in order to believe this Sharia of Mufakhiza. 

 

 

Mufakhiza in Islam:

 

So, what is this Islamic Mufakhiza actually? Muslim Scholars define Mufakhiza as "Rubbing your Penis in the thighs of minor girl/baby in order to ejaculate". While "penetration" could also be done if Muslim husband thinks that she is "strong" enough. 

 

Islamweb.Net is the largest Muslim website on the Internet. It writes (link):

الاستمتاع بالزوجة الصغيرة.. رؤية شرعية ۔۔۔
فإنه لا حرجَ في تقبيلِ الزوجة الصغيرة بشهوة والمفاخذة ونحوَ ذلك ولو كانت لا تطيقُ الجماع
وقد بيَّنَ العلماء أن الأصلَ جوازُ استمتاع الرجل بزوجته كيف شاء إذا لم يكن ضرر
وذكروا في ذلك استمناءَه بيدها ومداعبَتها وتقبيلَها وغير ذلك

Taking Sexual Pleasures from the Minor Wife:

There is no shame and problem to kiss the minor wife with lust, and to do "Mufakhiza" (i.e. rubbing your penis between the thighs of the minor girl/baby), or any other similar acts so that you could ejaculate. There is permission of all this, even if the minor girl (/baby) is not strong enough to be "penetrated" ... Therefore, husband could make the minor girl to masturbate him, do forplay with her (naked body including vagina), and to kiss her and other similar acts. 

 

Then Islamweb.net repeats this Fatwa at another place and mentions dozens of early Islamic Scholars and Jurists who wrote about it (link). 

 

The 2nd largest Muslim website on the internet is "Islamonline.net". It is repeating this fatwa here (link)

 

The 3rd largest Muslim website is "Islamport". Same fatwa issued there (link). 

 

 

"Ijma" (Unanimity) of Muslim Jurists/Scholars on marriage/penetration with minor girl in light of Quran:

 

يَئِسْنَ مِنَ ٱلْمَحِيضِ مِن نِّسَآئِكُمْ إِنِ ٱرْتَبْتُمْ فَعِدَّتُهُنَّ ثَلاَثَةُ أَشْهُرٍ وَٱللاَّئِي لَمْ يَحِضْنَ وَأُوْلاَتُ ٱلأَحْمَالِ أَجَلُهُنَّ أَن يَضَعْنَ حَمْلَهُنَّ وَمَن يَتَّقِ ٱللَّهَ يَجْعَل لَّهُ مِنْ أَمْرِهِ يُسْراً

If you have any doubt whether your wives have reached the stage of menopause, the waiting period will be three months. This will also be the same for those who do not yet experience menstruation (due to the minor age). (Quran 65:4)

 

Ibn Kathir writes in commentary of this verse (link):

The same for the young, who have not reached the years of menstruation. Their `Iddah is three months like those in menopause. 

 

Largest Saudi Salafi Fatwa website Islam Q&A writes under this verse (link):

The same applies to the ‘idaah (i.e. waiting period) for girls who do not yet menstruate because they are too young, if their husbands divorce them after consummating the marriage (i.e. penetration) with them. 

 

(Note: According to Quran (49:33), there is no Waiting Period for woman if the husband has not penetrated after the marriage. Therefore, in case of minor girls to, the Waiting Period of 3 months becomes compulsory only if their husbands have done the penetration).

 

Edited June 5, 2018 by Alam_dar

[Mariyam]

On 6/4/2018 at 8:01 AM, Alam_dar said:

 

@Mariyam

May I request your response on this issue as a moderate Muslim? 

I request for no "diplomatic" answers, but your honest opinion. 

Did you already know this scope of humiliation of Non-Muslims in Islam? 

Are you disturbed about it?

Or do you still feel yourself comfortable with it? 

 

I wasn't aware about the concept of 'humiliation'. Neither have I heard about it the way you've mentioned it .

If true it is disturbing. 

