Why has India been unable to produce another decent finisher in LOIs?

[TNAmarkFromIndia]

 

Please read the entire post before replying.

 

In the mid-2000s, more than the top order, it was our middle order that used to win us games. Yuvraj, Dhoni, Raina won us many games in that period. But since their decline, we haven't been able to produce another finisher with the exception of Kohli who plays in the top order.

 

Why is that? Why are almost all the top batsmen that are in discussion in domestic cricket right now top order batsmen? Why don't we have batsmen in domestic cricket who have developed a reputation of finishing games? Why don't we have batsmen at 4, 5 or 6 averaging 50+ in List A cricket? Why have the likes of Yuvraj, Dhoni not been able to inspire the new generation of middle order LOI batsmen in the "IPL era"? Do we play too few 50-over games in domestic cricket? Is the art of finishing games so difficult that it cannot be developed at the domestic level? Are coaches at the domestic level not giving as much importance to it as they should?

[Ankit_sharma03]

Many reasons-  to start you dont get yuvraj n dhoni every day . 

1. Everyone wants to bat in top 3 as the cake in LOI is in top 3
2. Skill set- Its no easy to come n start hitting from ball 1 which is what those guys could do. A reason hardik pandya has a huge value coz he cud do it .
3. Another Part of the skill is maturity and experience while finishing. Dhoni when came in the team had a mature head on his shoulder. 
4. Lack of Patience- Public, Media n TM needs to have patience with such players as when u bat down u cant be consistent specially when u have to hit from ball 1 every day. Pant has been a blast in IPL at 4 n 5 yet no patience shown to him and he find himself on bench after performing in last series. 
5. Identifying right player- right players needs to be identified for this role and be told that is what they ll do so they can plan acc to it. We have wasted 7 games on Jadhav till now. We tried to make shankar a finisher when it wasnt his strong point. Only credit i can give this team is atleast they gave Dube a fair chance
6. Our top 3 have been so consistent that 5,6,7 gets a chance like twice in 10 games and to expect them to perform in those  games is to much.
7. Not taking brave calls - DK wud have been a good finishers in t20s but TM was scared to look beyond dhoni. SKY shud have been tried till now but we havent instead manish pandey is playing at 6 ( he has done fine but is he the answer ??) 

[The Dark Horse]

They didn't allow anyone to settle down. They (Kohli and TM) were making sure there is no alternative to Dhoni.

[TNAmarkFromIndia]

4 minutes ago, The Dark Horse said:

They didn't allow anyone to settle down.

My question is why there isn't anyone in domestic averaging 50/60 in middle order in List A?

[rkt.india]

14 minutes ago, TNAmarkFromIndia said:

My question is why there isn't anyone in domestic averaging 50/60 in middle order in List A?

Was Dhoni averaging 50-60 in domestic or raina or yuvraj?

[Ankit_sharma03]

19 minutes ago, TNAmarkFromIndia said:

My question is why there isn't anyone in domestic averaging 50/60 in middle order in List A?

Batsman who bat low will hardly avg that much. 

And list A are not well organised , so many times played on awfull pitches. 

Look just at domestic stats is dangerous 

[TNAmarkFromIndia]

35 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Was Dhoni averaging 50-60 in domestic or raina or yuvraj?

So if Dhoni, Yuvraj, Raina didn't average that much in domestic then no one can? 

 

There are many top order players in India with high average. Why don't we have many middle order bats with high average?

29 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Batsman who bat low will hardly avg that much. 

There is a higher chance of remaining not out batting in the middle order though. Dhoni made a career out of it.

[Ajju]

Finishers coming in indian team but they could nt able to match Dhoni so everybody getting as assumption that no one has finishing ability.

 

tailpiece is that there is only one Dhoni and he is not playing now

Edited February 9, 2020 by Ajju

[express bowling]

I think the biggest reason is that, after the advent of T20s, no promising growing up as a cricketer wants to bat below No.3 ... because they would get very few balls to play.

 

And this habit if batting in the top 3 is seeking into the 50 over format too.

 

The only way is to send some big hitting top quality top order batter to bat at 5 and 6 ... and get used to it.

 

We are doing it with Rahul now ... if we can persist with him at 5 in ODIs, he can be the next good finisher.

[Vk1]

there is no sync between the domestic, A team and  our national team. They just play to win or to boost numbers and in the process provide few players with promise and stats for national team

Has any domestic team ever been told to groom players for any particular role ? 

Edited February 9, 2020 by Vk1

[zen]

The premise of the thread is that someone has to bat at 4,5, and 6 in domestics to do the same in international level when national teams picks the best talent available and slot them in appropriate roles. If you do not have good openers, MO batsmen are asked to open in national team and vice versa 

 

If Yuvraj did not play in the time of Tendulkar-Sehwag,  he could have played in top order to for India. Raina bats at #3 for his IPL team. 

