Why has India been unable to produce another decent finisher in LOIs?

[TNAmarkFromIndia]

8 minutes ago, zen said:

Are we not talking about batting here  

Point remains the same.

[zen]

1 minute ago, TNAmarkFromIndia said:

Point remains the same.

Yes, this is a dumb thread

[Nikola]

What kind of repetitive signature video is this? admins should keep option to hide for users or just remove that sig of user.

[Global.Baba]

The thread reflects the problem we have with the line of thinking in our cricket today.
 

There are a few things we need to be clear while understanding cricket.

 

1.There is nothing called a “specialist finisher”

 

2.There is nothing called a “specialist power hitter”

 

3.There is nothing called a “specialist allrounder”

 

Point 1 and 2: A good well round batsman will automatically check points 1 and 2. 
 

I think when we talk about  finishers Bevan,Dhoni,Yuvraj are the names  commonly  thrown around.

 

Bevan was identified as an all format player. He had a mediocre test record, but found his calling in ODIs. He was not a power hitter but he found a slot at 5-6-7 in the competitive Aussie middle order.
 

It just so happened that he had a great acumen for the game and got Australia over the line in some tense games. Did he do anything against  the template for any cricketer in  that situation when the team has had a top order collapse or a team is playing to get to a target?

 

I never get this argument oh they are the tail or they play that way. If you are trying to draw the game or go for big hits doesn’t matter if youare no.1 or no.11 you have to try according to the situation. Period.

 

Bevan or the other so called finishers  played clever ,intelligent cricket that every player with common sense  is supposed to play in such a situation.
 

Difference is he was better than others  and had a good resume of work in such situations. This was discovered later on and he wasn’t trained to be such a specialist.

 

Was Dravid a finisher? He and Yuvraj got  us over the line in a tense situation in the  Pak game in 2003. Why isn’t Dravid called a finisher?

 

Rohit and Kohli have finished a lot of games, why aren’t they called finishers?

 

A good batsman adjusts anywhere for  a team.
 

Was Sehwag a “specialist opener”? Rahul has played some cameos in the middle order, is he a specialist “power hitter”? No they are just good talented players who can play according to situation.

 

Dhoni’s break out moment happened when he batted no.3, was he a specialist no.3. He later played as the “so called finisher”

 

The point is you pick  a good all round player he can morph into anything. A finisher, A power hitter, A stabilizer etc etc.

 

Yuvraj and Raina were picked for their talent as batsmen not for some specialized power hitting and finishing skills.

 

Jadhav looked good in the 15 ball 25 the other day but looked clueless when he came in a situation where he was going to build a partnership. Should we excuse Jadhav because he can only play in one situation?

 

You pick the best X1 talent batting or bowling and give them roles rather than finding such specialists.

 

Point 3: Same goes for allrounders. The greatest allrounders ever were picked for 1 skill set and it so happened that they were good in the other facets of the game.

 

Sure if there is a tie between 2 players knocking down the door of selection, you can justify picking one over the other on fielding and bowling ability but you don’t Pick a player overlooking others just because he can do a little bit of this or that.

 

This is why we pick crap players like Dube,Shankar,Jadhav etc. based on this kind of thinking. We even have fans for these types.

 

 

[rkt.india]

2 hours ago, TNAmarkFromIndia said:

So if Dhoni, Yuvraj, Raina didn't average that much in domestic then no one can? 

 

There are many top order players in India with high average. Why don't we have many middle order bats with high average?

There is a higher chance of remaining not out batting in the middle order though. Dhoni made a career out of it.

On good Indian pitches, middle or lower middle order batsmen only get chance when top order collapses on a tough pitch or when you have few overs to score quickly in slog overs. Not easy to average 50 in both situation. Top order batsmen are so good these days. Middle order bats hardly get to bat on flat pitches. This is the same issue with Indian team these days. Top order bats Rohit, Dhawan, Kohli are so consistent, middle and lower middle order hardly get to bat. Likes of Tendulkar, Ganguly, sehwag, dravid were never this good top order.

[TNAmarkFromIndia]

15 minutes ago, zen said:

Yes, this is a dumb thread

No it's not. The thread is about why we aren't producing finishers in domestic and you're arguing about turning top order batsmen into middle order bats.

