Priyanka Chopra gets flak for ‘Hindu terror’ plot in Quantico

[coffee_rules]

1 hour ago, Muloghonto said:

Google says you are wrong. Non Dalit Hindus have been killing Dalits for longer than Islam has existed 

How? 2 Leftist moron historians peer-reviewed the evidence and agreed to publish it and Google says it is the correct version of history?

Edited June 20, 2018 by coffee_rules

[Muloghonto]

1 hour ago, coffee_rules said:

How? 2 Leftist moron historians peer-reviewed the evidence and agreed to publish it and Google says it is the correct version of history?

As in I can find hundreds of incidents detailing non Dalit Hindus killing Dalits because of stuff Dalits are not supposed to do from news.

 

As for history, I don't need a leftist historian to tell me the evidence . Hindu scriptures and historic sources are enough .

[nikred]

As in I can find hundreds of incidents detailing non Dalit Hindus killing Dalits because of stuff Dalits are not supposed to do from news.
 
As for history, I don't need a leftist historian to tell me the evidence . Hindu scriptures and historic sources are enough .

Hindu scriptures advocate killing dalits? Or are you stating it is full of instances of dalit killings?

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk

[MechEng]

2 hours ago, nikred said:

 

 

Hindu scriptures advocate killing dalits? Or are you stating it is full of instances of dalit killings?

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk
 

 

This is what happens when you allow foreigners to write your own history.

[Muloghonto]

6 hours ago, MechEng said:

This is what happens when you allow foreigners to write your own history.

Yeah. They don't edit out the embarrassing parts

[coffee_rules]

That's exactly what happens when you read interpreted texts of outsiders.

[Moochad]

What's funny is that for the claims Ranga/Mulo has in this thread,he hasn't backed up...   Just ask for a source that backs up the claim that Hindus have murdered and raped dalits for 2000 years and Most Hindus don't consider dalits as Hindus.  Both are baseless bunkum. Unless this fellow can first provide that, there is no reason to go further. 

 

Even one of the most influential Hindu saints of the last several hundred years, Sant Ravidas was from the chamar jati, which is considered dalit. His own writing state how Brahmins from Banaras would bow before him. He was also the guru of Shivaji. 

Edited June 21, 2018 by Moochad

[Tibarn]

On Topic

Quantico Situation

A) ABC and PC both apologized. Whoever wanted them to already won that much. 

B) The show was already cancelled, and this is its last season anyway. 

C) Anyone with a problem with the outrage and apology should also have a problem, a greater one probably with this, where ABC cancelled an entire show because of a "racist" tweet by a lead actor

http://www.indiancricketfans.com/forums/topic/107853-abc-cancels-roseanne-after-stars-racist-twitter-rant/

 

The fact is that many Western countries already have laws on blasphemy/hate speech which are used to silence wrongthink, that the US is slowly degenerating to a place where "liberals" are pushing for hate speech laws and general support for absolute free speech is on the decline in the country:

 

The US will likely add hate speech laws within a few decades, in my opinion... This is just a sign of that I think.

 

D) Indian liberandus on twitter/online who were whinging about this ironically had no issue hounding other people online when they make statements not considered politically correct, such as that chef Atul Kochhar, who also doesn't even live in India.

E) Indian liberandus are the ones who passed/maintained the 1st amendment to the Indian constitution and IPC 295a; what possible locus standi could they have to lecture an American corporation on something as minimal as an apology?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Off topic stuff

Kochhar Fiasco

Spoiler

 

A) Atul Kochhar was only partly correct, I think in his tweet he mentioned 2000 years, which is an exaggeration, as they haven't even existed that long 

B) He said what he said and was hounded by liberandus on Indian twitter

C) He lost his job, likely in part because of the outrage reaching the higher ups at his hotel of employment

D) He lives in such a country where what he tweeted can get him jailed, so, if he does get jailed, one can primarily blame his own foolishness, not recognizing where he lives/works

E) Indians in general, and liberandus in particular, have no locus standi here either, as India is a country where a man, Kamlesh Tiwari, was arrested under the NSA, for calling the "prophet" a homosexual  

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ranga-Dalit Issue

Spoiler

A)The concept of a "Dalit caste" is itself murky, many consider Dalits and Shudras the same thing; for example "Dalits" often have the same Kuladevis as Shudras, ie my family's is Batrakali which is shared by many Dalits in Gujarat as well. Also read Ambedkar's own writings where he constantly uses the phrase Shudra to refer to both.  

B) There is no doubt discrimination against "Dalits" even today and was surely there in the past as well. That discrimination would have likely taken a violent turn many times for sure.

C) A significant proportion of the discrimination against Dalits are done by Shudras themselves, ie the Yadav-Dalit issues in  Bihar, "Dravidian"-Dalit issues in TN, Jatt-Dalit issues in UP. There is no doubt "upper castes" also engaged in discrimination.

D) The idea of a homogeneous Dalit "caste" itself is further misleading when one considers politics in places like UP where Dalit jatis like Jatavs and Pasis are basically rivals and discriminate against each other or Ambedkar's own Mahar caste which dominates other Dalit castes in Maharashtra 

E) There are Dalits in India even among Muslims, Christians, etc who also discriminate against these people (read Ambedkar's biography by Dhananjay Keer and one can see he was even discriminated against by Parsis).

F) Discrimination does not equal murder and rape, especially at a large scale comparable to what Islam does to all non-Muslims, forget just Hindus. A fantastic claim like Ranga's that Hindus have terrorized Dalits for 2000 years is monkey balancing at its finest. (A self-professed Jain man can murder a Homosexual, but that doesn't mean that it is part of Jainism to murder homosexuals.)

I) There is textual support in Islam to brutally attack non-believers; Dr. Bill Warner estimates 53% of the corpus of Islamic texts are dedicated toward talking about "what to do with" Kafirs.  

I) There is sparse, if any, credible evidence that suggests large scale rape and murder of Dalits, let alone Shudras, in history

J) There is also no significant evidence of "lower castes" ever engaging in armed revolt against "upper castes" in India, despite the fact that, according to historical records, India was one of the most highly armed societies before arms were specifically banned from common people in the last few hundred years(by Aurangzeb and then the British).