The more relevant question is who should be slotted in the MO. If we have such good talent that can play in the top order,  can guys like Kohli and/or Rohit, who have gained enough experience drop down? Those are the strategic options that need to be evaluated. Good batsmen once they gain sufficient international experience should be able to adjust their game and also make an effort to groom youngsters 

 

Ganguly dropped down to make Sehwag open. Richards played in MO once guys like Ritchie Richardson emerged. Gilly was sent to open by Aus. That is how teams are developed. 

 

[TNAmarkFromIndia]

22 minutes ago, express bowling said:

I think the biggest reason is that, after the advent of T20s, no promising growing up as a cricketer wants to bat below No.3 ... because they would get very few balls to play.

But everyone has a role in the team. Why haven't the players currently batting in middle order in domestic cricket been good enough to develop their game as a finisher? They may not be the best batsman in the team, but they could be the ones with the highest averages because of unbeaten innings.

[Ankit_sharma03]

57 minutes ago, TNAmarkFromIndia said:

So if Dhoni, Yuvraj, Raina didn't average that much in domestic then no one can? 

 

There are many top order players in India with high average. Why don't we have many middle order bats with high average?

There is a higher chance of remaining not out batting in the middle order though. Dhoni made a career out of it.

Dhoni was damn consistent as well it was not just not out. Playing a game where u have to hit from 1st ball will mostly result in inconsistency....dhoni n few wud be rare examples look at raina n yuvi avg. 

[TNAmarkFromIndia]

3 minutes ago, zen said:

The premise of the thread is that someone has to bat at 4,5, and 6 in domestics to do the same in international level when national teams picks the best talent available and slot them in appropriate roles. If you do not have good openers, MO batsmen are asked to open in national team and vice versa

Iyer, Pandey, Dube, Shankar etc. all bat in the middle order even in domestic.

[TNAmarkFromIndia]

4 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Playing a game where u have to hit from 1st ball will mostly result in inconsistency....

You don't have to always hit from 1st ball. Middle order batting is a lot more than just big hitting. A lot of it is calculative, both while putting up a target and while chasing. Being able to keep the scoreboard ticking and knowing when and how to take the calculated risk.

[zen]

9 minutes ago, TNAmarkFromIndia said:

Iyer, Pandey, Dube, Shankar etc. all bat in the middle order even in domestic.

If they are among the best available options (could be due to injuries to others), they will be selected. At times, players are fast tracked. Sometimes, players are picked even if they are not the best options (which is why we have so many threads on TM and selectors). It is not like a top order batsman cannot be played in MO or vice versa 

 

At 6 and 7, the team is also looking for players who can bat and bowl. So there are various relevant criteria than just list A averages, which not many care about much. 

Edited February 9, 2020 by zen

[TNAmarkFromIndia]

14 minutes ago, zen said:

If they are among the best available options (could be due to injuries to others), they will be selected.

Most of them were already middle order batsmen. Only Rahul is a top order batsman being slotted in the middle order.

 

23 minutes ago, zen said:

It is not like a top order batsman cannot be played in MO or vice versa 

It's not ideal. A top order batsman doesn't play with the same mentality that a middle order batsman does.

 

24 minutes ago, zen said:

At 6 and 7, the team is also looking for players who can bat and bowl. So there are various relevant criteria than just list A averages, which not many care about much. 

I'm talking about 4, 5, 6. Not 7. 7 can be just a big hitter like Pandya. 4, 5, 6 requires specialist batsmen.

[zen]

For e.g. If Jaiswal, who opens and can bowl too, continues to show promise, I would not mind him being fast-tracked to MO if a slot in top order is not available. That is how national selection should work. The idea is to have your best talent in the national team and make necessary accommodations if required 

[TNAmarkFromIndia]

23 minutes ago, zen said:

The idea is to have your best talent in the national team and make necessary accommodations if required 

That's not how it works. If the top 5 bowlers in your country are all spinners, that doesn't mean your bowling attack will consist of only spin. Different positions require different skill sets. Middle order batting requires unique skill sets that a top order batsman might not have. 

[zen]

6 minutes ago, TNAmarkFromIndia said:

That's not how it works. If the top 5 bowlers in your country are all spinners, that doesn't mean your bowling attack will consist of only spin. Different positions require different skill sets. Middle order batting requires unique skill sets that a top order batsman might not have. 

Are we not talking about batting here   .... As for playing spinners, Ind has done that too esp. in tests when it had great spinners. Guys like Amaranth/Solkar opened the bowling .... Teams like WI have played all fast bowlers  

 

There are so many other factors than merely watching list A averages

Edited February 9, 2020 by zen