[RajBan]

8 minutes ago, Global.Baba said:

The thread reflects the problem we have with the line of thinking in our cricket today.
 

There are a few things we need to be clear while understanding cricket.

 

1.There is nothing called a “specialist finisher”

 

2.There is nothing called a “specialist power hitter”

 

3.There is nothing called a “specialist allrounder”

 

Point 1 and 2: A good well round batsman will automatically check points 1 and 2. 
 

I think when we talk about  finishers Bevan,Dhoni,Yuvraj are the names  commonly  thrown around.

 

Bevan was identified as an all format player. He had a mediocre test record, but found his calling in ODIs. He was not a power hitter but he found a slot at 5-6-7 in the competitive Aussie middle order.
 

It just so happened that he had a great acumen for the game and got Australia over the line in some tense games. Did he do anything against  the template for any cricketer in  that situation when the team has had a top order collapse or a team is playing to get to a target?

 

I never get this argument oh they are the tail or they play that way. If you are trying to draw the game or go for big hits doesn’t matter if youare no.1 or no.11 you have to try according to the situation. Period.

 

Bevan or the other so called finishers  played clever ,intelligent cricket that every player with common sense  is supposed to play in such a situation.
 

Difference is he was better than others  and had a good resume of work in such situations. This was discovered later on and he wasn’t trained to be such a specialist.

 

Was Dravid a finisher? He and Yuvraj got  us over the line in a tense situation in the  Pak game in 2003. Why isn’t Dravid called a finisher?

 

Rohit and Kohli have finished a lot of games, why aren’t they called finishers?

 

A good batsman adjusts anywhere for  a team.
 

Was Sehwag a “specialist opener”? Rahul has played some cameos in the middle order, is he a specialist “power hitter”? No they are just good talented players who can play according to situation.

 

Dhoni’s break out moment happened when he batted no.3, was he a specialist no.3. He later played as the “so called finisher”

 

The point is you pick  a good all round player he can morph into anything. A finisher, A power hitter, A stabilizer etc etc.

 

Yuvraj and Raina were picked for their talent as batsmen not for some specialized power hitting and finishing skills.

 

Jadhav looked good in the 15 ball 25 the other day but looked clueless when he came in a situation where he was going to build a partnership. Should we excuse Jadhav because he can only play in one situation?

 

You pick the best X1 talent batting or bowling and give them roles rather than finding such specialists.

 

Point 3: Same goes for allrounders. The greatest allrounders ever were picked for 1 skill set and it so happened that they were good in the other facets of the game.

 

Sure if there is a tie between 2 players knocking down the door of selection, you can justify picking one over the other on fielding and bowling ability but you don’t Pick a player overlooking others just because he can do a little bit of this or that.

 

This is why we pick crap players like Dube,Shankar,Jadhav etc. based on this kind of thinking. We even have fans for these types.

 

 

You have hit some great points here. I am not sure there are too many takers of such well rounded thought process. Most of the ideas are linear that opener can only open and MO batsman can only play in MO. That's why you see that when KL is playing wonderful at 5 , some of the cricket experts and even posters here are not able to grasp that idea regardless of the fact that it is providing  the team a better balance without necessarily reducing utility of KL but at the same time opening a slot for Mayank or Shaw who may be more suited there and can do a equally good job opening the innings but can't necessarily do what KL is doing at 5.(Remember not every talented batsman can adapt to multiple positions)

[zen]

6 minutes ago, TNAmarkFromIndia said:

No it's not. The thread is about why we aren't producing finishers in domestic and you're arguing about turning top order batsmen into middle order bats.

Ok buddy, i will bow out of the discussion .... let us know when you get what you are seeking in List A averages 

[Ankit_sharma03]

1 hour ago, TNAmarkFromIndia said:

You don't have to always hit from 1st ball. Middle order batting is a lot more than just big hitting. A lot of it is calculative, both while putting up a target and while chasing. Being able to keep the scoreboard ticking and knowing when and how to take the calculated risk.

Middle order has time not lower middle order. 1st ball doesnt literally mean 1st ball buts its like within 5-6 balls. 

