Bhuvneswar Kumar ODI bowling discussion thread

[R!TTER]

4 minutes ago, sandeep said:

So an econ rate of 5.23 is not acceptable?  Extrapolated to 50 overs that is what, 260?  In the age where 320 is par?  From the guy that regularly bowls in the power-play and death?  Again, which bowler would you trust to do this job?  

 

Mind you, I'm not saying Bhuvi's returns here are the best they can be - Bumrah clearly is a goddam stud - but the point is that Bhuvi's numbers are quite reasonable in current batsman friendly ODI context.  And more importantly, we have cycled through a handful of alternatives in the Indian team who have demonstrated that they would do far, far worse than Bhuvi if thrust into that role.  

 

Btw, In the stats you posted, I see that Bhuvi has significantly better ER than Trent Boult and Plunkett - while his average is quite comparable to Boult's.   And Boult is NZ's lead pacer.  

BK's numbers are consistently in the bottom half, this at a time when SA/Aus haven't fielded their first 11 in the 2 series we played them previously in. Not only are his numbers middling but he doesn't have anything to go back to when he encounters super flat tracks, like Mumbai 2015 or CT 2017 finale. If we're using him as a new ball bowler only, then he must bowl out consistently around the 40 over mark. There's just no way he brings enough to the table to be a shoe in for this side, now if the pitches in England aren't super flat & help his swing then things could be different, but then other teams have much superior pace attacks so we're screwed anyway.

[R!TTER]

What's with Mama Shri down voting others en masse, is this Urmi's uncle's account 

[sandeep]

10 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

What's with Mama Shri down voting others en masse, is this Urmi's uncle's account 

My guess its the return of that chuski fan with the irrational hatred of all things Bombay.  That guy regularly logs in with different ids and downvotes all of my posts - height of pathetic obsession 

[zen]

18 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Bhuvi's been dealing with a chronic back-issue that cropped up smack dab in the middle of the last 12 months, which has had a clear impact on his performances.  His bowling in the recent home ODI series was pedestrian no doubt.  That is why, you need to take statistics in their proper context.  FFS we just had 2 games where we saw Shami, Khaleel and Siraj bowl - Bhuvi is by far the most dependable of this lot with the new ball and at the death.  

 

But why bother with facts and logic, when agenda ooncha rahe hamara.

So he is not an improved bowler (for whatever reasons) 

[sandeep]

14 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

BK's numbers are consistently in the bottom half, this at a time when SA/Aus haven't fielded their first 11 in the 2 series we played them previously in. Not only are his numbers middling but he doesn't have anything to go back to when he encounters super flat tracks, like Mumbai 2015 or CT 2017 finale. If we're using him as a new ball bowler only, then he must bowl out consistently around the 40 over mark. There's just no way he brings enough to the table to be a shoe in for this side, now if the pitches in England aren't super flat & help his swing then things could be different, but then other teams have much superior pace attacks so we're screwed anyway.

I am not saying we shouldn't be expecting more from BK - but let's be dispassionately objective here - the previous ODI was easily a 320 par - Virat said in the post match interview that he thought 330 was par on this wicket - and BK was by yards the best pace bowler in the game.  And not just with the new ball.  4 for 45 in 10 overs - what more do you want?  

 

The thing with Bhuvi is, that even on his bad days, he isn't going to lose you the game by having a 10-0-75-0 day.  Its the nature of the ODI game that even good bowlers are going to get spanked for runs on a given day.  Bhuvi's statistical floor is pretty high.  The Indian team has auditioned a few alternatives to him - Sid Kaul, Umesh, Shardul, Khaleel, now Siraj.  It is clear that none of them can come close to him.  Even Shami is not a bowler who can be trusted easily - he is really good, but his gifted boundary ball ratio per over is quite high.  

 

So on a bad day, Bhuvi won't screw over the team, and on a good day he can win you games.  And I genuinely believe that he will keep delivering better results if he stays fit.  He's a quality bowler who complements Bumrah really well.  Now if we had other better bowlers waiting in the wings, then I can definitely accept the case that Bhuvi's numbers aren't stellar.  But there is no Rabada or Woakes on the Indian bench.  That's just the reality of the current situation.

