Should Pant start batting at #6?

[zen]

1 minute ago, cowboysfan said:

absolutely not.He plays a high risk game and the law of averages say it wont work out like it did with some of his miscues in Sydney.

Are you implying that specialist batsmen at #6 have been doing better than Pant? If so, which specialist batsman at #6 has an avg higher than Pant? 

[Vijy]

Just now, vvvslaxman said:

We floated similar idea with Ashwin. Here is the thing. They are more likely to deliver when you don't expect much from them.

but ashwin's only 100s were against the relatively weak WI. Pant's 2 100s came in low-pressure situations, but they were in SENA, and both attacks were pretty good.

[zen]

2 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

We floated similar idea with Ashwin. Here is the thing. They are more likely to deliver when you don't expect much from them.

Pant is in a different league as a batsman than someone like Ashwin

[PSB_Zone]

Yes he can bat at 6 and than we can play both the spinners along with bhuvi or pandya to strenthen the tail..

Pant, Ashwin,Jadega,Bhuvi,Shami,Bumrah

[SK_IH]

4 hours ago, rkt.india said:

Dont want Ashwin.  he will again get injured mid series.  Either need to blood Kuldeep for full-time or some other off spinner like Gowtham. Ashwin's time is up in my book.

And this series has shown he is quite dispensable. He has not been missed at all.

But we ll surely see him in home series.

[cowboysfan]

13 minutes ago, zen said:

Are you implying that specialist batsmen at #6 have been doing better than Pant? If so, which specialist batsman at #6 has an avg higher than Pant? 

I think Rahane  is done and we need a new no 6 but no need to put pressure  on  Pant to change his game.

[ShoonyaSifar]

Thanks to the foresight of this amazingly ridiculous team management and selectors, next time Pant, alongwith Pujara and Mayank, bat for India will be in July. So much would have happened by then that such speculations will seem out of place.

 

Can you imagine the batsmen with fastest FC ( in 48 balls) and T20 ( in 30 balls) 100s in India not playing the shorter formats. Hats off to our selectors, Kohli and selectors for not taking any chance against Dhoni.

[zen]

Just now, cowboysfan said:

I think Rahane  is done and we need a new no 6 but no need to put pressure  on  Pant to change his game.

Rahane bats at 5 and the batting specialists at #6 have struggled. So we have a new #5 which can be filled by someone like Gill .... Pant can move up to #6 and try to play as he did in Sydney, where he has shown to have been adjusting to the learning curve of test cricket. He is only going to get better at test cricket 

[ShoonyaSifar]

20 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

We floated similar idea with Ashwin. Here is the thing. They are more likely to deliver when you don't expect much from them.

One difference being Pant has a FC average of 50+ (Ashwin is at 31). Pant has mostly played his FC cricket as an opener for Delhi, has scored 900+ runs in a FC season. Once he’s settled down in his career, he’s fully capable of batting at 6, but that will be after 12-18 months.

[zen]

38 minutes ago, Vijy said:

that's true. stewart had much less success as keeper-batsman compared to pure batsman. engineer's avg was in the low 30s, because he was a dasher who thew his wkt away often. sanga before giving up gloves had an avg of 40+, there's flower of course, and there was also WI great walcott who gave up the gloves. but it's rather rare to find keepers in the top 6 who avg > 40.

At the moment, we do not even have that many specialist batsmen who can avg in 40-45 bracket after playing a decent amount of tests 

[zen]

In ODIs, Pant is good enough to play anywhere in top 6 

 

Rohit

Dhawan

Kohli

Agarwal / Shaw

Pant / Gill 

Gill / Pant 

 

Likes of Agarwal, Shaw and Gill can strengthen the ODI team as well 

 

(this is a good topic on its own) 

[vvvslaxman]

1 hour ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

One difference being Pant has a FC average of 50+ (Ashwin is at 31). Pant has mostly played his FC cricket as an opener for Delhi, has scored 900+ runs in a FC season. Once he’s settled down in his career, he’s fully capable of batting at 6, but that will be after 12-18 months.