 

 

[Mariyam]

On 6/3/2018 at 5:13 PM, Alam_dar said:

Let me talk about my observations. 

 

There is one thing which is known as "supporting the Secularism", and there is another thing which is known as "misusing and abusing the Secularism". 

 

I am afraid that Indian Muslims (at least the Ulama and the Muslim leaders and the religious ones)  are only intended to "use the Secularism". 

 

For example, supporting the Secularism means forgetting all about religion and race and keeping the humanity above all. This is the very basics of Secularism which does not differentiate between the human beings.  

 

While the Muslims (the Mullahs and the religious ones) keep the religion over the humanity and they do differentiate the human beings on the bases of religion. This is known as the "misusing of Secularism". 

 

For example, a Hindu boy has been killed while he wanted to marry a Muslim Girl. This act of killing has widespread blessing of the Muslim community. 

 

Mullahs and religious Indian Muslims don't encourage the Love, but they encourage the "conversion in name of love". They tell the Muslim youth to convert the Hindu girl and then marry her. But if any Muslim boy wants to marry a Hindu girl without conversion, then such act is not allowed, severely criticized and discouraged  by the Majority of the Muslim community. 

Muslims of India (even the Mullahs one) take the name of Secularism enthusiastically when they want to stop the building of Ram Mandir. They take the name of Secularism when they want Quota for themselves in the Jobs. They take the name of Secular India when they want to have the personal Muslim laws for them ... but  unfortunately, this secularism vanishes when it comes to them giving equal rights to the non-Muslims and showing true spirits of secularism. 

 

This act did not have the wide spread blessing of the local community. Members of the Muslim community testified in the courts against the killers.

The rest of your post raises valid questions and warrants a reply. I shall get back to you on it.

[cric_fan]

Eample 3: Driving sexual pleasures from the naked body of minor girls and babys (know as Mufakhiza in Islam)
 
As I already pointed out:
 
* Today we hear 99% time debate only upon the marriage of Aisha at the age of 9. 
But here we have "totally" forgetten "Mufakhiza" in Islam, which is much more worst than the case of Aisha. 
 
* There are not even 0.1% Muslims in the world who know any thing about Mufakhiza in Islam. Religious Muslims hide it successfully, and they are winning this war. 
 
* Only if Muslims (especially Muslim Parents) come to know about Mufakhiza, then they will shun Islam. 
They have already shunned the practice of marrying their daughters at age of 9. But still they didn't shun Islam itself while Mullahs somehow made them to believe that 9 years old girl used to menstruate  in Arabia and thus it is ok to have sex with 9 years old girl.  
But in this case, Muslim parents will not only shun the Mufakhiza, but they will also shun the Islam, as one has to be total blind and beast and empty of humanity, in order to believe this Sharia of Mufakhiza. 
 
 
Mufakhiza in Islam:
 
So, what is this Islamic Mufakhiza actually? Muslim Scholars define Mufakhiza as "Rubbing your Penis in the thighs of minor girl/baby in order to ejaculate". While "penetration" could also be done if Muslim husband thinks that she is "strong" enough. 
 
Islamweb.Net is the largest Muslim website on the Internet. It writes (link):
الاستمتاع بالزوجة الصغيرة.. رؤية شرعية ۔۔۔
فإنه لا حرجَ في تقبيلِ الزوجة الصغيرة بشهوة والمفاخذة ونحوَ ذلك ولو كانت لا تطيقُ الجماع
وقد بيَّنَ العلماء أن الأصلَ جوازُ استمتاع الرجل بزوجته كيف شاء إذا لم يكن ضرر
وذكروا في ذلك استمناءَه بيدها ومداعبَتها وتقبيلَها وغير ذلك
Taking Sexual Pleasures from the Minor Wife:
There is no shame and problem to kiss the minor wife with lust, and to do "Mufakhiza" (i.e. rubbing your penis between the thighs of the minor girl/baby), or any other similar acts so that you could ejaculate. There is permission of all this, even if the minor girl (/baby) is not strong enough to be "penetrated" ... Therefore, husband could make the minor girl to masturbate him, do forplay with her (naked body including vagina), and to kiss her and other similar acts. 
 