Calculation comes with experience which wont come unless TM lets someone get settled n become experienced

[Global.Baba]

1 minute ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Middle order has time not lower middle order. 1st ball doesnt literally mean 1st ball buts its like within 5-6 balls. 

Calculation comes with experience which wont come unless TM lets someone get settled n become experienced

You need skill too. Guys like Lara, Kohli have done that early in their careers as well.

 

Also Calculation with experience is knowing which bowler to attack or which length is your strength etc etc that might come with more game time but not the basic common sense of how to approach a target.

 

You give a guy will all rounded skills a shot not bits and pieces players who can only play one way

[TNAmarkFromIndia]

33 minutes ago, Global.Baba said:

Point 1 and 2: A good well round batsman will automatically check points 1 and 2. 

That is just not true. Neither will every "good batsman" be able to adapt to every position nor does not being able to adapt to any position make one a bad batsman. Case in point being Shubman Gill. KKR batted him at 6 and he couldn't do very well. They sent him to open and he immediately did very well. Does not being able to do well at 6 not make him a "good batsman"?

 

Certain players are just better suited for certain positions, no matter how good they are. You just can't try to push a square peg into a round hole and expect it to fit.

[raki05]

3 hours ago, TNAmarkFromIndia said:

So if Dhoni, Yuvraj, Raina didn't average that much in domestic then no one can? 

 

There are many top order players in India with high average. Why don't we have many middle order bats with high average?

There is a higher chance of remaining not out batting in the middle order though. Dhoni made a career out of it.

We already have jadhav if your only criteria is avging 50 batsmen in middle order. He has that in both domestic and very close to that in international. One more was Rayadu who was avging 50. Hopefully you would be happy if they both play together in middle order.

[TNAmarkFromIndia]

13 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Middle order has time not lower middle order. 1st ball doesnt literally mean 1st ball buts its like within 5-6 balls. 

Again, that's where calculative cricket comes into play. It doesn't have to be all big hits but also knowing where the fielders are and playing accordingly. Playing over the in-field, cheeky shots behind the wickets and the quick ones and twos. Obviously this is all easier said than done, but it's just surprising that we when so many top order batsman score big runs every year, we don't have middle order batsman developing reputation as a finisher even after Yuvraj, Dhoni, Raina as inspiration.

 

20 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Calculation comes with experience which wont come unless TM lets someone get settled n become experienced

I'm not talking about internationals. I'm talking about domestic one-dayers.

[Global.Baba]

10 minutes ago, TNAmarkFromIndia said:

That is just not true. Neither will every "good batsman" be able to adapt to every position nor does not being able to adapt to any position make one a bad batsman. Case in point being Shubman Gill. KKR batted him at 6 and he couldn't do very well. They sent him to open and he immediately did very well. Does not being able to do well at 6 not make him a "good batsman"?

 

Certain players are just better suited for certain positions, no matter how good they are. You just can't try to push a square peg into a round hole and expect it to fit.

Sachin started off at 5-6, moves to open, bats at 4 in tests.

 

Kohli bats 3 in ODIs, 4 in tests

 

Rohit Sharma,Sehwag middle order players finding success as openers

 

Rahul showing flashes of brilliance in middle order

 

Dhoni becomes a star at 3. Later on earns reputation as a finisher.

 

Yuvi is identified as the next big Top 3-4 batsman for India, does well at 5-6.

 

Try sending Dube or even Hardik in a 70/4 or 5 situation, they won’t last.

 

If a batsman cannot adapt then he is limited. It’s the Tm and captain to give roles to the talent, not identify specialist talents.

[zen]

7 minutes ago, Global.Baba said:

If a batsman cannot adapt then he is limited. It’s the Tm and captain to give roles to the talent, not identify specialist talents.

So for the team, will the talented Rohit adapt in the MO  to free up the top order spot for other youngsters and also strengthen the MO with his experience?

Edited February 9, 2020 by zen

[Global.Baba]

Just now, zen said:

So Can Rohit adapt in the MO?

Of course he can. He plays in that role for Mi. The last few times Mi won IPL he batted at 4.

