Whom to blame?

[mishra]

18 hours ago, Chandan said:

I think the most to be blamed is the team management. When SA series had concluded, they had listed the problems India had gone through and which had prevented them from winning a series they could and should have won. Also after realising those mistakes they had promised that they would plan accordingly for England tour which was 6 months away. What do the captain and coach do?

 

1.grind the main weapon Bhuvi to dust before the tour instead of resting him from IPL.

2.No identification of openers and number 3 and repeating the same mistake they did in SA 1st test.

3.Starting with a 2nd choice attack

4.No planning for batsmen

5.slip catching having become even more horrible instead of any improvement

6. Pandya's role as undecided

7.No vision, no strategy, no pre-planning, starting with wrong foot.

If we had Kumble instead of Shastri, we could have seen completely different planning.Under every captain, we did well only when we had an able coach. Ganguly-Wright, Dhoni-Kirsten. When they left, team disintegrated too. 

Top post. Agree cent percent. Even more

[rkt.india]

19 hours ago, Chandan said:

I think the most to be blamed is the team management. When SA series had concluded, they had listed the problems India had gone through and which had prevented them from winning a series they could and should have won. Also after realising those mistakes they had promised that they would plan accordingly for England tour which was 6 months away. What do the captain and coach do?

 

1.grind the main weapon Bhuvi to dust before the tour instead of resting him from IPL.

2.No identification of openers and number 3 and repeating the same mistake they did in SA 1st test.

3.Starting with a 2nd choice attack

4.No planning for batsmen

5.slip catching having become even more horrible instead of any improvement

6. Pandya's role as undecided

7.No vision, no strategy, no pre-planning, starting with wrong foot.

If we had Kumble instead of Shastri, we could have seen completely different planning.Under every captain, we did well only when we had an able coach. Ganguly-Wright, Dhoni-Kirsten. When they left, team disintegrated too. 

how could you rest BK from IPL?

[rkt.india]

16 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

Rahul/Rahane two gutless players in the middle order. I would even forgive openers. For heaven sake, they gave 50 runs in 9 overs to the middle order in the first innings. Same way in the second innings they did play a few overs. You didn't see first over dismissals. I would blame them.

here you are wrong. first over dismissal can be digested as you are not set but getting out after you have played enough deliveries and then playing bad shots that is what is unacceptable.

[R!TTER]

Just now, rkt.india said:

here you are wrong. first over dismissal can be digested as you are not set but getting out after you have played enough deliveries and then playing bad shots that is what is unacceptable.

Absolutely, Dhawan and Vijay deserve the sack for that but I feel one of them (or both) will stick around for a while yet. Till Koach is managing the affairs.

[Straight Drive]

19 hours ago, Chandan said:

I think the most to be blamed is the team management. When SA series had concluded, they had listed the problems India had gone through and which had prevented them from winning a series they could and should have won. Also after realising those mistakes they had promised that they would plan accordingly for England tour which was 6 months away. What do the captain and coach do?

 

1.grind the main weapon Bhuvi to dust before the tour instead of resting him from IPL.

2.No identification of openers and number 3 and repeating the same mistake they did in SA 1st test.

3.Starting with a 2nd choice attack

4.No planning for batsmen

5.slip catching having become even more horrible instead of any improvement

6. Pandya's role as undecided

7.No vision, no strategy, no pre-planning, starting with wrong foot.

If we had Kumble instead of Shastri, we could have seen completely different planning.Under every captain, we did well only when we had an able coach. Ganguly-Wright, Dhoni-Kirsten. When they left, team disintegrated too. 

1. Yup, Bhuvi could have been rested more in IPL.

 

2. The No 3. is a joke now . One time we had Rahul Dravid who was the Wall and a all weather batsman, now we are struggling to find No. 3 who is an all-weather batsman. 

 

3. Well, the bowling even though second choice due to forced reasons did well imo.

 

4. I dont think even opponent bowlers are planning for our batsman apart form plans to get Virat out. It's the worst batting order for overseas conditions i have watched in last 4 decades. 

 

5. Regulation catches are dropped more frequently now even though out-fielding has improved and some fabuluous out-filed catches are being taken by limited fielders like Hardik, Jaddu, Manish Pandey. Slip fielding is at its worst.

 

6. Don't agree with this. He is being played as all-rounder, isn't he ? Not sure what you meant by his role not being decided yet. 

 

7. The SA tour performances should have triggered a new plan/ vision etc, but then the vision has been FTB's and only FTB's, which is working massively in home conditions.

 

A very good post though.

[Laaloo]

Meyeppan and csk

[putrevus]

On 8/5/2018 at 8:15 AM, Lannister said:

Kumble atleast had plans on how to tackle overseas tours and he was working on it during our home season. Enter Ravi Shastri, all the hard work done has gone to gutter. 