K) There is also no significant evidence of "lower castes" leaving Hinduism to embrace "egalitarian" religions like Islam (a legendary canard)

L) Dalits will have likely committed discriminaiton and violence against non-Dalits and other Dalits as well. The Jati-Varna system is more like a cascade of "jatis." As evidence of discrimination, anecdotally in Gujarat, Dalits call Tribals as "Jangali Janver" 

M) There is enough instances of Dalits and Shudras "moving up" the "caste system" ie Scindias, Gaekawds, Shivaji, Sant Ravidas, Maharaja Suheldev Pasi 

N) As a counter, there is also enough evidence that education wasn't denied to "Dalits" and "Shudras", read Dharmpal's book The Beautiful Tree where it is shown that "lower castes" were even the dominate groups in indigenous schools.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Random other things I saw in this thread

Spoiler

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/07/why-people-with-no-religion-are-projected-to-decline-as-a-share-of-the-worlds-population/

Why people with no religion are projected to decline as a share of the world’s population

Atheists are declining as a percentage of the global population. They are literally dying out.  

 

Spoiler

Aussies giving gyan to us evil injuns 

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Rape-rate

Australia Rape rate 28.6 per 100,000

India Rape rate 1.80 per 100,00

 

 

[Moochad]

5 hours ago, Tibarn said:

On Topic

Quantico Situation

A) ABC and PC both apologized. Whoever wanted them to already won that much. 

B) The show was already cancelled, and this is its last season anyway. 

C) Anyone with a problem with the outrage and apology should also have a problem, a greater one probably with this, where ABC cancelled an entire show because of a "racist" tweet by a lead actor

http://www.indiancricketfans.com/forums/topic/107853-abc-cancels-roseanne-after-stars-racist-twitter-rant/

 

The fact is that many Western countries already have laws on blasphemy/hate speech which are used to silence wrongthink, that the US is slowly degenerating to a place where "liberals" are pushing for hate speech laws and general support for absolute free speech is on the decline in the country:

 

The US will likely add hate speech laws within a few decades, in my opinion... This is just a sign of that I think.

 

D) Indian liberandus on twitter/online who were whinging about this ironically had no issue hounding other people online when they make statements not considered politically correct, such as that chef Atul Kochhar, who also doesn't even live in India.

E) Indian liberandus are the ones who passed/maintained the 1st amendment to the Indian constitution and IPC 295a; what possible locus standi could they have to lecture an American corporation on something as minimal as an apology?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Off topic stuff

Kochhar Fiasco

  Reveal hidden contents

 

A) Atul Kochhar was only partly correct, I think in his tweet he mentioned 2000 years, which is an exaggeration, as they haven't even existed that long 

B) He said what he said and was hounded by liberandus on Indian twitter

C) He lost his job, likely in part because of the outrage reaching the higher ups at his hotel of employment

D) He lives in such a country where what he tweeted can get him jailed, so, if he does get jailed, one can primarily blame his own foolishness, not recognizing where he lives/works

E) Indians in general, and liberandus in particular, have no locus standi here either, as India is a country where a man, Kamlesh Tiwari, was arrested under the NSA, for calling the "prophet" a homosexual  

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ranga-Dalit Issue

  Reveal hidden contents

A)The concept of a "Dalit caste" is itself murky, many consider Dalits and Shudras the same thing; for example "Dalits" often have the same Kuladevis as Shudras, ie my family's is Batrakali which is shared by many Dalits in Gujarat as well. Also read Ambedkar's own writings where he constantly uses the phrase Shudra to refer to both.  

B) There is no doubt discrimination against "Dalits" even today and was surely there in the past as well. That discrimination would have likely taken a violent turn many times for sure.

C) A significant proportion of the discrimination against Dalits are done by Shudras themselves, ie the Yadav-Dalit issues in  Bihar, "Dravidian"-Dalit issues in TN, Jatt-Dalit issues in UP. There is no doubt "upper castes" also engaged in discrimination.

D) The idea of a homogeneous Dalit "caste" itself is further misleading when one considers politics in places like UP where Dalit jatis like Jatavs and Pasis are basically rivals and discriminate against each other or Ambedkar's own Mahar caste which dominates other Dalit castes in Maharashtra 

E) There are Dalits in India even among Muslims, Christians, etc who also discriminate against these people (read Ambedkar's biography by Dhananjay Keer and one can see he was even discriminated against by Parsis).

F) Discrimination does not equal murder and rape, especially at a large scale comparable to what Islam does to all non-Muslims, forget just Hindus. A fantastic claim like Ranga's that Hindus have terrorized Dalits for 2000 years is monkey balancing at its finest. (A self-professed Jain man can murder a Homosexual, but that doesn't mean that it is part of Jainism to murder homosexuals.)

I) There is textual support in Islam to brutally attack non-believers; Dr. Bill Warner estimates 53% of the corpus of Islamic texts are dedicated toward talking about "what to do with" Kafirs.  

I) There is sparse, if any, credible evidence that suggests large scale rape and murder of Dalits, let alone Shudras, in history

J) There is also no significant evidence of "lower castes" ever engaging in armed revolt against "upper castes" in India, despite the fact that, according to historical records, India was one of the most highly armed societies before arms were specifically banned from common people in the last few hundred years(by Aurangzeb and then the British).

K) There is also no significant evidence of "lower castes" leaving Hinduism to embrace "egalitarian" religions like Islam (a legendary canard)

L) Dalits will have likely committed discriminaiton and violence against non-Dalits and other Dalits as well. The Jati-Varna system is more like a cascade of "jatis." As evidence of discrimination, anecdotally in Gujarat, Dalits call Tribals as "Jangali Janver" 

M) There is enough instances of Dalits and Shudras "moving up" the "caste system" ie Scindias, Gaekawds, Shivaji, Sant Ravidas, Maharaja Suheldev Pasi 

N) As a counter, there is also enough evidence that education wasn't denied to "Dalits" and "Shudras", read Dharmpal's book The Beautiful Tree where it is shown that "lower castes" were even the dominate groups in indigenous schools.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Random other things I saw in this thread

  Reveal hidden contents

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/07/why-people-with-no-religion-are-projected-to-decline-as-a-share-of-the-worlds-population/

Why people with no religion are projected to decline as a share of the world’s population

Atheists are declining as a percentage of the global population. They are literally dying out.  