[sandeep]

7 minutes ago, zen said:

So he is not an improved bowler (for whatever reasons) 

Look at the stats slice that @R!TTER posted - Bhuvi's avg drops to 32 there.  But sure, if you want to believe that a few meaningless ODI home games against West Indies played when he was coming back from injury, have more importance than anything else, even more so than a 4-45 performance in Aus - sure.  Whatever floats your boat.  

[zen]

2 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Look at the stats slice that @R!TTER posted - Bhuvi's avg drops to 32 there.  But sure, if you want to believe that a few meaningless ODI home games against West Indies played when he was coming back from injury, have more importance than anything else, even more so than a 4-45 performance in Aus - sure.  Whatever floats your boat.  

That is something you have posted too i.e. Bhuvi is an improved bowler in the last 20 months (1 Apr 2017) .... And as discussed: 

 

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	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	Ave	Econ	SR	4	5
unfiltered	97	96	778.4	61	3895	105	5/42	37.09	5.00	44.4	3	1	Profile
filtered	38	37	290.5	16	1478	44	5/42	33.59	5.08	39.6	1	1

 

 

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	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	Ave	Econ	SR	4	5
unfiltered	97	96	778.4	61	3895	105	5/42	37.09	5.00	44.4	3	1	Profile
filtered	16	16	121.0	6	648	17	4/45	38.11	5.35	42.7	1	0

 

 

 

what is next, Rahane is an improved batsman since 2014?

 

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	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
unfiltered	2013-2019	56	95	9	3488	188	40.55	6887	50.64	9	17	6	389	26	Profile
filtered	2014-2019	53	89	8	3271	188	40.38	6421	50.94	9	15	6	359	24

 

 

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	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
unfiltered	56	95	9	3488	188	40.55	6887	50.64	9	17	6	389	26	Profile
filtered	13	22	0	662	81	30.09	1517	43.63	0	5	1	66	3

 

[Vijy]

2 hours ago, sandeep said:

I am not saying we shouldn't be expecting more from BK - but let's be dispassionately objective here - the previous ODI was easily a 320 par - Virat said in the post match interview that he thought 330 was par on this wicket - and BK was by yards the best pace bowler in the game.  And not just with the new ball.  4 for 45 in 10 overs - what more do you want?  

 

The thing with Bhuvi is, that even on his bad days, he isn't going to lose you the game by having a 10-0-75-0 day.  Its the nature of the ODI game that even good bowlers are going to get spanked for runs on a given day.  Bhuvi's statistical floor is pretty high.  The Indian team has auditioned a few alternatives to him - Sid Kaul, Umesh, Shardul, Khaleel, now Siraj.  It is clear that none of them can come close to him.  Even Shami is not a bowler who can be trusted easily - he is really good, but his gifted boundary ball ratio per over is quite high.  

 

So on a bad day, Bhuvi won't screw over the team, and on a good day he can win you games.  And I genuinely believe that he will keep delivering better results if he stays fit.  He's a quality bowler who complements Bumrah really well.  Now if we had other better bowlers waiting in the wings, then I can definitely accept the case that Bhuvi's numbers aren't stellar.  But there is no Rabada or Woakes on the Indian bench.  That's just the reality of the current situation.

I think the crux of the matter is in the last paragraph. we don't have any tangible options as of now, especially for 2019 WC. sure, maybe one day nagarkoti, mavi, salam, kid flash, etc. will all become awesome ODI fast bowlers, but that day is not yet here.

[sandeep]

1st over from Bhuvi -  1 run off an intended leave, 1 lbw appeal, and an edge that almost carried to 1st slip.

 

2nd over from Shami, 3 balls in, freebie boundary ball duly served up.  

[Cricketics]

39 minutes ago, sandeep said:

1st over from Bhuvi -  1 run off an intended leave, 1 lbw appeal, and an edge that almost carried to 1st slip.