Then Islamweb.net repeats this Fatwa at another place and mentions dozens of early Islamic Scholars and Jurists who wrote about it (link). 
 
The 2nd largest Muslim website on the internet is "Islamonline.net". It is repeating this fatwa here (link)
 
The 3rd largest Muslim website is "Islamport". Same fatwa issued there (link). 
 
 
"Ijma" (Unanimity) of Muslim Jurists/Scholars on marriage/penetration with minor girl in light of Quran:
 
يَئِسْنَ مِنَ ٱلْمَحِيضِ مِن نِّسَآئِكُمْ إِنِ ٱرْتَبْتُمْ فَعِدَّتُهُنَّ ثَلاَثَةُ أَشْهُرٍ وَٱللاَّئِي لَمْ يَحِضْنَ وَأُوْلاَتُ ٱلأَحْمَالِ أَجَلُهُنَّ أَن يَضَعْنَ حَمْلَهُنَّ وَمَن يَتَّقِ ٱللَّهَ يَجْعَل لَّهُ مِنْ أَمْرِهِ يُسْراً
If you have any doubt whether your wives have reached the stage of menopause, the waiting period will be three months. This will also be the same for those who do not yet experience menstruation (due to the minor age). (Quran 65:4)
 
Ibn Kathir writes in commentary of this verse (link):
The same for the young, who have not reached the years of menstruation. Their `Iddah is three months like those in menopause. 
 
Largest Saudi Salafi Fatwa website Islam Q&A writes under this verse (link):
The same applies to the ‘idaah (i.e. waiting period) for girls who do not yet menstruate because they are too young, if their husbands divorce them after consummating the marriage (i.e. penetration) with them. 
 
(Note: According to Quran (49:33), there is no Waiting Period for woman if the husband has not penetrated after the marriage. Therefore, in case of minor girls to, the Waiting Period of 3 months becomes compulsory only if their husbands have done the penetration).
 

So your sources are online websites.

I gave up on you when you mentioned the fatwa of the grand mufti as justifification in your earlier posts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[cric_fan]

Eample 3: Driving sexual pleasures from the naked body of minor girls and babys (know as Mufakhiza in Islam)
 
As I already pointed out:
 
* Today we hear 99% time debate only upon the marriage of Aisha at the age of 9. 
But here we have "totally" forgetten "Mufakhiza" in Islam, which is much more worst than the case of Aisha. 
 
* There are not even 0.1% Muslims in the world who know any thing about Mufakhiza in Islam. Religious Muslims hide it successfully, and they are winning this war. 
 
* Only if Muslims (especially Muslim Parents) come to know about Mufakhiza, then they will shun Islam. 
They have already shunned the practice of marrying their daughters at age of 9. But still they didn't shun Islam itself while Mullahs somehow made them to believe that 9 years old girl used to menstruate  in Arabia and thus it is ok to have sex with 9 years old girl.  
But in this case, Muslim parents will not only shun the Mufakhiza, but they will also shun the Islam, as one has to be total blind and beast and empty of humanity, in order to believe this Sharia of Mufakhiza. 
 
 
Mufakhiza in Islam:
 
So, what is this Islamic Mufakhiza actually? Muslim Scholars define Mufakhiza as "Rubbing your Penis in the thighs of minor girl/baby in order to ejaculate". While "penetration" could also be done if Muslim husband thinks that she is "strong" enough. 
 