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Aussies giving gyan to us evil injuns 

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Rape-rate

Australia Rape rate 28.6 per 100,000

India Rape rate 1.80 per 100,00

 

 

Thanks buddy for the informative post, it seems only White Males and Jewish people are free-speech absolutists in the US. I wonder why that is? I would think Asians who come from more totalitarian regimes like China would appreciate the right to speak freely more.

 

That foreign born percentage of 29.3% is astoundingly low, I also wonder if some of the Donald Trump backlash was because of this?  

[Alam_dar]

16 hours ago, Moochad said:

What's funny is that for the claims Ranga/Mulo has in this thread,he hasn't backed up...   Just ask for a source that backs up the claim that Hindus have murdered and raped dalits for 2000 years and Most Hindus don't consider dalits as Hindus.  Both are baseless bunkum. Unless this fellow can first provide that, there is no reason to go further. 

 

Even one of the most influential Hindu saints of the last several hundred years, Sant Ravidas was from the chamar jati, which is considered dalit. His own writing state how Brahmins from Banaras would bow before him. He was also the guru of Shivaji. 

You are quoting an Exceptional case of one person. 

While the reality is that millions of others indeed suffered. 
 

You say that Brahmins considered Dalits as Hindu too.

But sad and brutal reality is this that they didn't considered Dalits as Human Beings. 

So, hindu or no hindu, what difference is it going to make when they were not even Human Beings for upper caste Hindus? 

 

You say they were considered Hindu. But were they allowed to enter the Mandirs? Or Mandirs became filthy due to their presence?

 

You say they were considered Hindu. But were they allowed to touch and read the holy Hindu Books? Or were they beaten for entering the Mandirs and touching and reading the holy books? 

 

===

 

Slavery was evil. 

But Dalits suffered even more than the slaves. 

 

Even in the Islamic Slavery (which is in itself worse kind of ZULM upon the humanity), human beings were not so much humiliated and not treated as badly as in the Hindu Caste System. 

 

Sorry if you feel uncomfortable from my honest opinion. For me Humanity is sacred and it is above all Allah or God or Vishnu etc. 
 

 

 

 

 

[nikred]

You are quoting an Exceptional case of one person. 
While the reality is that millions of others indeed suffered. 
 
You say that Brahmins considered Dalits as Hindu too.
But sad and brutal reality is this that they didn't considered Dalits as Human Beings. 
So, hindu or no hindu, what difference is it going to make when they were not even Human Beings for upper caste Hindus? 
 
You say they were considered Hindu. But were they allowed to enter the Mandirs? Or Mandirs became filthy due to their presence?
 
You say they were considered Hindu. But were they allowed to touch and read the holy Hindu Books? Or were they beaten for entering the Mandirs and touching and reading the holy books? 
 
===
 
Slavery was evil. 
But Dalits suffered even more than the slaves. 
 
Even in the Islamic Slavery (which is in itself worse kind of ZULM upon the humanity), human beings were not so much humiliated and not treated as badly as in the Hindu Caste System. 
 
Sorry if you feel uncomfortable from my honest opinion. For me Humanity is sacred and it is above all Allah or God or Vishnu etc. 
 
 
 
 
 

"They didn't consider dalits as human beings". "Dalits suffered more than slaves".

Those are bold statements. Wonder if you could back them up. But then again you say they are your opinions. So I guess that's what they are, your opinions.

You seem to know a lot about the history of dalits. So you can definitely provide some evidence that hindu scriptures advocated killing dalits, right?


Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk

[Alam_dar]

2 hours ago, nikred said:

"They didn't consider dalits as human beings". "Dalits suffered more than slaves".

Those are bold statements. Wonder if you could back them up. But then again you say they are your opinions. So I guess that's what they are, your opinions.

You seem to know a lot about the history of dalits. So you can definitely provide some evidence that hindu scriptures advocated killing dalits, right?

 

 

I asked you simple questions, like:

 

1. Were Dallits allowed to enter the Mandir? Even the Muslims slaves were allowed to enter the mosque and even to lead the prayer. They were standing side by side with other Free Muslims in the mosque. 
Same is true for the slavery in Christianity and Judaism. 
 

2. Were Dallits allowed to touch the holy books and read them? 
You again didn't answer it. 

Again slaves were not only allowed to touch and read the holy books, but they were even allowed to lead the prayers. 

 

3. Slaves were set free constantly. Or they were able to make a contract and buy themselves freedom. Afterwards, they got the equal rights as normal free person. 
But in India caste system, Dalits got no such opportunity to get rid of this humility. 

 

Now I once again ask you to tell us how then Dalits not suffered more than the slaves, when they were considered ETERNAL filthy and creation which should be humiliated? 

 

Slavery and Caste system is like bad and worse. And both Muslims and Hindus are culprits here. 

 

4. And I didn't say that Dalits were killed. 

 

For for their humiliation, only this one word of "Untouchable" is enough (if you really have some humanity in you). 

 

 

[Moochad]

4 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

You are quoting an Exceptional case of one person. 

While the reality is that millions of others indeed suffered. 

Source?

 

4 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

You say that Brahmins considered Dalits as Hindu too.

But sad and brutal reality is this that they didn't considered Dalits as Human Beings. 

Source?

4 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

So, hindu or no hindu, what difference is it going to make when they were not even Human Beings for upper caste Hindus?

Source?

 

4 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

You say they were considered Hindu. But were they allowed to enter the Mandirs? Or Mandirs became filthy due to their presence?

Source that no Dalit was even allowed in any Mandir over the 5-8000 year history of Hinduism?

 

4 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

You say they were considered Hindu. But were they allowed to touch and read the holy Hindu Books? Or were they beaten for entering the Mandirs and touching and reading the holy books? 

Source that no "Dalits" were ever allowed to read/touch holy books and all were beaten for entering Mandirs/reading the holy books over the 5-8000 year history of Hindusim

 

Don't waste my time with your nonsense propaganda. Provide evidence.

[Tibarn]

10 hours ago, Moochad said:

Thanks buddy for the informative post, it seems only White Males and Jewish people are free-speech absolutists in the US. I wonder why that is? I would think Asians who come from more totalitarian regimes like China would appreciate the right to speak freely more.

