Even Pakistan’s lower order >>>> India’s

[Vk1]

4 hours ago, maniac said:

Kuldeep or Bumrah at best are batsman who can give good support in a collapse situation by hanging in. They cannot hack the ball.

 

Shami and Bhuvi are capable of scoring some runs. In fact Bhuvi is miles better than Jadeja

True.. in  90s you needed a tail that can hang in and try the target of  30 of 30 balls in chases or score a handy 8 of 9 balls while batting first.. cannot imagine both these scenarios now.. you need more of what Hassan Ali has done today.. strike rate should always be in excess of 160

[vvvslaxman]

35 minutes ago, jusarrived said:

Morgan/stokes/root are not that great , you are overrating them . Anyway , i will not even talk about England’s batting, which is far superior in every aspect . Are we better than even Pakistan though ?  It dosent make sense comparing Rohit/Dhawan with our middle order , compare them with imam/fakar ..are they any better? ... I have accepted long back that our batting is average , which includes our opening . Rohit and Dhawan are one of the weakest opening pair in this WC . 

Your batting strategy should be based on your batting line up not based on Pakistan's batting line up. Hasan Ali can come down the order and can score a 50 Can Bumrah do that?  Unless you can be certain it is worth taking risk in the first 10 overs for an extra 20 runs, it is way too risky to be adventurous for a fragile line up like ours.  Pandya is highly effective when he comes somewhere after 35 overs. Morgan/Stokes/Root are not that great? They are like 100 times better than our middle order. Then they have Ali who can bat, Rashid who can bat, Woakes cho can bat, Archer who can bat. It will be Delhi collapso team. Every single wicket is precious for us upto 45th over. Risks should be calculated. INspite of all the weaknesses you are talking about India has the second highest run rate in the last 2 yeasr at 5.69. England 6.27 (including today's match). But to counter that India on an average concedes 5.09 runs per over. England gives away 5.82 runs per over. Net difference is better for India

Edited May 14, 2019 by vvvslaxman

[maniac]

1 hour ago, zen said:

Exactly, have to play as per the conditions and not some preconceived formula or perception 

 

The issue is in trying to discuss with guys who opposes likes of Pant to support Dhoni, Shankar and DK because they perceive them to be playing “safe” cricket, which is basically getting out LBW with a low score vs going for a 6. And then these guys would criticize Dhoni and Shankar, whom they support, to justify likes of Rohit playing perceived “safe” cricket and shield those guys, and when it is hard to play long innings consistently

 

If a player is in form, he will take less time to get going. If not, he is likely to get out at the first challenge

I dare any batsman to score most 180+ knocks in the history of cricket with the most selfish of approach and on the flattest of wickets. You have to be a genius to even achieve that.

 

There is a reason why Rohit has a sedate approach. We have had  a middle order of Jadhav,Shankar,Dhoni,Rayudu,Pandey,Pandya (good hitter but unreliable for long knocks) etc etc. 

 

We have an ATG bat in Kohli and Dhawan who has been mostly hit or miss recently.

 

Rohit apart from Pandya (whose ability against pace has improved recently) and Dhoni (past his prime) is the only genuine 6 hitter. Record speaks for itself.

 

Put Viv Richards in the team and ask him to open still won’t solve the problems.

 

We need a Yuvraj/Raina or even an Irfan Pathan or Bhajji in his prime type player.

 

solution to having a beautiful face and an ugly body is diet and exercise, not plastic surgery

 

problem is not top order is the middle order 

Edited May 14, 2019 by maniac

[zen]

31 minutes ago, maniac said:

I dare any batsman to score most 180+ knocks in the history of cricket with the most selfish of approach and on the flattest of wickets. You have to be a genius to even achieve that.

 

There is a reason why Rohit has a sedate approach. We have had  a middle order of Jadhav,Shankar,Dhoni,Rayudu,Pandey,Pandya (good hitter but unreliable for long knocks) etc etc. 

 

We have an ATG bat in Kohli and Dhawan who has been mostly hit or miss recently.

 

Rohit apart from Pandya (whose ability against pace has improved recently) and Dhoni (past his prime) is the only genuine 6 hitter. Record speaks for itself.

 

Put Viv Richards in the team and ask him to open still won’t solve the problems.