Really what master plans did he Kumble have in CT finals and was he not the coach when Chase hit century to save a test in WI.

[Chandan]

5 hours ago, rkt.india said:

how could you rest BK from IPL?

After 2016-17 home season many players were suffering from niggling injuries, were jaded and team wanted them fit for CT in JUNE. They were rested/half rested from IPL that year:

 

https://goo.gl/yt28bn :

IPL 2017: R Ashwin, KL Rahul, Murali Vijay out; some rest for Umesh Yadav, Ravindra Jadeja

All this after skipper Virat Kohli, inarguably the biggest draw of the glamorous event, is set to miss a few matches due to shoulder injury.

A 100 per cent fit Ashwin is a must for India in the upcoming Champions Trophy in England from June 1 and playing 14 matches with little gap and lot of travelling would have only aggravated his problem.

The 30-year-old all-rounder has featured in all the 13 home Test matches this season. He has had an unbelievable workload of bowling a staggering 738.2 overs in which he has taken an astounding 82 wickets.

It is the highest by any Indian bowler in a season, contributing handsomely in bulk of India’s 10 Test victories.

Jadeja, who is expected to be rested in a few IPL games, has also bowled no less than 717.2 overs, getting 71 wickets.

Fast bowler Umesh has sent down 355.5 overs in 12 games with 30 wickets to his name. One has to take into account that Umesh’s overs were bowled in Indian conditions where, save Kolkata and Dharamsala, the wickets were not exactly conducive to fast bowling.

In case of Rahul and Vijay, both have had injury issues, especially shoulder, during the home season. In fact, a source close to the team management had once revealed that whenever Rahul played a lofted shot, he would get a jerk on his shoulder and physio Patrick Farhart needed to come to his rescue.

There were also reports that the Indian team management had a discussion with IPL authorities and accordingly the BCCI is trying to ensure that the players don’t get jaded by the time Champions Trophy starts where Kohli’s boys will be defending the title they won in 2013.

---

Bhuvi was going through back niggles just after SA series. Why could he not have been rested from IPL? Was Eng tour less important than CT? Answer is very simple. Team management was least bothered and didn't put up a case for it.

[Lannister]

1 hour ago, putrevus said:

Really what master plans did he Kumble have in CT finals and was he not the coach when Chase hit century to save a test in WI.

you seriously asking that? By the time of CT, it was Kohli who took all the decisions. The news was that he went against Kumble's decision to bat first in the CT finals and got his arse handed over in a platter. I didn't know we lost a Test series in WI. 

[mishra]

1 hour ago, putrevus said:

Really what master plans did he Kumble have in CT finals and was he not the coach when Chase hit century to save a test in WI.

Bat first.

[Chandan]

5 hours ago, Straight Drive said:

 

 

6. Don't agree with this. He is being played as all-rounder, isn't he ? Not sure what you meant by his role not being decided yet. 

 

If Pandya is playing as an all rounder, why isn't he given enough number of overs to bowl?

Out of 90 overs that India bowled in 1st inning, Pandya bowled just 10. In second inning, out of 53 overs, he bowled not a single ball.

If you compare him with other all rounder, Stokes bowled 19 overs of 76 bowled by England and took 2 wickets too in 1st inning. In 2nd inning he bowled 14.2 overs of 54.2 overs and took 4 wkts. Now before you say that Stokes is established and Pandya is new, you can compare him with Curran, though Curran is not playing as an all rounder. 

Secondly, an all rounder comes to bat at #6, not at #8. So what is he in the team for? Bowling? No way! Batting? Doesn't seem like that the way he comes so low. So his role?

You can't be wasting one place just because you want to give rest to your bowlers and have someone who can bowl 10 overs in 2 innings even if he goes 4 runs per over. That's virtually playing with a 10 man team.

If you want him in the team, clarify his role as a batsman or as a bowler or both. He can't be a bits and pieces players who is neither a bowler nor a batsman.

[rkt.india]

14 minutes ago, Chandan said:

After 2016-17 home season many players were suffering from niggling injuries, were jaded and team wanted them fit for CT in JUNE. They were rested/half rested from IPL that year:

 

https://goo.gl/yt28bn :

IPL 2017: R Ashwin, KL Rahul, Murali Vijay out; some rest for Umesh Yadav, Ravindra Jadeja

All this after skipper Virat Kohli, inarguably the biggest draw of the glamorous event, is set to miss a few matches due to shoulder injury.

A 100 per cent fit Ashwin is a must for India in the upcoming Champions Trophy in England from June 1 and playing 14 matches with little gap and lot of travelling would have only aggravated his problem.