 

That foreign born percentage of 29.3% is astoundingly low, I also wonder if some of the Donald Trump backlash was because of this?  

I can only say this from my anecdotal perspective, but at the university I work at currently in the states, many of the Drumpf fans are those people who feel like "PC culture" is infringing on their "free expression" in areas like the internet and video games, but this demographic is the 18-22 year old crowd. 

 

For the most part, it seems, in my opinion, that three factors brought Drumpf upon the world: economic disenfranchisement of the white working class; a reactionary development of white identity politics in response to black/asian/hispanic identity politics in the US; and Hillary herself being one of the worst Democratic candidates in recent memory(Bernie Sanders wasn't much better)

 

"Free speech" is just a minor issue to most people, not something people will vote/not-vote over in my opinion. In India itself, the people who claim to be concerned with it are the same people who effectively banned it in the first place, yet they face no significant electoral backlash in response. There is no reason to assume anything different would happen in the US or the rest of the Western countries. 

[Moochad]

48 minutes ago, Tibarn said:

For the most part, it seems, in my opinion, that three factors brought Drumpf upon the world: economic disenfranchisement of the white working class; a reactionary development of white identity politics in response to black/asian/hispanic identity politics in the US; and Hillary herself being one of the worst Democratic candidates in recent memory(Bernie Sanders wasn't much better)

I disagree here, Bernie was much worse than Hillary. Bernie was a self-proclaimed Socialist, which is a disastrous economic policy for any country. Hillary at least was not that.   

[Alam_dar]

1 hour ago, Moochad said:

Source?

 

Source?

Source?

 

Source that no Dalit was even allowed in any Mandir over the 5-8000 year history of Hinduism?

 

Brother, your problem is this that you don't want Justice, but you want to defend Hindu practices in every possible way. 

 

You want to seek refuge in ancient religious texts, and therefore you inserting the argument of 5-8000 years of history, while neglecting all the practices of upper caste Hindus in the last 2400 years, after the introduction of this caste system. 

 

The old vedas and religious books are vague and they offer nothing to the modern Human Being. They were not even good enough to stop the introduction of this evil caste system. 

 

Google and read how even today Brahmins prohibit the entrance of Dalits in the temples. But you want to caste doubts about this reality of last 2400 years by bringing the discussion of ancient Hindu Texts. 

 

You want a source, then just look the hatred in the hearts of upper caste Hindus when they talk about Dalits even today. 

 

===

I am no good in Hindu holy texts. But I judge the Hinduism from the practices of upper caste Hindus today, which are proof enough for me for their corruption and anti-human behaviour, just as slavery. 

 

Nevertheless, it seems that texts also exist for these practices.

 

 

http://www.trinicenter.com/more/India/invasionsandracism.htm

 

Apartheid Varna System and Other Caste Systems

 

 

Sudroids Seen as Animals

The Sudroid blacks are repeatedly referred to as 'animals', & never treated as humans in the Hindu scriptures.

" Having killed a cat, an ichneumon, a blue jay, a frog, a dog, an iguana, an owl, or a corw, he shall perform the penance for the murder of a Sudra."
-- [ Manu IX.132 ]

 

" 'You may breed cows and dogs in your house,' wrote Mr. M.C. Raja. 'You may drink the urine of cows and swallow cowdung to expiate your sins, but you shall not approach an Adi Dravida"
-- [ Inf ]

 

" The murder of a Sudra by a Brahman is equal only to killing a cat or a frog or a cow "
[ Stat ] [ Wilk.248 ].

 

Whereas Brahmans are classed with gods, Sudras are classed with animals:

 

" Elephants, horses, Sudras and contemptiable Mlecchas, lions, tigers, and boars form the middle dark condition"
-- [ Manu i.43 ] [ Muir I.41 ]

 

The Sudra Black is also not allowed to participate in any rites of the Aryan Vaishnavite religion : " A Brahman should never be the guru of a Sudra. 'While the first part of a Brahman's name should indicate holiness that of a Kshatriya's power and that of a Vashya's wealth, that of a Sudra 's should indicate contempt. The Veda is never to be read in the presence of a Sudra, and for him no sacrifice is to be performed. He has no business with solemn rites." [ Stat ] [ Wilk.247-8 ].

 

Later, Vaisyas were degraded to the status of Sudras : " Vish [ Vaisya ] is food for the kshatriya" [ Sat.Br.3.3.2.8; Vedic Cosmology, Rajiv Verma, New Age International Ltd. New Delhi, 1996, p.110 ]

 

 

Enforced Illiteracy

To eonforce their domination over the subjugated races, all these and especially the negroid Sudras, were forcibly kept in illiteracy. This maintained the Brahmin state.

 

Sudra Blacks are not allowed to even read the Vedas, and are punished by having their tongue cut out if they do so. If they hear the Vedas, they are to have molten tin poured into their ears. The Vedas are meant to be read only by Aryans :

 

" A Sudra has no right even to listen to the Veda. Recitation of or listening to this sacred book is exclusively a privilege of the Aryan Hindus. There is provision of severe punishment for a Sudra, in case he dares to enjoy this privilege. If he "overheard a recitation of the Vedas, molten lac or tin was to be poured into his mouth; if he repeated recitation of the Vedas, his tongue should be cut; and if he remembered Vedic hymns, his body was to be torn into pieces."
-- [ Tirth ]; cited in [ Stat ]

 

That this rule was actually enforced is proven by the account of Alberuni, who visited India in the 10th century AD :

 

" The Vaisya and the Sudra are not allowed to hear it [ the Veda ], much less to pronounce and recite it. If such a thing can be proved against one of them, the Brahmans drag him before the magistrate, and he is punished by having his tongue cut off ."
-- [ al-B.i.125 Ch.XII ]

 

and again,

 

" Every act that is considered the privelege of the Brahman, such as saying prayers, the reciting of the Veda, and offering of sacfirices to the fire, is forbidden to him, to such a degree that when, eg. a Sudra or a Vaisya is proved to have recited the Veda, he is accused by the Brahmans before the ruler, and the latter will order his tongue to be cut off . However, the meditation on God [ is not prohibited ]."
-- [ al-B.ii.127 Ch.LXIV ]

 

Hence, the caste system did not decrease in severity right from the Aryan invasion in 1500 BC upto the Islamic conquest ca. 1000 AD. That implies a 2500 year period during which the apartheid caste system was in operation - longer than anywhere else in the world.