 

We need a Yuvraj/Raina or even an Irfan Pathan or Bhajji in his prime type player.

 

solution to having a beautiful face and an ugly body is diet and exercise, not plastic surgery

We  cannot mess up Ind’s total to play a 3 figure knock in 1 out of 13 inning, which no one cares for  

 

And the  data is available on this thread on how others have performed. Additionally on good batting pitches, there is no reason to assume others will fail .... and who asked Ind to select Dhoni if he is so bad

 

Note Viv Richards is a consistent performer vs major teams in world events. Rohit has performed like a tail ender (vs major teams)

 

Ind does not need a night watchman in ODIs esp. on such surfaces. If Rohit cannot set the tone and hope to hit a quick 100 on such surfaces, he should bat lower down or Ind should play someone else!

 

Edited May 14, 2019 by zen

[Pandya_Power]

I think its essential the middle order ups its game this WC. That means KLR / Shankar, MSD, Jadhav / Pant & Pandya have to learn to construct an innings. They all have the talent, its about the temperament now.

 

Problem is they have been short of match practice with our top 3 bei g good on most roads. Ideally our #4 should have got 15 games on the trot before the WC. One could say Rayudu wasn't going to make the cut, shouldn't have invested in him.

 

So its simple really - for IND to lift the cup bats #4 - #7 have to start striking at >130 and also average ~35. MSD needs to take good look at how the other top contenders approach batting nowadays.

[philcric]

9 hours ago, maniac said:

 

solution to having a beautiful face and an ugly body is diet and exercise

 

 

Yeah Rohit is a little unfit and heavy, but calling his body ugly is a bit too harsh.

 

 

[jusarrived]

13 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

Your batting strategy should be based on your batting line up not based on Pakistan's batting line up. Hasan Ali can come down the order and can score a 50 Can Bumrah do that?  Unless you can be certain it is worth taking risk in the first 10 overs for an extra 20 runs, it is way too risky to be adventurous for a fragile line up like ours.  Pandya is highly effective when he comes somewhere after 35 overs. Morgan/Stokes/Root are not that great? They are like 100 times better than our middle order. Then they have Ali who can bat, Rashid who can bat, Woakes cho can bat, Archer who can bat. It will be Delhi collapso team. Every single wicket is precious for us upto 45th over. Risks should be calculated. INspite of all the weaknesses you are talking about India has the second highest run rate in the last 2 yeasr at 5.69. England 6.27 (including today's match). But to counter that India on an average concedes 5.09 runs per over. England gives away 5.82 runs per over. Net difference is better for India

So our openers play without any intent cos 9 batsmen following them are useless , then why do we hate Dhoni who comes in at 3 or 4 down and starts blocking ? Does it get easier with only 5 useless bats to follow ?

I could also argue that our middle order is made to look worse than they are cos of our poor top order which sucks the momentum out of the innings and cos of poor lower order there is always pressure of being a wicket away from collapsing. 

 

As for comparing with Pakistan , have you seen their middle order ? bunch of unknowns followed by Sarfaraz  ..we are giving some lame excuses for our top orders

[jusarrived]

14 hours ago, zen said:

We  cannot mess up Ind’s total to play a 3 figure knock in 1 out of 13 inning, which no one cares for  

 

And the  data is available on this thread on how others have performed. Additionally on good batting pitches, there is no reason to assume others will fail .... and who asked Ind to select Dhoni if he is so bad

 

Note Viv Richards is a consistent performer vs major teams in world events. Rohit has performed like a tail ender (vs major teams)

 

Ind does not need a night watchman in ODIs esp. on such surfaces. If Rohit cannot set the tone and hope to hit a quick 100 on such surfaces, he should bat lower down or Ind should play someone else!

 

 

The Pakistani opening pair gets one every 6 innings between them lol and I think Fakar/Imam are pretty average . 

As for this theory of Sharma playing slow for the team , somehow it dosent apply to Dhawan .. the poor guy has to take all the risks even when hes out of form 

[rkt.india]

19 hours ago, Austin 3:!6 said:

In Asif Ali, they found a good lower order striker.

but is not picked for WC.

[Austin 3:!6]

but is not picked for WC.