The 30-year-old all-rounder has featured in all the 13 home Test matches this season. He has had an unbelievable workload of bowling a staggering 738.2 overs in which he has taken an astounding 82 wickets.

It is the highest by any Indian bowler in a season, contributing handsomely in bulk of India’s 10 Test victories.

Jadeja, who is expected to be rested in a few IPL games, has also bowled no less than 717.2 overs, getting 71 wickets.

Fast bowler Umesh has sent down 355.5 overs in 12 games with 30 wickets to his name. One has to take into account that Umesh’s overs were bowled in Indian conditions where, save Kolkata and Dharamsala, the wickets were not exactly conducive to fast bowling.

In case of Rahul and Vijay, both have had injury issues, especially shoulder, during the home season. In fact, a source close to the team management had once revealed that whenever Rahul played a lofted shot, he would get a jerk on his shoulder and physio Patrick Farhart needed to come to his rescue.

There were also reports that the Indian team management had a discussion with IPL authorities and accordingly the BCCI is trying to ensure that the players don’t get jaded by the time Champions Trophy starts where Kohli’s boys will be defending the title they won in 2013.

---

Bhuvi was going through back niggles just after SA series. Why could he not have been rested from IPL? Was Eng tour less important than CT? Answer is very simple. Team management was least bothered and didn't put up a case for it.

All of them were injured at that point.  BK was not.  He did have injury during SA tour but he had recovered and only after that he played IPL and it is up to a player what he feels. Ashwin decided to have surgery and stayed out of IPL by choice. Same with Virat, Vijay and others.  They had visible injuries like should fracture, finger fracture, wrist issues, etc.  BK's injury has been different and it recurred.  You will never know in advance whether the injury is recurring or not.  He recovered then played IPL but it recurred again.  it is not like he played IPL with broken back or something. 

 

Like it happened with Aaron in 2012 just before Aus tour.  he had just recovered from back injury few months back but it again recurred while playing ODIs against WI.  Even if BK had rested whole IPL, he still had to play something to gauge whether his injury has healed or not or it might have even recurred mid test or tour, which is the most avoidable thing.  Think, he could not survive 4 overs in IPL and 4 overs in T20s in England, how could he have 20 overs a day test match?

[rkt.india]

9 minutes ago, Chandan said:

If Pandya is playing as an all rounder, why isn't he given enough number of overs to bowl?

Out of 90 overs that India bowled in 1st inning, Pandya bowled just 10. In second inning, out of 53 overs, he bowled not a single ball.

If you compare him with other all rounder, Stokes bowled 19 overs of 76 bowled by England and took 2 wickets too in 1st inning. In 2nd inning he bowled 14.2 overs of 54.2 overs and took 4 wkts. Now before you say that Stokes is established and Pandya is new, you can compare him with Curran, though Curran is not playing as an all rounder. 

 

that is because Pandya is our 5th bowler, stokes is their 4th bowler and test cricket is a game of 4 bowlers.  A 5th bowler only comes in to play when main 4 bowlers are struggling or to give rest to main bowlers.  In second innings, our top four bowlers did the job.  in first innings, root and JB had a partnership and he came and stopped the run flow in his 5 over spell giving just 11 runs.  he got his second spell when tail was batting and they got some edgy runs.

 

Pandya batted at 8 in 2nd innings because they promoted Ashwin as nightwatchman.

[mishra]

19 minutes ago, Chandan said:

If Pandya is playing as an all rounder, why isn't he given enough number of overs to bowl?

Out of 90 overs that India bowled in 1st inning, Pandya bowled just 10. In second inning, out of 53 overs, he bowled not a single ball.

If you compare him with other all rounder, Stokes bowled 19 overs of 76 bowled by England and took 2 wickets too in 1st inning. In 2nd inning he bowled 14.2 overs of 54.2 overs and took 4 wkts. Now before you say that Stokes is established and Pandya is new, you can compare him with Curran, though Curran is not playing as an all rounder. 

Secondly, an all rounder comes to bat at #6, not at #8. So what is he in the team for? Bowling? No way! Batting? Doesn't seem like that the way he comes so low. So his role?

You can't be wasting one place just because you want to give rest to your bowlers and have someone who can bowl 10 overs in 2 innings even if he goes 4 runs per over. That's virtually playing with a 10 man team.

If you want him in the team, clarify his role as a batsman or as a bowler or both. He can't be a bits and pieces players who is neither a bowler nor a batsman.

Pandya is not bits and pieces player. problem is different. In England ball used is Dukes. It stays harder for longer and swings due to conditions. What is needed, is Pandya to train himself the exact length he needs to ball. The two length he should train is full when he comes as first change or accurate yorkers/full and good length ball

And Batting wise, he should be in before any other bowler or wicket keepers walks in.