 

2nd over from Shami, 3 balls in, freebie boundary ball duly served up.  

Inko nahi samaj aane waala. Odis has changed. Bhuvi does his role well. He has to be part of the squad.

 

They blindly look at average and say he is shyt when actual thing is he is playing his role well and will do well even at the world cup.

 

We are playing 9 games at the world cup at least before semis. No way we will play same bowling line up in every game. Bhuvi will be our MVP. 

 

 

 

[Cricketics]

And he strikes, lol. What a start. 

[sandeep]

3.1 overs 1 for 6 from Bhuvi.  Meanwhile Shami's served up 2 boundary balls so far.

[sandeep]

And now an edge that should have been a wicket, but goes for 4.  Stupid Kohli.  Why isn't there a 2nd slip when Bhuvi is making the ball talk like this? 

[express bowling]

7 hours ago, Vijy said:

I think the crux of the matter is in the last paragraph. we don't have any tangible options as of now, especially for 2019 WC.

 

Exactly.

 

Moreover,  the pace bowling culture in Team India has matured now.  We look for bowlers who can put a high percentage of balls in the right areas and preferably at a high pace.

 

Accuracy at high pace is preferred ...  but, if such pacers are not available in sufficient numbers, then the next best option is an accurate and skilled pacer like Bhuvi  (  who becomes one of the preferred choices if the conditions favour movement like the 3rd ODI  today  )

 

Bumrah, Shami, Ishant and Bhuvi come across as dependable bowlers in most matches they play nowadays.  And that is largely due to the pace bowling culture that the TM has been able to set up.  And that is what the TM covet.

 

It is neither just about past stats and nor about Bhuvi vs Shami or whatever.   We need the whole dependable pool. And it looks like Bumrah, Bhuvi and Shami for WC 2019.

 

 

7 hours ago, Vijy said:

sure, maybe one day nagarkoti, mavi, salam, kid flash, etc. will all become awesome ODI fast bowlers, but that day is not yet here.

 

This is the part which puzzles me.

 

The same TM which has been able to create a potent pool of right kind of international pacers in

Bumrah  ( bouncy fast bowler with high skills )  

Shami  ( skiddy fast bowler with skills )

Ishant  ( tall, accurate fast-medium pacer )

Bhuvi  ( genuine swing bowler who is accurate)

 

...  have tried to bring in guys like Kaul, Chahar  Umesh, Shardul etc.

 

All of these guys lack natural bounce ( and the extra accuracy needed for such non-bouncy pacers )  And Kaul and Chahar lack pace too.

 

Siraj too is a very inaccurate pacer.  Khaleel was the only correct pick  (  who unfortunate decided to bowl 15 kph slower from one fine day and lose all his potency  )

 

The time is now gone to prepare new quicks for WC 2019 ... but I hope that we try to pick the right kind of pacers to develop after the WC 2019.

[rkt.india]

1 hour ago, Cricketics said:

Inko nahi samaj aane waala. Odis has changed. Bhuvi does his role well. He has to be part of the squad.

 

They blindly look at average and say he is shyt when actual thing is he is playing his role well and will do well even at the world cup.

 

We are playing 9 games at the world cup at least before semis. No way we will play same bowling line up in every game. Bhuvi will be our MVP. 

 

 

 

samajh aapko nahi aata.  he was bowling poorly before so got criticized, was bowling defensively instead of trying to take wickets with new ball.  He had become one of the worst bowler with new ball. There is a reason his average is 38 and SR is in high 40s. If he keeps taking wickets and bowl well like this his average will come down eventually and his stats will look better.   Average and stats may not be everything but they do indicate something in a long term when a bowler has played almost 100 ODIs and takes 95 games to reach 100 wickets, it does indicate that he was not taking enough wickets.  WHy you think Ashwin and Jadeja were dropped from ODIs despite having better records than BK.  Jadeja averages 35, Ashwin 32.9 because they were not taking enough wickets in the middle overs.  I like BK as a bowler in ODIs because he brings consistency and control and if he starts taking wickets like he is doing now, he will be a great asset for us along with Bumrah.  