Asif Ali in world cup squad I think. If not, surely will be picked based on this performance. Till 23rd May teams can change their squad. Hope India also includes Pant and Saini/Ishant before that.

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[rkt.india]

19 hours ago, zen said:

Which is extremely difficult to do for him on current capabilities vs. major teams .... so that ends the story .... either play normal cricket or make way for a younger batsman 

 

PS Talking about random numbers, 165/3 after 15 > 165/3 after 35 overs. MO is likely to get a higher total in the first scenario as it can play itself in 

how many times have we seen 165 in 25 in a 50 over match.  You dont go by improbable situations.

[rkt.india]

7 minutes ago, Austin 3:!6 said:

Asif Ali in world cup squad I think. If not, surely will be picked based on this performance. Till 23rd May teams can change their squad. Hope India also includes Pant and Saini/Ishant before that.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
 

No, he isnt.  Squad has already been picked.  Aamir is excluded as well.

[Moochad]

They're used to having their top order implode, so their lower order gets experience.

 

Our top 3 hide our lower order from exposure and development.

[vvvslaxman]

1 hour ago, jusarrived said:

So our openers play without any intent cos 9 batsmen following them are useless , then why do we hate Dhoni who comes in at 3 or 4 down and starts blocking ? Does it get easier with only 5 useless bats to follow ?

I could also argue that our middle order is made to look worse than they are cos of our poor top order which sucks the momentum out of the innings and cos of poor lower order there is always pressure of being a wicket away from collapsing. 

 

As for comparing with Pakistan , have you seen their middle order ? bunch of unknowns followed by Sarfaraz  ..we are giving some lame excuses for our top orders

NOt blocking 50/0 vs 70/2 may not mean much for other teams. But for India that is huge. The reason is our middle order is not exactly good enough to either rotate strike or play big shots either. Our middle order cannot be made to look worse or better. They have been exposed to different scenarios. They did do jack. First and foremost reason is India was constantly telling us Rayudu was going to be our no.4.  That is where things started falling apart. He bullied Afghanistan, Hongkong and went AWOL against better teams. Till now we don't know who is going to bat at no.4. We tried KKD, Pandya, Rahane, Yuvraj, Dhoni, Pandey, Rahul, Jadhav, Pant. A crucial position that is being held by guys like Taylor, Shaun Marsh, Morgan for other teams. Taylor has made 1830 runs at an average of 76 at no.4 position in the last 2 years. Rahim, Morgan always average well over 50 during that period raking up over 1000 runs at no.4. 

 

Then we have Dhoni. You cannot possibly spoil Dhoni anymore. He was not exactly setting the world ablaze in 2015 world cup. We were hoping that was going to be his last world cup. But inept Kohli needs someone to hold his hand. We had to accommodate this old man. 

 

Next is Jadhav. Jadhav has been presented with many different scenarios over the last couple of years. 40 innings grand total of 5 fifties. Lot of low scores. You cannot trust this guy one bit.

 

You cannot ruin these guys by batting slow or fast. They are already crap. Pandya is the only one guy who makes the most of what he gets. He showed in the IPL even in 7 or 8 overs he could change the game on his own. Karthik's strike rate at no.4 is slow even by 1970s standard. It is like 71. Pandey's strike rate 57. Rahul's strike rate at no.4 is 59. Rahane 76. Dhoni 78.  Even the aging Yuvi had a strike rate of 86 at that spot. Better than these guys. We backed the wrong horses to begin with. 

 

Other than Pandya all our batsmen operate at 75 to 90 strike rate mostly. They are not going to play any different if our openers get 20 extra runs in the power play. If anything they will go even slower.  Part of the reason is extremely weak tail. I don't blame our middle order or top order not taking too many risks because we could go from 250/5 at 40th over to 270 all out in no time.  

 

We are not a strong batting side anymore. High time we realize that. SUre we have dynamic, dazzling players in domestic cricket. But we can play only XI players. 4 bowlers/2 all rounders/ 1 keeper/ 4 batsmen. We cannot win a battathon. Only way we can win a battathon is when the top 3 goes big. In each 300 plus successful chases atleast one of the top had to go big.  Gun batting sides don't get fazed when they lose the openers. Our team will. If Kohli also goes we are pretty much done.

Edited May 15, 2019 by vvvslaxman