 

Some scholars have claimed that the laws of Manu were not necessarily followed in practice. This is merely Brahmanic-Aryan propaganda, since the account of Alberuni quoted above shows that the law was enforced in all its severity. In addition, the accounts of countless Greek and Arab travellers prove that the caste system was enforced during the medieval period, and the account of European travellers, especially English ones, proves that it was in force in South India till the British conquest. Thus, an Aryan Nair would shoot a Dravidian at sight. However, the Islamic invasion relaxed caste systems to a great degree, when the liberal Quranic law substituted the harsh Vedic laws.

 

For contesting the claims of the pretentious fair-skinned Aryans, the black Sudra is to have his tongue cut off, hot oil poured in his ear, or a nail thrust into his mouth :

 

·         " A once-born man (Sudra) who insults a twice-born man (Aryan) with gross invective, shall have his tongue cut out; for he is of low origin."
-- [ Manu VIII.270 ]

 

·         " If he mentions the names and castes (Jati) of the (twice-born) with contumely, an iron nail, 10 fingers long, shall be thrust red-hot into his mouth ."
-- [ Manu VIII.271 ]

 

·         " If he arrogantly teaches Brahmins their duty, the king shall cause hot oil to be poured into his mouth and into his ears . "
-- [ Manu VIII.272 ]

 

And again,

"Rites are declared to be prescribed by the Vedas for the three (highest) castes... Next the Sudras, produced from extinction, are destitute of rites. Hence they are not entitled to be admitted to the purificatory ceremonies, nor does sacred science belong to them. Just as the cloud of smoke which rises from the fire on the friction of the fule, and is dissipated, is of no service in the sacrficial rite, so too the Shudras wandering over the Earth, are altogether (Useless for purpose of sacrifice) owing to their birth , their mode of life devoid of purity and their want of observances prescribed in the Veda."
-- [ Muir I. 153 ] [ Hari.11820 ]

 

" With whatever limb a man of a low caste does hurt to (a man of the three highest castes) even that limb shall be cut off ; that is the teaching of Manu.
He who raises his hand or a stick, shall have his hand cut off ; he who in his anger kicks with his foot, shall have his foot cut off ."
-- [ Manu VIII.279-280 ]

 

" If a low-caste man who tries to place himself on the same seat with a man of a high caste, shall be branded on his hip and is banished, or (the king) shall cause his buttock to be gashed."
-- [ Manu VIII.281 ]

 

" If out of arrogance he [ a Sudra ] spits (on a superior), the king shall cause both his lips to be cut off; if he urines (on him), the penis; if he breaks wind (against him), the anus."
-- [ Manu VIII.282 ]

 

" If ha lays fold of the hair(of a superior), let the king unhesitatingly cut off his hands , likewise (if he takes him) by the feet, the breard, the neck or the scrotum."
-- [ Manu VIII.282 ]

 

After Parasurama annihilated the Kshatry race,

" the Brahmans did not sell their sacred lore, nor recite the Vedas in the vicinity of Sudras"
-- [ Muir.I.452 ] [ MBh.Adi.2474 ]

 

 

 

[dial_100]

1 hour ago, Alam_dar said:

 

Brother, your problem is this that you don't want Justice, but you want to defend Hindu practices in every possible way. 

 

You want to seek refuge in ancient religious texts, and therefore you inserting the argument of 5-8000 years of history, while neglecting all the practices of upper caste Hindus in the last 2400 years, after the introduction of this caste system. 

 

The old vedas and religious books are vague and they offer nothing to the modern Human Being. They were not even good enough to stop the introduction of this evil caste system. 

 

Google and read how even today Brahmins prohibit the entrance of Dalits in the temples. But you want to caste doubts about this reality of last 2400 years by bringing the discussion of ancient Hindu Texts. 

 

You want a source, then just look the hatred in the hearts of upper caste Hindus when they talk about Dalits even today. 

 

===

I am no good in Hindu holy texts. But I judge the Hinduism from the practices of upper caste Hindus today, which are proof enough for me for their corruption and anti-human behaviour, just as slavery. 

 

Nevertheless, it seems that texts also exist for these practices.

 

 

http://www.trinicenter.com/more/India/invasionsandracism.htm

 

Apartheid Varna System and Other Caste Systems

 

 

Sudroids Seen as Animals

The Sudroid blacks are repeatedly referred to as 'animals', & never treated as humans in the Hindu scriptures.

" Having killed a cat, an ichneumon, a blue jay, a frog, a dog, an iguana, an owl, or a corw, he shall perform the penance for the murder of a Sudra."
-- [ Manu IX.132 ]

 

" 'You may breed cows and dogs in your house,' wrote Mr. M.C. Raja. 'You may drink the urine of cows and swallow cowdung to expiate your sins, but you shall not approach an Adi Dravida"
-- [ Inf ]

 

" The murder of a Sudra by a Brahman is equal only to killing a cat or a frog or a cow "
[ Stat ] [ Wilk.248 ].

 

Whereas Brahmans are classed with gods, Sudras are classed with animals:

 

" Elephants, horses, Sudras and contemptiable Mlecchas, lions, tigers, and boars form the middle dark condition"
-- [ Manu i.43 ] [ Muir I.41 ]

 

The Sudra Black is also not allowed to participate in any rites of the Aryan Vaishnavite religion : " A Brahman should never be the guru of a Sudra. 'While the first part of a Brahman's name should indicate holiness that of a Kshatriya's power and that of a Vashya's wealth, that of a Sudra 's should indicate contempt. The Veda is never to be read in the presence of a Sudra, and for him no sacrifice is to be performed. He has no business with solemn rites." [ Stat ] [ Wilk.247-8 ].

 

Later, Vaisyas were degraded to the status of Sudras : " Vish [ Vaisya ] is food for the kshatriya" [ Sat.Br.3.3.2.8; Vedic Cosmology, Rajiv Verma, New Age International Ltd. New Delhi, 1996, p.110 ]

 

 

Enforced Illiteracy

To eonforce their domination over the subjugated races, all these and especially the negroid Sudras, were forcibly kept in illiteracy. This maintained the Brahmin state.