[Cricketics]

3 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

samajh aapko nahi aata.  he was bowling poorly before so got criticized, was bowling defensively instead of trying to take wickets with new ball.  He had become one of the worst bowler with new ball. There is a reason his average is 38 and SR is in high 40s. If he keeps taking wickets and bowl well like this his average will come down eventually and his stats will look better.   Average and stats may not be everything but they do indicate something in a long term when a bowler has played almost 100 ODIs and takes 95 games to reach 100 wickets, it does indicate that he was not taking enough wickets.  WHy you think Ashwin and Jadeja were dropped from ODIs despite having better records than BK.  Jadeja averages 35, Ashwin 32.9 because they were not taking enough wickets in the middle overs.  I like BK as a bowler in ODIs because he brings consistency and control and if he starts taking wickets like he is doing now, he will be a great asset for us along with Bumrah.  

He was average in the middle and I agree but to keep sayinf he should be not picked whoch is why we have so many threads about Bhuvi, shows people don’t want him just based on stats.

 

At least wait for series to complete. One starts questioninf after him not bowling the yorkers in his first game knowing he can be rusty as he sat full series ourside and its quite comman for any pace bowler to miss their yorkers and go for full toss.

 

Every fast bowler gets taken apart at death often.

 

Also being in and out of the team doesn’t help a fast bowler.

 

Hopefully Kohli will play him full of NZ series. 

 

[rkt.india]

2 minutes ago, Cricketics said:

He was average in the middle and I agree but to keep sayinf he should be not picked whoch is why we have so many threads about Bhuvi, shows people don’t want him just based on stats.

 

At least wait for series to complete. One starts quesriom after him not bowling the yorkers in his first game knowing he can be rusty as he sat dull series ourside and its quite comman for any pace bowler to miss their yorkers and go for full toss.

 

Every fast bowler gets taken apart at death often.

 

Also being in and out of the team doesn’t help a fast bowler.

 

 

he has not been in and out of the team.  he is regularly playing LOIs for India. Was only out when he was injured.

[Cricketics]

4 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

he has not been in and out of the team.  he is regularly playing LOIs for India. Was only out when he was injured.

Overall average I am talking about. That spans long time.

 

anyway, his role is to give us good start and put pressure on the oppositons and support Bumrah and co to finish of the last 5-7 overs at death. 

 

He needs to work on his death bowling but he is doing fine as a new ball bowler.

 

 

[express bowling]

5 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

, was bowling defensively instead of trying to take wickets with new ball.  He had become one of the worst bowler with new ball. There is a reason his average is 38 and SR is in high 40s. If he keeps taking wickets and bowl well like this his average will come down eventually and his stats will look better. 

 

Very true.   Bhuvi in particular, and even other pacers to some extent,  were bowling defensive lines and lengths in their first spells in ODIs from mid 2016 to mid 2018.  Good to see it change in the last few months.  

 

A high percentage of top of off stump and channel balls have been bowled recently and that has created s big difference.

 

5 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

  Average and stats may not be everything but they do indicate something in a long term when a bowler has played almost 100 ODIs and takes 95 games to reach 100 wickets, it does indicate that he was not taking enough wickets.  WHy you think Ashwin and Jadeja were dropped from ODIs despite having better records than BK.  Jadeja averages 35, Ashwin 32.9 because they were not taking enough wickets in the middle overs.  I like BK as a bowler in ODIs because he brings consistency and control and if he starts taking wickets like he is doing now, he will be a great asset for us along with Bumrah.  

 

Agree.

[zen]

In Eng, teams would be playing their strongest squads .... Aus team has been relatively poor and the conditions have been sporting enough .... Melbourne has supported quicks (trundlers here apart from Shami), who have been economical, while the spinners have gone for runs (though Chahal picked up 3 wkts so far) 

Edited January 18, 2019 by zen