Islamweb.Net is the largest Muslim website on the Internet. It writes (link):
الاستمتاع بالزوجة الصغيرة.. رؤية شرعية ۔۔۔
فإنه لا حرجَ في تقبيلِ الزوجة الصغيرة بشهوة والمفاخذة ونحوَ ذلك ولو كانت لا تطيقُ الجماع
وقد بيَّنَ العلماء أن الأصلَ جوازُ استمتاع الرجل بزوجته كيف شاء إذا لم يكن ضرر
وذكروا في ذلك استمناءَه بيدها ومداعبَتها وتقبيلَها وغير ذلك
Taking Sexual Pleasures from the Minor Wife:
There is no shame and problem to kiss the minor wife with lust, and to do "Mufakhiza" (i.e. rubbing your penis between the thighs of the minor girl/baby), or any other similar acts so that you could ejaculate. There is permission of all this, even if the minor girl (/baby) is not strong enough to be "penetrated" ... Therefore, husband could make the minor girl to masturbate him, do forplay with her (naked body including vagina), and to kiss her and other similar acts. 
 
Then Islamweb.net repeats this Fatwa at another place and mentions dozens of early Islamic Scholars and Jurists who wrote about it (link). 
 
The 2nd largest Muslim website on the internet is "Islamonline.net". It is repeating this fatwa here (link)
 
The 3rd largest Muslim website is "Islamport". Same fatwa issued there (link). 
 
 
"Ijma" (Unanimity) of Muslim Jurists/Scholars on marriage/penetration with minor girl in light of Quran:
 
يَئِسْنَ مِنَ ٱلْمَحِيضِ مِن نِّسَآئِكُمْ إِنِ ٱرْتَبْتُمْ فَعِدَّتُهُنَّ ثَلاَثَةُ أَشْهُرٍ وَٱللاَّئِي لَمْ يَحِضْنَ وَأُوْلاَتُ ٱلأَحْمَالِ أَجَلُهُنَّ أَن يَضَعْنَ حَمْلَهُنَّ وَمَن يَتَّقِ ٱللَّهَ يَجْعَل لَّهُ مِنْ أَمْرِهِ يُسْراً
If you have any doubt whether your wives have reached the stage of menopause, the waiting period will be three months. This will also be the same for those who do not yet experience menstruation (due to the minor age). (Quran 65:4)
 
Ibn Kathir writes in commentary of this verse (link):
The same for the young, who have not reached the years of menstruation. Their `Iddah is three months like those in menopause. 
 
Largest Saudi Salafi Fatwa website Islam Q&A writes under this verse (link):
The same applies to the ‘idaah (i.e. waiting period) for girls who do not yet menstruate because they are too young, if their husbands divorce them after consummating the marriage (i.e. penetration) with them. 
 
(Note: According to Quran (49:33), there is no Waiting Period for woman if the husband has not penetrated after the marriage. Therefore, in case of minor girls to, the Waiting Period of 3 months becomes compulsory only if their husbands have done the penetration).
 

I searched ‘Mufakhiza’ with no results.

No such thing exists. The links you provided are blocked.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Alam_dar]

1 hour ago, cric_fan said:

So your sources are online websites.

I gave up on you when you mentioned the fatwa of the grand mufti as justifification in your earlier posts.

 

 

1 hour ago, cric_fan said:

I searched ‘Mufakhiza’ with no results.

No such thing exists. The links you provided are blocked.

 

 

1.  I have updated the links, and now all of them should work. 

 

2. These Websites are the largest Fatwa Websites of the Grand Mufties, who are followed by the MAJORITY of Muslims at moment. And these Mufties are telling there is an "IJMA" (unanimity) upon this issue among all the Salaf (early) Muslim Jurists and nobody differed from it. 

 

It may be that you don't follow the Saudi Grand Muftis, but I hope you don't blame them for telling a lie about this Ijma, while they have also quoted the earlier Ulama. 

 

3. And it is Quran (verse 65:4) which these grand Muftis quoted about "penetration" in the minor girls, after which the iddah (the waiting period) becomes necessary. 

All the Early commentaries of Quran are testifying to this. I already quoted Ibn Kathir above. 