 

His breakout knocks in WT20 and CB series were in the middle order.

 

However he has been assigned a role and he has excelled in it and became the best, why mess up a winning formula.

 

The point I am making is in fact you made it earlier too that a kid who looks like a special talent be it Jaiswal or Gill can or should adapt to the available slot. Playing for India should not be offered on a platter, it’s a special privilege. If these kids cannot than get someone else who can grab it. Picking a useless player because he fits criteria’s demeans Indian cap.

 

 

[TNAmarkFromIndia]

7 minutes ago, Global.Baba said:

Sachin started off at 5-6, moves to open, bats at 4 in tests.

Kohli bats 3 in ODIs, 4 in tests

Rohit Sharma,Sehwag middle order players finding success as openers

Rahul showing flashes of brilliance in middle order

Dhoni becomes a star at 3. Later on earns reputation as a finisher.

Yuvi is identified as the next big Top 3-4 batsman for India, does well at 5-6.

Try sending Dube or even Hardik in a 70/4 or 5 situation, they won’t last.

If a batsman cannot adapt then he is limited. It’s the Tm and captain to give roles to the talent, not identify specialist talents.

I'm not talking about Tests. I'm talking about LOIs. In Tests, I think you can pretty much have 6 top order batsman in the line-up. LOIs is a different story.

 

Also, I'm not talking about a handful of innings like you're giving examples of. I don't know anyone who thinks Sachin had great success at 5/6, neither were Sharma and Sehwag considered successful middle order batsmen. Similarly, we don't know yet if Rahul is a good middle order batsman yet. For one, he's barely played any games. For another, he hasn't proven himself in the middle order while chasing.

[Ankit_sharma03]

22 minutes ago, TNAmarkFromIndia said:

Again, that's where calculative cricket comes into play. It doesn't have to be all big hits but also knowing where the fielders are and playing accordingly. Playing over the in-field, cheeky shots behind the wickets and the quick ones and twos. Obviously this is all easier said than done, but it's just surprising that we when so many top order batsman score big runs every year, we don't have middle order batsman developing reputation as a finisher even after Yuvraj, Dhoni, Raina as inspiration.

Will come with time and experience and once u identify players and tell them we are looking at u for that role they work on it as of now most potential players bat up the order in their domestic sides 

22 minutes ago, TNAmarkFromIndia said:

I'm not talking about internationals. I'm talking about domestic one-dayers.

sky does that for his team - have we given him a chance ??

DK did it well in t20s but wasnt given a chance in t20s 

We give a chance to dube it didnt work 

[Ankit_sharma03]

41 minutes ago, Global.Baba said:

You need skill too. Guys like Lara, Kohli have done that early in their careers as well.

What matches did kohli won early in his career lower down the order....most games he won was when he got his batting early

41 minutes ago, Global.Baba said:

Also Calculation with experience is knowing which bowler to attack or which length is your strength etc etc that might come with more game time but not the basic common sense of how to approach a target.

 

You give a guy will all rounded skills a shot not bits and pieces players who can only play one way

this defination of bits n pieces is what ppl have no idea about for eg many like u life in geoff boycott days that dont understand concept of power hitter. Now ull say see dube failed but thats with every specialist also 100% success wont be ever there. For every dube their is a pandya as well and neither is his career over. 

 

Ppl need to get the defination of bits n pieces right . And 90% of players doesnt come with all round skills....many dont have one area of shots, many dont have good defense, many dont have variation in bowling, many dont have maturity so what all round skills. Even someone like yuvraj singh when he came was extremely poor against spin. 

[Ankit_sharma03]

2 hours ago, TNAmarkFromIndia said:

Iyer, Pandey, Dube, Shankar etc. all bat in the middle order even in domestic.

yes but dig deep in the names n see the issue

 

• Shankar was made to bat at 6,7 in some games not his strength and he got the lashing on 2 failures in Wc before that everyone was impressed with him. Mind u just 2 games
• Iyer has done well , with experience he ll learn to finish games
• Pandey like rahane was never comfortable against slow bowling in middle overs which is why the minute he came back from australia to subcontinent his runs dried
• Dube got found out which even raina got after some intial success n got dropped