Saha likely to be preferred over Pant for the 1st Test vs SA

[Moochad]

1 hour ago, Tibarn said:

He literally tells you he plans to play horses for courses in batting and bowling. What do you expect? Most of the spots in the team are up for competition under him. 

And that is a flawed policy, for batting at least. Pick a few players, give them a long run, and then drop them.

 

1 hour ago, Tibarn said:

It is apparently not realistic that some players have to earn spots in a playing XI and have to perform to keep the spot. It's like people don't watch any other team sports besides cricket. In pretty much any team sport, from the NFL to NBA, young players are required to earn their chances for playing time whether at practice or when they get a chance in actual games. In baseball young players regularly move between the minor leagues and the major. 

I think the argument is that Pant has earned the spot with his recent performances. He has shown enough potential to have the spot.

1 hour ago, Tibarn said:

The amount of whinging and conspiracy theories on this forum is toxic. It feels like a Bakistani forum sometimes.

I agree with that

Edited October 2, 2019 by Moochad

[Tibarn]

41 minutes ago, Moochad said:

And that is a flawed policy, for batting at least. Pick a few players, give them a long run, and then drop them.

Then criticize him for that, who is stopping anyone?  

 

However, he tells you that Saha is playing because of his superior keeping and the playing conditions. He also tells you that Saha was always the first-choice pure keeper. They were only waiting for a chance to ease him back into the lineup.

 

Quote

 

From where did people get the idea that Pant sealed the spot and is now getting dropped? According to the captain himself, Pant was getting opportunities because Saha was injured and then they thought he earned some more playing time.  Now the situation arises where they want a better pure keeper, so Saha is coming back in. He also mentions the conditions playing a factor. It's perfectly possible that Pant will return for NZ. 

 

Just wait for the moronic conspiracy theories to come up now. 

41 minutes ago, Moochad said:

I think the argument is that Pant has earned the spot with his recent performances. He has shown enough potential to have the spot

People can say that, that is their opinion.

 

I said both have a case for selection. That saying both have cases to play triggers some of these moronic fanboys is a them problem.   

Edited October 2, 2019 by Tibarn

[Number]

This is another fiasco by Kim Jong Kohli.

 

[Straight Drive]

Shocking that he has been dropped.

[express bowling]

4 hours ago, Moochad said:

Judging by the forum's mood, if Pant is exiled for 14 years, half the posters will cheer for Pakistan.

 

I think most people on this forum are disappointed by the treatment meted out to talented youngsters in general and bringing in 30+ TTFs or past their prime good players  ( Saha isn't a TTF though but a very good keeper ).

 

Parthiv Patel, Dinesh Karthick, Ambati Rayudu, Rohit the test player all made comebacks. Dhoni keeps on playing. Old Yuvi and Old Gambhir made comebacks too.

 

While Kuldeep, Pant, Siraj, Nair etc. keep on getting dropped at the slightest pretext and some of them get criticized in public. Youngsters get introduced to international cricket via T20s even if they are strongest in the 5 day format ... like Saini and Siraj.

 

Apart from Bumrah ( and Hardik because he is the only proper pacer all-rounder available ) ... not a single youngster has been able to prosper under this regime. 

[Moochad]

5 minutes ago, express bowling said:

I think most people on this forum are disappointed by the treatment meted out to talented youngsters in general and bringing in 30+ TTFs or past their prime good players  ( Saha isn't a TTF though but a very good keeper ).

Parthiv Patel, Dinesh Karthick, Ambati Rayudu, Rohit the test player all made comebacks. Dhoni keeps on playing. Old Yuvi and Old Gambhir made comebacks too.

 

While Kuldeep, Pant, Siraj, Nair etc. keep on getting dropped at the slightest pretext and some of them get criticized in public. Youngsters get introduced to international cricket via T20s even if they are strongest in the 5 day format ... like Saini and Siraj.

 

Apart from Bumrah ( and Hardik because he is the only proper pacer all-rounder available ) ... not a single youngster has been able to prosper under this regime. 

I agree with you. I am also upset that Pant isn't playing as I favour Pant playing this series, even though I don't blindly hate Saha like some of the posters in this thread. I was only poking fun at some of the hyperbolic statements made by a few. I think I read someone wants India to lose this series. I think that is too far. 

 

I think the issue of introducing players via t20, even if they aren't good in that format, has been an issue for a long time in our cricket. We always keep the same core across formats, so the selectors try to introduce them in the easier t20 and odi formats. 

 

I especially agree in terms of the limited overs format when talking about youngsters establishing themselves, but I feel this is again a long time issue. An example is how many times players like Yuvraj came back even when he was in poor form, like WT20 2014. Or older players staying past their expiry date like Dhoni and Sachin. It is endemic to our cricketing culture. We struggle to even separate captaincy between the formats. 

 

If we only talk about Test cricket under the current regime. I don't think there has been much need for young players. A lot of the core of our team was there under Dhoni as youngsters and Virat ultimately now leads them as they are in the prime of their career. Vijay-Dhawan-Kohli-Pujara-Rahane-Rohit Ahswin-Jadeja-Shami-Ishant-BK-Umesh were all young/new parts of our test team under Dhoni, and now we are seeing what their capability is under Kohli. That is the bulk of our squad even today.  Now with players like Vijay and Dhawan out of contention, we are in search of a new openers. Saha is a short term option at WK with Pant the favourite to take over. Bumrah is there. Basically, I don't think there was many openings in the side when Kohli took over. I think we can more fairly judge his treatment of youngsters in Tests as players from the inherited Test squad are phased out. If not for his suspension Shaw would be playing imo, and Vihari and Agarwal are there. We will see how long Kohli will persist with them if they go through a bad patch. These are some of the first players that he is hand selecting. 