Here one more from Modoudi's Tafseer of verse 65:4 (link):

They may not have menstruated as yet either because of young age, or delayed menstrual discharge as it happens in the case of some women, the waiting-period of such a woman is the same as of the woman, who has stopped menstruation, that is three months from the time divorce was pronounced.
Here, one should bear in mind the fact that according to the explanations given in the Qur'an the question of the waiting period arises in respect of the women with whom marriage may have been consummated, for there is no waiting-period in case divorce is pronounced before the consummation of marriage. (Al-Ahzab: 49). Therefore, making mention of the waiting-period for the girls who have not yet menstruated, clearly proves that it is not only permissible to give away the girl in marriage at this age but it is also pemssible for the husband to consummate marriage with her. Now, obviously no Muslim has the right to forbid a thing which the Qur'an has held as permissible.

I wonder what more proof one need after the testimony of Quran itself?

 

4. If you are not finding the word "Mufakhiza" today in English, then the reason is simple. 

Religious Muslims don't want the people to know about it. They try to hide it. But Arabic fatwa sides were compelled to write about it while few Arabic people did get the access to this information, and then they had to reply it. 

 

So, please search the Arabic word مفاخذة and you will see the results (or just browse the Arabic Links of Fatwa Websites that I posted above and now they are working). 

 

In Arabic, it is known as https://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/مفاخذة

And in English, it is known as  Intercrural sex  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercrural_sex

 

And another one of the largest Website of Muslims is Islamonline.net, which says the similar thing (link):

فإنه لا ضررَ في الإنزالِ بين فخذي الصغيرة التي لا تطيقُ الجماع وتتضررُ به إذا كان ذلك الإنزالُ بدونِ إيلاج، وقد بَيَّنَ العلماءُ أن الأصلَ هو جوازُ استمتاعِ الرجلِ بزوجتِه كيف شاء إذا لم يكن ضرر
There is no problem if husband rubs his penis between the thighs of minor girl in order to ejaculate the sperm, even the minor girl does not possess the ability for penetration... According to the Islamic Scholars husband is allowed to enjoy the minor wife in every possible way till the time she is not harmed.

Yet another one of the largest Muslim website is Islamport, which says (link)

وإذا تزوج الرجل الكبير البنت الصغيرة جاز له أن يستمتع بها بكل أنواع الاستمتاع المباحة شرعا.
If an adult man marries a minor girl, then he is allowed to enjoy her in every way. It is fully allowed in the Islamic Sharia.

 

English Fatwa Website (if you don't know the Arabic):

 

And the biggest Muslim Fatwa website Islam q&a says there is Consensu (Ijma) upon it among all the Salaf generations of Muslims:
https://islamqa.info/en/12708

Marriage to a young girl before she reaches puberty is permissible according to sharee’ah, and it was narrated that there was scholarly consensus on this point (i.e. All jurists along with 4 Imams agree upon it).

1 – Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the ‘Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubt (about their periods), is three months; and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their ‘Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise”

[al-Talaaq 65:4]

In this verse we see that Allaah states that for those who do not menstruate – because they are young and have not yet reached the age of puberty – the ‘iddah in the case of divorce is three months. This clearly indicates that it is permissible for a young girl who has not started her periods to marry.

Al-Tabari (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

The interpretation of the verse “And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the ‘Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubt (about their periods), is three months; and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their ‘Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise”. He said: The same applies to the ‘idaah for girls who do not menstruate because they are too young, if their husbands divorce them after consummating the marriage with them.

Tafseer al-Tabari, 14/142

 

At another place, this same Saudi Mufti writes (again directly in English):
https://islamqa.info/en/27305

If she has not reached the age of puberty, then her father has the sole right to arrange her marriage and does not have to ask her permission. 
Ibn Qudaamah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: With regard to a virgin who is still a minor, there is no difference of opinion concerning her (i.e., that her father may marry her off even if she objects). Ibn al-Mundhir said: Every scholar from whom we learned was agreed that it is permissible for a man to marry off his virgin daughter who is still a minor, if he marries her to someone who is compatible, and it is permissible for him to marry her off even if she objects and refuses.” Al-Mughni, 9/398

 

Imam Bukhari on Nikah with minor child girl:

Imam Bukhari gave the following heading to the chapter about marriage of Aisha:

Sahih Bukhari, Book of Marriage (link):
باب إِنْكَاحِ الرَّجُلِ وَلَدَهُ الصِّغَارَ
A man can give his minor daughter in marriage. 
لِقَوْلِهِ تَعَالَى: {وَاللاَّئِي لَمْ يَحِضْنَ} فَجَعَلَ عِدَّتَهَا ثَلاَثَةَ أَشْهُرٍ قَبْلَ الْبُلُوغِ.
Allah said (in Quran 65:4): ... and for those minor girls who didn't start mensturating. This means their waiting period is 3 months

Imam Ibn Hajar al-Asqallani writes in his commentary of Sahih Bukhari (link):

" يجوز تزويج الصغيرة بالكبير إجماعا ولو كانت في المهد"
It is unanimous (Ijma) that an adult man can marry any minor girl, even if she is so small that she is in a cradle (i.e. even if she is a 6 months baby). 

[mishra]

@Alam_dar

A japanese born child born in US speaks English. Why? Because Human brain can be trained.

What is ethically/ morally wrong can become ethically and morally correct.

 

There was a time when British Intellectual men and women/media genuinely thought/believed/propogated that some men/women are wrong asking for women to have right to vote.

Same is repeated now when British Intellectual men and women/media genuinely thinks/believe/propagates that people are wrong when they ask for a Buraqa ban. Because Muslim women must dress "modestly"

 

 

 

 

[Alam_dar]

1 hour ago, mishra said:

@Alam_dar

A japanese born child born in US speaks English. Why? Because Human brain can be trained.

What is ethically/ morally wrong can become ethically and morally correct.

 

There was a time when British Intellectual men and women/media genuinely thought/believed/propogated that some men/women are wrong asking for women to have right to vote.

Same is repeated now when British Intellectual men and women/media genuinely thinks/believe/propagates that people are wrong when they ask for a Buraqa ban. Because Muslim women must dress "modestly"

Exactly. 

Unfortunately, human mind is weak enough to be a prey of such "brainwashing". 

 

Human morality has travelled a long way in this century and many such things of the past have vanished today. 

 

Problem with Islam is this that according to it's rules, it could not be changed with time. Only Allah revealed the Sharia and no one is allowed to change the Sharia and it will exist as it is till the day of judgement. 

 

Now Muslims have great problems. There are many Sharia orders in Islam which are not acceptable in the light of modern Morality and science. 

 

Muslims could neither practice these Sharia orders nor deny them. Only way left for them to scape is to hide them, as they have done with Humiliating the Non-Muslims and still claiming for equal rights for Non-Muslims in an Islamic State. Or as they could neither practice sex with minor girls/babies today, nor they could deny it. So, they try to hide it or deny it by making lame excuses. 

 

PS:

I have to write about Hijab too, and how only after a short discussion, we could attain better success in opening the eyes of Muslims in this matter. Otherwise I see only long discussions, and no results. 

 

Edited June 5, 2018 by Alam_dar

[MechEng]

@Alam_dar  I have always wondered  why is out of box thinking strongly discouraged in Abrahamic religions? Why everything needs rigid set of rules? Are they afraid of unpredictability?

[Alam_dar]

5 hours ago, MechEng said:

@Alam_dar  I have always wondered  why is out of box thinking strongly discouraged in Abrahamic religions? Why everything needs rigid set of rules? Are they afraid of unpredictability?

I think they are afraid of the higher Power/Deity. 

And all the problems are originating from this fear. 

This fear is prohibiting them to look at issues "critically" and use the power of their own minds in order to differentiate between the right and the wrong. 

 

Muslims are told it is only the right of Allah to give the system and law (Sharia), and the duty of the human beings is only to obey it, without questioning, while Allah is the most Wise. 

 

 

 

[MechEng]

33 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

I think they are afraid of the higher Power/Deity. 

And all the problems are originating from this fear. 