Unless we have an "amazing keeper" who can do a better job than Pant, Pant is here to stay as a keeper who will bat at 7. Unless we float the idea of using 5 bowlers everywhere we go Pant batting at 7 makes more sense.

[coffee_rules]

Only way Pant is at #6, if we get in your man, Pandya in and 5 bowlers. I see why you want him at #6  @zen

Edited January 4, 2019 by coffee_rules

[zen]

25 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Unless we have an "amazing keeper" who can do a better job than Pant, Pant is here to stay as a keeper who will bat at 7. Unless we float the idea of using 5 bowlers everywhere we go Pant batting at 7 makes more sense.

There is no such rule that keepers have to bat at 7, and when your specialist batsmen at #5-6 are so fragile that the #7 is batting earlier than expected anyways .... Depending up on form and situation, batting position could be swapped b/w 6 and 7. But we should not be plugging in players at #6 just because Pant can be at #7 .... Planning would be done based on answering the question that do we have quality specialist batsman who can do a better job at #6? If the answer is no, Pant moves up. This allows us to play an AR / bowler / WK, who if required can bat at 6 too  

 

I guess, you are taking this literally that one has to bat at a fixed position no matter what the circumstances. The discussion is more from a planning perspective. As a pure batsman, Pant could be good enough to bat at #5 for e.g. 

 

PS from 1st Jan 2018 to date

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Primary team India

Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2018

Qualifications innings batted greater than or equal to 10  and runs scored greater than or equal to 200

Ordered by batting average (descending)

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Player	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
V Kohli	14	25	0	1345	153	53.80	2492	53.97	5	5	2	148	2
RR Pant	9	15	1	696	159*	49.71	943	73.80	2	2	1	70	17
CA Pujara	14	24	1	1030	193	44.78	2549	40.40	4	4	3	120	2
AM Rahane	13	22	0	662	81	30.09	1517	43.63	0	5	1	66	3
S Dhawan	6	11	0	301	107	27.36	421	71.49	1	0	0	47	3
HH Pandya	8	15	1	354	93	25.28	555	63.78	0	3	2	52	2
KL Rahul	13	23	1	477	149	21.68	799	59.69	1	1	4	62	3
R Ashwin	10	17	2	306	38	20.40	552	55.43	0	0	0	40	1
M Vijay	8	15	0	282	105	18.80	741	38.05	1	0	3	34	1

Edited January 4, 2019 by zen

[zen]

10 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

Only way Pant is at #6, if we get in your man, Pandya in and 5 bowlers. I see why you want him at #6  @zen

in that case, can we assume that ppl do not want Pant at 6 so Ind cannot play Pandya (who can bat at 6 too btw if required ) or 5 bowlers or even a WK like Saha if required?

Edited January 4, 2019 by zen

[flamy]

2 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

Keepers mature when they age. How many 21/22 year olds have pristine keeping record. They will have their odd failures. He still created a record for 21 catches. I prefer him to play as a keeper. He has to improve. No doubt about that. But is he pappu patel, kkd bad? No.  

That's a weird record. It depends on the bowlers creating the chances for him too. Sure, he took them, but it is not like a fair competition between two keepers for a record like this because of external dependency.

[vvvslaxman]

10 minutes ago, zen said:

There is no such rule that keepers have to bat at 7, and when your specialist batsmen at #5-6 are so fragile that the #7 is batting earlier than expected anyways .... Depending up on form and situation, batting position could be swapped b/w 6 and 7. But we should not be plugging in players at #6 just because Pant can be at #7 .... Planning would be done based on answering the question that do we have quality specialist batsman who can do a better job at #6? If the answer is no, Pant moves up. This allows us to play an AR / bowler / WK, who if required can bat at 6 too  

 

I guess, you are taking this literally that one has to bat at a fixed position. The discussion is more from a planning perspective. As a pure batsman, Pant could be good enough to bat at #5 for e.g. 