[Tibarn]

8 hours ago, Moochad said:

If we only talk about Test cricket under the current regime. I don't think there has been much need for young players. A lot of the core of our team was there under Dhoni as youngsters and Virat ultimately now leads them as they are in the prime of their career. Vijay-Dhawan-Kohli-Pujara-Rahane-Rohit Ahswin-Jadeja-Shami-Ishant-BK-Umesh were all young/new parts of our test team under Dhoni, and now we are seeing what their capability is under Kohli. That is the bulk of our squad even today.  Now with players like Vijay and Dhawan out of contention, we are in search of a new openers. Saha is a short term option at WK with Pant the favourite to take over. Bumrah is there. Basically, I don't think there was many openings in the side when Kohli took over. I think we can more fairly judge his treatment of youngsters in Tests as players from the inherited Test squad are phased out. If not for his suspension Shaw would be playing imo, and Vihari and Agarwal are there. We will see how long Kohli will persist with them if they go through a bad patch. These are some of the first players that he is hand selecting. 

I think you made a great point there. This is why I said we shouldn't conflate the Test and LOI formats.

 

List of all our series and results

http://www.howstat.com/cricket/Statistics/Series/SeriesListCountry.asp

The reality is, like you said, that those players you listed had debuted under Dhoni and had their first tours abroad under him. We played 4 consecutive overseas tours to SENA where that was basically the team,  immediately after our last home series for over a year, the series where Sachin retired. 

 

We followed that with not playing outside of Asia almost exclusively until the very end of 2017. That is over 2 years of playing in Asia exclusively, with only a 2 Test tour of Windies breaking that up. We didn't tour SA until mid 2018, and had our England and Australia tours that same year. 

 

By playing at home, none of the players really failed, except for Rahane, and Rahane was the one batsman who succeeded in all the SENA countries during his debut series. There wasn't really a justifiable reason to drop most of the core players, except a loss of ability/form due to age. If players like Pujara underwhelm on their first tours overseas in some countries, is it really sensible to drop them without seeing if they can improve the second go-round?

 

13 hours ago, Moochad said:

And that is a flawed policy, for batting at least. Pick a few players, give them a long run, and then drop them.

You are far more optimistic for Kohli's captaincy than me. I think Pant will return the moment Saha fails, or even drops a catch. In my opinion he chops and changes players too much.

 

Here are the players who have gotten their Test caps under Kohli

Quote

3-keepers(Ohja, Pant)

3-openers (Rahul, Agarwal, Shaw)

2-pacers(Bumrah, Thakur)

3-spinners(Karn, Jayant, Kuldeep)

2-lower order batsmen (Nair, Vihari)

1- allrounder (Pandya)

 

That's 13 debutantes of which the 9 bolded players are either playing, in the squad, injured (Pandya), or were only recently excluded (Rahul) 

 

The new players can only be selected to fill holes we actually have in the side or to replace players who are underperforming.  

 

For the keeper spot, Saha beat out Ohja. Parthiv and DK only returned due to injury to Saha. There was never any indication that either of those two were long term options. Pant, once the selectors determined he showed promise, was included in the squad and is the short-term competition and long-term replacement for Saha. From Kohli's own words, Saha is the best pure wicket-keeper in the world and was always the preferred option.Pant replaced him because he was injured.  

 

The openers are where we are struggling to get settled.  Dhawan and Vijay were both eventually dropped out of it due to form/age. Rahul debuted under Kohli,  who people were saying was one of the most talented batsmen in India and had a great technique. Rahul has played 36 matches as an opener, but he averages less than 35 after all these matches, so only after 36 matches has Rahul been excluded from the squad. Shaw debuted, but he took a banned substance and has been suspended by the BCCI. Agarwal is only on his 5th test. Gambhir came in the place of Rahul when he was injured, but, again, that was a temporary thing. 

 

The spinners, Kuldeep in particular, has to show they are better than Ashwin/Jadeja, two of the statistically most dominant spinners in Asia, and both provide batting depth when overseas.  We play 0-1 spinner overseas and 2-3 at home, depending on the pitches. 

 

Bumrah has become our spearhead. Any new pacer has to show more ability than both Shami and Ishant, both of who have won matches for us overseas recently, and, in Shami's case, at home as well. We have the most complete fast bowling unit in the world(I will say bowling overall as well with Ash/Jaddu). Who should be replaced of the three? 

 

The criticism regarding Nair is unfair unless someone also doesn't support Pandya's inclusion into the side.  Nair, Vihari, and Pandya all compete for the same position in the team, even though the latter is an allrounder. They would all basically take the number 6 slot. One can ask why didn't Nair get more chances after scoring a triple, but then it is unlikely we would have ever seen Pandya in the side. One couldn't play both Nair and Pandya without kicking out either Pujara, Rahane, or a bowler  

 

Nair plays 6 home matches, then we play in overseas conditions in SL, SA, and England, where Pandya takes his spot and debuts as an allrounder. Pandya plays 11 matches, only 1 of which is at home. Then Pandya is replaced when we see our batting is weak in England and Australia, by another debutante in Vihari, who is currently in the side for his 7th match and who batted well in his limited opportunities so far.    

The only player that really gets repeated endlessly in Tests is Rohit, but Rohit is considered the gods' gift to Indian cricket it seems. One will never see former or current Indian players say negative stuff about him. If he fails as opener, India will find a way to play him as a front-line spinner  

 

In limited overs, the case is different. There are plenty of holes in the lineup, but he hasn't been able to even discover a number 4 or 5 batsman, he continues with a player who can't take wickets in BK, repeats failures like Yuvraj in the CT, etc etc.