 

Sudra Blacks are not allowed to even read the Vedas, and are punished by having their tongue cut out if they do so. If they hear the Vedas, they are to have molten tin poured into their ears. The Vedas are meant to be read only by Aryans :

 

" A Sudra has no right even to listen to the Veda. Recitation of or listening to this sacred book is exclusively a privilege of the Aryan Hindus. There is provision of severe punishment for a Sudra, in case he dares to enjoy this privilege. If he "overheard a recitation of the Vedas, molten lac or tin was to be poured into his mouth; if he repeated recitation of the Vedas, his tongue should be cut; and if he remembered Vedic hymns, his body was to be torn into pieces."
-- [ Tirth ]; cited in [ Stat ]

 

That this rule was actually enforced is proven by the account of Alberuni, who visited India in the 10th century AD :

 

" The Vaisya and the Sudra are not allowed to hear it [ the Veda ], much less to pronounce and recite it. If such a thing can be proved against one of them, the Brahmans drag him before the magistrate, and he is punished by having his tongue cut off ."
-- [ al-B.i.125 Ch.XII ]

 

and again,

 

" Every act that is considered the privelege of the Brahman, such as saying prayers, the reciting of the Veda, and offering of sacfirices to the fire, is forbidden to him, to such a degree that when, eg. a Sudra or a Vaisya is proved to have recited the Veda, he is accused by the Brahmans before the ruler, and the latter will order his tongue to be cut off . However, the meditation on God [ is not prohibited ]."
-- [ al-B.ii.127 Ch.LXIV ]

 

Hence, the caste system did not decrease in severity right from the Aryan invasion in 1500 BC upto the Islamic conquest ca. 1000 AD. That implies a 2500 year period during which the apartheid caste system was in operation - longer than anywhere else in the world.

 

Some scholars have claimed that the laws of Manu were not necessarily followed in practice. This is merely Brahmanic-Aryan propaganda, since the account of Alberuni quoted above shows that the law was enforced in all its severity. In addition, the accounts of countless Greek and Arab travellers prove that the caste system was enforced during the medieval period, and the account of European travellers, especially English ones, proves that it was in force in South India till the British conquest. Thus, an Aryan Nair would shoot a Dravidian at sight. However, the Islamic invasion relaxed caste systems to a great degree, when the liberal Quranic law substituted the harsh Vedic laws.

 

For contesting the claims of the pretentious fair-skinned Aryans, the black Sudra is to have his tongue cut off, hot oil poured in his ear, or a nail thrust into his mouth :

 

·         " A once-born man (Sudra) who insults a twice-born man (Aryan) with gross invective, shall have his tongue cut out; for he is of low origin."
-- [ Manu VIII.270 ]

 

·         " If he mentions the names and castes (Jati) of the (twice-born) with contumely, an iron nail, 10 fingers long, shall be thrust red-hot into his mouth ."
-- [ Manu VIII.271 ]

 

·         " If he arrogantly teaches Brahmins their duty, the king shall cause hot oil to be poured into his mouth and into his ears . "
-- [ Manu VIII.272 ]

 

And again,

"Rites are declared to be prescribed by the Vedas for the three (highest) castes... Next the Sudras, produced from extinction, are destitute of rites. Hence they are not entitled to be admitted to the purificatory ceremonies, nor does sacred science belong to them. Just as the cloud of smoke which rises from the fire on the friction of the fule, and is dissipated, is of no service in the sacrficial rite, so too the Shudras wandering over the Earth, are altogether (Useless for purpose of sacrifice) owing to their birth , their mode of life devoid of purity and their want of observances prescribed in the Veda."
-- [ Muir I. 153 ] [ Hari.11820 ]

 

" With whatever limb a man of a low caste does hurt to (a man of the three highest castes) even that limb shall be cut off ; that is the teaching of Manu.
He who raises his hand or a stick, shall have his hand cut off ; he who in his anger kicks with his foot, shall have his foot cut off ."
-- [ Manu VIII.279-280 ]

 

" If a low-caste man who tries to place himself on the same seat with a man of a high caste, shall be branded on his hip and is banished, or (the king) shall cause his buttock to be gashed."
-- [ Manu VIII.281 ]

 

" If out of arrogance he [ a Sudra ] spits (on a superior), the king shall cause both his lips to be cut off; if he urines (on him), the penis; if he breaks wind (against him), the anus."
-- [ Manu VIII.282 ]

 

" If ha lays fold of the hair(of a superior), let the king unhesitatingly cut off his hands , likewise (if he takes him) by the feet, the breard, the neck or the scrotum."
-- [ Manu VIII.282 ]

 

After Parasurama annihilated the Kshatry race,

" the Brahmans did not sell their sacred lore, nor recite the Vedas in the vicinity of Sudras"
-- [ Muir.I.452 ] [ MBh.Adi.2474 ]

 

Even though I dont label myself as hindu, from whatever limited I know and I learnt, the religion absolutely is NOT "a religion of books". Who cares what is written in manusmriti. I dont accept a word of it. Our constitution gives equal rights to everyone, I personally can eat the food cooked by a person who others think as shudra, i can share the same food, i can sleep in teh same room, i can do my meditation with the person in the room, i can wash a feet of kid under 6 just like i would of any other small kid.

No difference. This is not same as "you know what". You would think but this is not a Pakistan. This is India and it is different. These text book mean zilch and nobody heeds to these scripts.

[Moochad]

1 hour ago, Alam_dar said:

Brother, your problem is this that you don't want Justice, but you want to defend Hindu practices in every possible way. 

The old vedas and religious books are vague and they offer nothing to the modern Human Being. They were not even good enough to stop the introduction of this evil caste system. 

Google and read how even today Brahmins prohibit the entrance of Dalits in the temples. But you want to caste doubts about this reality of last 2400 years by bringing the discussion of ancient Hindu Texts. 