 

PS from 1st Jan 2018 to date

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Primary team India

Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2018

Qualifications innings batted greater than or equal to 10  and runs scored greater than or equal to 200

Ordered by batting average (descending)

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Player	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
V Kohli	14	25	0	1345	153	53.80	2492	53.97	5	5	2	148	2
RR Pant	9	15	1	696	159*	49.71	943	73.80	2	2	1	70	17
CA Pujara	14	24	1	1030	193	44.78	2549	40.40	4	4	3	120	2
AM Rahane	13	22	0	662	81	30.09	1517	43.63	0	5	1	66	3
S Dhawan	6	11	0	301	107	27.36	421	71.49	1	0	0	47	3
HH Pandya	8	15	1	354	93	25.28	555	63.78	0	3	2	52	2
KL Rahul	13	23	1	477	149	21.68	799	59.69	1	1	4	62	3
R Ashwin	10	17	2	306	38	20.40	552	55.43	0	0	0	40	1
M Vijay	8	15	0	282	105	18.80	741	38.05	1	0	3	34	1

You are talking about a different thing. Being flexible. If Pandya always plays then they can switch between Pant and Pandya. What if India plays only 4 bowlers? In such scenarios Pant can come at 7. SPecialist bat will come at 6. Just after 2 series promoting him to 6 can backfire.

[ShoonyaSifar]

28 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Unless we have an "amazing keeper" who can do a better job than Pant, Pant is here to stay as a keeper who will bat at 7. Unless we float the idea of using 5 bowlers everywhere we go Pant batting at 7 makes more sense.

Which is what we had just 6 months ago with Saha/Ashwin at 6. Pant is a better bat than both. He will obviously be studied a lot more now and teams will have bowling plans for him but he looks good enough for at least 15 test 100s and a 45+ average if not more. 

[zen]

7 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

You are talking about a different thing. Being flexible. If Pandya always plays then they can switch between Pant and Pandya. What if India plays only 4 bowlers? In such scenarios Pant can come at 7. SPecialist bat will come at 6. Just after 2 series promoting him to 6 can backfire.

why would it backfire when Ind is scheduled to play WI in WI and then at home vs SA and BD? We saw how Pant fared vs WI at home. Our next tour to NZ (Q1) and Aus (Q4) is in 2020, which gives us the opportunity to develop Pant further .... And he has been more successful in the 5 to 7 position among specialist batsmen who played in SEA too

 

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Primary team India

Opposition team Australia  or England  or South Africa

Home or away away (home of opposition)

Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2018

Batting position between 5 and 7

Ordered by batting average (descending)

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Overall figures

Player	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
RR Pant	7	13	1	512	159*	42.66	725	70.62	2	0	1	51	11
GH Vihari	3	5	0	146	56	29.20	347	42.07	0	1	1	18	1
V Kohli	2	2	0	58	41	29.00	108	53.70	0	0	0	8	0
AM Rahane	10	18	0	518	81	28.77	1164	44.50	0	4	1	50	3
RG Sharma	4	8	1	184	63*	26.28	389	47.30	0	1	0	16	4
HH Pandya	7	13	1	252	93	21.00	400	63.00	0	2	2	38	2
PA Patel	2	3	0	40	19	13.33	103	38.83	0	0	0	5	0
R Ashwin	2	2	0	25	13	12.50	46	54.34	0	0	0	5	0
WP Saha	1	1	0	8	8	8.00	19	42.10	0	0	0	2	0
KD Karthik	2	4	0	21	20	5.25	58	36.20	0	0	2	2	0

Edited January 4, 2019 by zen

[vvvslaxman]

Gilly always said that his runs are bonus. SO he had the license to play the way he wanted all through his career.  Pant has to be given that kind of freedom.