This fear is prohibiting them to look at issues "critically" and use the power of their own minds in order to differentiate between the right and the wrong. 

 

Muslims are told it is only the right of Allah to give the system and law (Sharia), and the duty of the human beings is only to obey it, without questioning, while Allah is the most Wise. 

 

 

 

Oh yes, so fear it is.

[Ranvir]

Fear is a major part of all religions. Even Indian religions like Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism, Jainism scare you with stories of being reincarnated as a lowly animal or disabled person.

 

The main difference is that parents in these religions do not brainwash their kids as much as muslims do and do not take their religions as seriously either.

[randomGuy]

4 hours ago, Ranvir said:

Fear is a major part of all religions. Even Indian religions like Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism, Jainism scare you with stories of being reincarnated as a lowly animal or disabled person.

 

The main difference is that parents in these religions do not brainwash their kids as much as muslims do and do not take their religions as seriously either.

Islam, a religion which must be thoroughly rejected by everyone, itself is cancer.... As is evident from what's happening in the world, also evident from Alam Dars references ....all other religions  except Islam peacefully coexist... 

[Alam_dar]

4 hours ago, Ranvir said:

Fear is a major part of all religions. Even Indian religions like Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism, Jainism scare you with stories of being reincarnated as a lowly animal or disabled person.

The main difference is that parents in these religions do not brainwash their kids as much as muslims do and do not take their religions as seriously either.

The system of creation of fear is "perfect" in Islam, as compared to others. 

Muslims invented the "Ilm-ul-Hadith" (the study of Hadith). This was the perfect TOOL for Muslims to declare any thing weak, which was exposing the reality of Islam, while declaring all things strong with went for their favour. 

And since Muslims were brainwashed in believing this Ilm-ul-Hadith to be approximately 100% perfect, therefore there was no space for doubting whole Islamic Sharia. 

While Judaism and Christianity were older and different, and there was much more space of doubts in them. They had nothing comparable to Ilm-ul-Hadith, as in Islam. 

 

If there had only been Quran there, then Islam would have been doomed for long. But it is this Hadith and Ilm-ul-Hadith, which is making Islam so much dangerous and fearable. 

 

[Alam_dar]

1 hour ago, randomGuy said:

Islam, a religion which must be thoroughly rejected by everyone, itself is cancer.... As is evident from what's happening in the world, also evident from Alam Dars references ....all other religions  except Islam peacefully coexist... 

Unfortunately, what is happening in the world, it showed almost Zero or very little effect on the thinking of Muslims. 

And these few articles that I have written, they are also not enough (not even for the moderate Muslims). 

And it also shows that "all" the anti-Islam books and materials, which is present on the net at moment, that is not enough, while it does not have the high quality and leaves many loopholes open for the Muslims to escape. 

 

I was myself a Muslim, and I know from my personal  experience that few articles here and there are not enough, but I needed the refutation of Islam on many fronts, and only after that I was able to finally leave Islam. It took me years to do so. Although it would have happened rather quickly if I had got a teacher earlier, while my teacher showed the very weakest points of Islam, which are unfortunately not targeted properly at moment. 

 

My teacher, and later I got excellent success in the debates in Urdu, while we targeted those weak points systematically, and left almost no loopholes for the Muslims to escape. I know exactly, this is the way to success. 

 

Alas, we were targeted, and now running for our lives, and the lives of our dear relatives. My teacher is in the prisons without any trail and facing tortures every day. 

 

And I am also risking my life by writing here. 

In fact I stopped writing and debating long time ago, while I could not face the power of agencies. 

 

I am only wasting myself now-a-days, and I don't like it, as I know I have the ability to serve the humanity.

 

I am a humble person, and never boast about myself. But again I have to say I could make a difference in this world even with my limited abilities. After imprisonment of my teacher, I don't see any one else who could carry on with this mission, except for me. 

 

But we need security to our life. 

 

Please, if possible, then find out the people who could support us and provide us the security, so that we could continue.