Bottom line is. He needs to work Hard. He should be backed and told what is expected of him in no uncertain terms i.e. We wont drop you. You are our hope and you have no option but to deliver

 

Edited August 6, 2018 by mishra

[Straight Drive]

25 minutes ago, Chandan said:

1. If Pandya is playing as an all rounder, why isn't he given enough number of overs to bowl?

Out of 90 overs that India bowled in 1st inning, Pandya bowled just 10. In second inning, out of 53 overs, he bowled not a single ball.

If you compare him with other all rounder, Stokes bowled 19 overs of 76 bowled by England and took 2 wickets too in 1st inning. In 2nd inning he bowled 14.2 overs of 54.2 overs and took 4 wkts. Now before you say that Stokes is established and Pandya is new, you can compare him with Curran, though Curran is not playing as an all rounder. 

Secondly, an all rounder comes to bat at #6, not at #8. So what is he in the team for? Bowling? No way! Batting? Doesn't seem like that the way he comes so low. So his role?

2.You can't be wasting one place just because you want to give rest to your bowlers and have someone who can bowl 10 overs in 2 innings even if he goes 4 runs per over. That's virtually playing with a 10 man team.

If you want him in the team, clarify his role as a batsman or as a bowler or both. He can't be a bits and pieces players who is neither a bowler nor a batsman.

I have added numbering to respond to various points.

 

1. His test bowling SR is 87 and average runs per wicket is 47 runs. In low scoring matches this average and SR becomes a concern for the captain. That could be one reason, not saying that Virat has specified it is the reason for using other specialist bowlers.

 

2. In no ways an all rounder should be used to just rotate and rest bowlers. It is pointless. Each and every resource has to be optimally used at this level of cricket. I haven't said an AR should be used to just roll over the arm to rest other bowlers and allow opponents to build partnerships. An AR is expected to have a range bound performance criteria or performance evaluation stat, rather than just batting and bowling. AR should be accountable for his batting and bowling stats. As simple as that. 

 

Edited August 6, 2018 by Straight Drive

[putrevus]

Bat first.

Really,So why did they bat second.


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[putrevus]

you seriously asking that? By the time of CT, it was Kohli who took all the decisions. The news was that he went against Kumble's decision to bat first in the CT finals and got his arse handed over in a platter. I didn't know we lost a Test series in WI. 

We did not lose a series in WI but we lost a chance to make 3-0.

This is same Kumble who was ultra conservative against Pakistan as a captain and lost a chance to win a test in Bangalore.

Personally I have no issues with Shastri as a coach, don’t know why people think Kumble was better.


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[R!TTER]

Just now, putrevus said:

We did not lose a series in WI but we lost a chance to make 3-0.

This is same Kumble who was ultra conservative against Pakistan as a captain and lost a chance to win a test in Bangalore.

Personally I have no issues with Shastri as a coach, don’t know why people think Kumble was better.


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That was due to bad light, did you even watch the game?

 

Figures, your line of thought demonstrates that you prefer a boastful loudmouth (tracer bullet) over someone who was a brilliant student of the game, better than Kohli as well.

[putrevus]

That was due to bad light, did you even watch the game?
 
Figures, your line of thought demonstrates that you prefer a boastful loudmouth (tracer bullet) over someone who was a brilliant student of the game, better than Kohli as well.

That was due bad light but Kumble delayed the declaration so Karthik could score his fifty.

I don’t comment unless I watched any match myself. Look on cricinfo you will find an article on how Kumble the captain denied Kumble the bowler.

How was Kumble brilliant student of the game but Shastri who was just bits and pieces player who made himself into a successful opener a loudmouth jerk.

Kohli who transformed himself from a so so player into ATG is also loudmouth jerk.

Shastri was best captain India never had and Kohli the best test captain India ever produced and people are complaining about them being jerks.




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[Chandan]

2 hours ago, rkt.india said:

that is because Pandya is our 5th bowler, stokes is their 4th bowler and test cricket is a game of 4 bowlers.  A 5th bowler only comes in to play when main 4 bowlers are struggling or to give rest to main bowlers.  In second innings, our top four bowlers did the job.  in first innings, root and JB had a partnership and he came and stopped the run flow in his 5 over spell giving just 11 runs.  he got his second spell when tail was batting and they got some edgy runs.

 

Pandya batted at 8 in 2nd innings because they promoted Ashwin as nightwatchman.

Simple question: Is he good enough to be picked as a batsman who can bat in top six, if he is the 5th bowler?

Or is he good enough to be picked as a seamer who can bowl 20 overs per day and who is expected to take 1/4th of total wickets to fall? This is what is expected of an all rounder. What role is given to Pandya, according to you. the way he plays?