Don't deflect from your inability to provide evidence for your/their fantastic claims by trying to psychoanalyze me, I have enough experience in psychiatry myself, and I can do it to you as well:

You want to seek refuge in your own flawed understanding of Hinduism and humanity assuming you have discovered some unique truth that no one else already has considered. This derives from your own insecure position in your own society with who you consider to be the dominant powers of it, which you are projecting onto people you neither have any experience with nor know to any significant level, displaying a lazy thinking of seeing patterns where they don't exist and creating false stereotypes to make yourself appear intellectual. See, there is a psychoanalysis of you,

 

now stop with the personal comments and provide sources for your claims

 

I haven't neglected anything, I asked for proof of everything you claimed, which you have neglected...  

 

You created a strawman argument implying that I  said there was no discrimination of dalits, when no one has said that, its obvious there has been discrimination, but apparently you don't understand that rape, murder, etc aren't the same thing as discrimination, 

 

Vedas aren't judged by what a Pakistani atheist deems valuable or not valuable, your opinions are yours to have, but don't matter in any quantifiable manner to Hindus...I can say your atheism is so weak that it is dying out globally and produced a number of the biggest mass murders in the history of humanity including Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot;

 

don't deflect from providing evidence for your claims

 

You ask me to google, providing nothing but anecdotal evidence for something no one contested, that there was/is discrimination against dalits

 

Here is another anecdote

http://zeenews.india.com/news/gujarat/narendra-modi-govt-for-dalits-as-priests_830975.html

Gujarat government promotes dalit priests 

 

There are lower castes who have hatred and say/do bigoted, hateful things to upper castes

Read about the Dravidian movement and there hatred for Brahmins and anti-Brahmin violence in Tamil Nadu or the politicians Kanshi Ram/Mayawati in Uttar Pradesh also read @Tibarn post on dalit issue

1 hour ago, Alam_dar said:

I am no good in Hindu holy texts. But I judge the Hinduism from the practices of upper caste Hindus today, which are proof enough for me for their corruption and anti-human behaviour, just as slavery. 

 

Nevertheless, it seems that texts also exist for these practices.

 

 

http://www.trinicenter.com/more/India/invasionsandracism.htm

So you admit you know little of Hindu "holy texts", yet you feel the need to lecture others acting as if we don't read our own texts? Or, are you so uninformed on Hinduism to think that it is a text based religion?  

 

Related to the website you linked to claims that Aryans invaded India (disproven), and that the "caste system" is racial in origin calling shudras as shudroids and claiming they were black ie Africans.  It is basically a Dravidianist propaganda piece or related to the Afro-Dalit movement in the West. 

 

There is zero evidence of any Aryan invasion into India or that "shudras" are different racial origin than "upper castes" and none whatsoever that they were "black" ie African, which is what that propaganda piece you provided claims, but that is off topic

 

Quote

" 'You may breed cows and dogs in your house,' wrote Mr. M.C. Raja. 'You may drink the urine of cows and swallow cowdung to expiate your sins, but you shall not approach an Adi Dravida"
-- [ Inf ]

MC Raja was a Dravidian propagandist, this isn't a reference to a text, this is his own opinion, and you are passing that off...  

 

Quote

The Sudra Black is also not allowed to participate in any rites of the Aryan Vaishnavite religion : " A Brahman should never be the guru of a Sudra. 'While the first part of a Brahman's name should indicate holiness that of a Kshatriya's power and that of a Vashya's wealth, that of a Sudra 's should indicate contempt. The Veda is never to be read in the presence of a Sudra, and for him no sacrifice is to be performed. He has no business with solemn rites." [ Stat ] [ Wilk.247-8 ].

To eonforce their domination over the subjugated races, all these and especially the negroid Sudras, were forcibly kept in illiteracy. This maintained the Brahmin state.

 

Sudra Blacks are not allowed to even read the Vedas, and are punished by having their tongue cut out if they do so. If they hear the Vedas, they are to have molten tin poured into their ears. The Vedas are meant to be read only by Aryans :

 

" A Sudra has no right even to listen to the Veda. Recitation of or listening to this sacred book is exclusively a privilege of the Aryan Hindus. There is provision of severe punishment for a Sudra, in case he dares to enjoy this privilege. If he "overheard a recitation of the Vedas, molten lac or tin was to be poured into his mouth; if he repeated recitation of the Vedas, his tongue should be cut; and if he remembered Vedic hymns, his body was to be torn into pieces."
-- [ Tirth ]; cited in [ Stat ]

That this rule was actually enforced is proven by the account of Alberuni, who visited India in the 10th century AD :

 

" The Vaisya and the Sudra are not allowed to hear it [ the Veda ], much less to pronounce and recite it. If such a thing can be proved against one of them, the Brahmans drag him before the magistrate, and he is punished by having his tongue cut off ."
-- [ al-B.i.125 Ch.XII ]

" Every act that is considered the privelege of the Brahman, such as saying prayers, the reciting of the Veda, and offering of sacfirices to the fire, is forbidden to him, to such a degree that when, eg. a Sudra or a Vaisya is proved to have recited the Veda, he is accused by the Brahmans before the ruler, and the latter will order his tongue to be cut off . However, the meditation on God [ is not prohibited ]."
-- [ al-B.ii.127 Ch.LXIV ]

" The murder of a Sudra by a Brahman is equal only to killing a cat or a frog or a cow "
[ Stat ] [ Wilk.248 ].

Hence, the caste system did not decrease in severity right from the Aryan invasion in 1500 BC upto the Islamic conquest ca. 1000 AD. That implies a 2500 year period during which the apartheid caste system was in operation - longer than anywhere else in the world.

After Parasurama annihilated the Kshatry race,

" the Brahmans did not sell their sacred lore, nor recite the Vedas in the vicinity of Sudras"
-- [ Muir.I.452 ] [ MBh.Adi.2474 ]

And again,

"Rites are declared to be prescribed by the Vedas for the three (highest) castes... Next the Sudras, produced from extinction, are destitute of rites. Hence they are not entitled to be admitted to the purificatory ceremonies, nor does sacred science belong to them. Just as the cloud of smoke which rises from the fire on the friction of the fule, and is dissipated, is of no service in the sacrficial rite, so too the Shudras wandering over the Earth, are altogether (Useless for purpose of sacrifice) owing to their birth , their mode of life devoid of purity and their want of observances prescribed in the Veda."
-- [ Muir I. 153 ] [ Hari.11820 ]

Some scholars have claimed that the laws of Manu were not necessarily followed in practice. This is merely Brahmanic-Aryan propaganda, since the account of Alberuni quoted above shows that the law was enforced in all its severity. In addition, the accounts of countless Greek and Arab travellers prove that the caste system was enforced during the medieval period, and the account of European travellers, especially English ones, proves that it was in force in South India till the British conquest. Thus, an Aryan Nair would shoot a Dravidian at sight. However, the Islamic invasion relaxed caste systems to a great degree, when the liberal Quranic law substituted the harsh Vedic laws.

 

For contesting the claims of the pretentious fair-skinned Aryans, the black Sudra is to have his tongue cut off, hot oil poured in his ear, or a nail thrust into his mouth :

Where exactly are these quotes taken from? They can be disregarded unless they actually from a specific source.

 

The bolded is disproven itself by the fact that Yagnas/sacrifices related to Satyanarayan Katha , are done by Shudras by themselves at their homes even today without "upper castes"

 

Another unsourced statement, which also contradicts your own claims. Gau-hatya, killing of cows, is one of the prime sins in Hinduism, they are referred to as Aghnya.  Even death penalty has been used for Gau-hatya. So you just posted something that killing Sudras is one of the greatest crimes in Hinduism and can lead to death penalty... 

1 hour ago, Alam_dar said:

Sudroids Seen as Animals

The Sudroid blacks are repeatedly referred to as 'animals', & never treated as humans in the Hindu scriptures.

" Having killed a cat, an ichneumon, a blue jay, a frog, a dog, an iguana, an owl, or a corw, he shall perform the penance for the murder of a Sudra."
-- [ Manu IX.132 ]

 

hereas Brahmans are classed with gods, Sudras are classed with animals:

 

" Elephants, horses, Sudras and contemptiable Mlecchas, lions, tigers, and boars form the middle dark condition"
-- [ Manu i.43 ] [ Muir I.41 ]  

 

Later, Vaisyas were degraded to the status of Sudras : " Vish [ Vaisya ] is food for the kshatriya" [ Sat.Br.3.3.2.8; Vedic Cosmology, Rajiv Verma, New Age International Ltd. New Delhi, 1996, p.110 ]

As expected, out of context snippets from the Manu smriti, laced with Dravidian nonsense of Shudras being Black...

 

1 of the references literally states that penance will be done for the murder of a Shudra. 

 

0 reference here where Brahmins are considered gods, just the opinion of a Dravidianist passed off as a fact. 

 

And then the last one claims that Vaisya are food for Kshatriya, so it is your contention that Kshatriya literally ate Vaisyas 

3 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

Enforced Illiteracy

and again,

         " A once-born man (Sudra) who insults a twice-born man (Aryan) with gross invective, shall have his tongue cut out; for he is of low origin."
-- [ Manu VIII.270 ]

 

·         " If he mentions the names and castes (Jati) of the (twice-born) with contumely, an iron nail, 10 fingers long, shall be thrust red-hot into his mouth ."
-- [ Manu VIII.271 ]

 

·         " If he arrogantly teaches Brahmins their duty, the king shall cause hot oil to be poured into his mouth and into his ears . "
-- [ Manu VIII.272 ]

 

" With whatever limb a man of a low caste does hurt to (a man of the three highest castes) even that limb shall be cut off ; that is the teaching of Manu.
He who raises his hand or a stick, shall have his hand cut off ; he who in his anger kicks with his foot, shall have his foot cut off ."
-- [ Manu VIII.279-280 ]

 

" If a low-caste man who tries to place himself on the same seat with a man of a high caste, shall be branded on his hip and is banished, or (the king) shall cause his buttock to be gashed."
-- [ Manu VIII.281 ]

 

" If out of arrogance he [ a Sudra ] spits (on a superior), the king shall cause both his lips to be cut off; if he urines (on him), the penis; if he breaks wind (against him), the anus."
-- [ Manu VIII.282 ]

 

" If ha lays fold of the hair(of a superior), let the king unhesitatingly cut off his hands , likewise (if he takes him) by the feet, the breard, the neck or the scrotum."
-- [ Manu VIII.282 ]

 

All this of Shudras being denied education was disproven earlier in this thread itself by @Tibarn in his earlier post where he references a book the Beautiful Tree which quotes the British who themselves observed schools were filled with Shudras, etc

The idea that Shudras were discriminated against as propagated by you is disproven by the evidence from ancient and medieval India where numerous Shudra dynasties were formed, including the Mauryas, Marathas, Reddys, and Jats

 

The handful of the statements which actually denote violence, are part of a penal code regarding what are considered punishable offenses according to what 1 smriti says , not justification/evidence of random/proactive raping and murdering which is what you claimed... 

 

And still none of that backs up your claim that Hindus have murdered and raped Dalits for 2000 years.

 

Your entire post mentions Shudras which are considered a distinct group from Dalits by most. Shudras are the majority of the Hindu populace, >60% of the entire population, including all the dominant castes of India such as Marathas, Jats, Yadavs, Gujjars, Patels.

 

I wasted my time reading all that and you still haven't given a specific reference which supports your claim that Dalits were murdered and raped by Hindus for 2000 years. 

 

[Tibarn]

17 minutes ago, Moochad said:

I wasted my time reading all that and you still haven't given a specific reference which supports your claim that Dalits were murdered and raped by Hindus for 2000 years. 

Friendly advice, do yourself a favor, and read the entire post at once instead of replying one by one to each statement, 

 

you yourself posted this

On 6/21/2018 at 12:28 PM, Moochad said:

Both are baseless bunkum. Unless this fellow can first provide that, there is no reason to go further.

regarding what Ranga said, so why waste time with a padosi who literally posted some BS from some Afro-Dalit movement propaganda page? 

 

 

 

 

[Tibarn]

5 hours ago, Moochad said:

I disagree here, Bernie was much worse than Hillary. Bernie was a self-proclaimed Socialist, which is a disastrous economic policy for any country. Hillary at least was not that.   

I wasn't clear, as I meant that purely as a candidate for election, Hilary was worse, as she has so much baggage over the years of her involvement in politics...

 

Hillary would've been a much better president than Bernie in my view.