First class Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 15 hours ago, The Realist said: What Pakistan is to do with Muslims in China, its an humanitarian issue . no doubt, but not a Pakistani issue. Kashimr is not just a humanitarian issue, Pakistan has a claim on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 (edited) 24 minutes ago, First class said: Pakistan has a claim on it. If by attacking Kashmir, Pak feels it has a claim on it, then any country can lay claim on any by simply attacking it. The reason Kashmir chose to be a part of Ind is because Pak attacked it. Edited February 18, 2020 by zen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vilander Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 If Kashmir conflict never existed meaning. After Kashmir ceding Pak never invaded or India repulsed the invasion fully in both frontiers and soundly defeated both pak and china to such an extent that they lost interest in kashmir and did not do any proxy wars there. Then right now India will have a pipeline from Russia and would have had boots in ground in Afganistan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vilander Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 If by Kashmir conflict never existing it is meant. Pak never invaded kashmir then it gets interesting. Pak never invaded kashmir, then it never had any issues with china ( for it to cede the Karakorum valley or for it to come to India to try and allign in a unified strategy against China initially or India to reject it ). Now in this scenario China and India had problems and fought a war, Pak continued to be US pet and after fall of Soviet union, Afganistan is annexed to pakistan the loyal US/saudi ally ( so complete strategic alignment between pak and US). And after Ind/China war one of two outcomes happened. China won in western front ( Karakoram/Askai Chin and lost in eastern front Arunachal/Tibet. Or lost on both or won both ( unlikely due to geography). China won west . Pak is prosperous , predominantly sunni, hates India but feels much superior, did not create terror so has high HDI and US loves it. India is similar as today but lost karakoram heights and Askai chin to china but managed to keep control of Gilgit and has a tense corridor and gas pipeline to central asia. India is more pro Russia/China than US which is Anti India. China ( No impact just regional , does not have Pak as lap dog no CPEC , may be made kazakistan/Iran as its alley and is alied with Iran/Russia against US/Saudi. China lost both. Not much of a difference from above scenario. But India is more prosperous and is a Russian alley, China due to successive defeats to other countries is in a more retreated state as a nation state. India is the behemoth hegemon in the region ( replaced current reality China) Pak no change. China won both, Pak no change ( No durand line), full strategic embrace with US. India submissive yet very vast middle class nation. China ( controls full of Kashmir/Tibet and is a super power) So basically if Pak had not wanted Kashmir and instead kept to itself , it would have done far better for itself and would have strategic depth vis-a-vis India because Afghanistan would have been annexed to it as a regional stabilizing force. India would have anyway had to deal with independent chinese aggression to hold all high points in Himalayas and result could have gone either way or been a stale mate as it is now. Net net, because of Pakistanis stupid attraction to Kashmir , India and Pak have vacated strategic space to China/Taliban and Iran. And US has lost strategic heft in south Asia, Russia has lost strategic heft in south Asia. Man this is like perfect story for Chinese rise no wonder they love pakistan now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecondSlip Posted April 3, 2020 Author Share Posted April 3, 2020 BUMP! @Gollum @sandeep @zen If United Kashmir (Indian Kashmir, Pakistani Kashmir & Gilgit-Baltistan) was given independent status from the British similar to Nepal before 1947, then neither us or Pakistan would have had any claim on it. With Kashmir an independent Himalayan nation like Nepal & Bhutan, there would be no wars between us and Pakistan. No wars means much better relations. We wouldn’t even get involved during Pakistan’s civil war in 1971. We would have just sat back, relaxed and enjoyed the Sh!tshow as @Singh bling said. Why do you guys think we would still have hostile relations even without Kashmir!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandeep Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 2 minutes ago, SecondSlip said: No wars means much better relations. On 2/15/2020 at 9:18 PM, Gollum said: LOL No My answer is still the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecondSlip Posted April 3, 2020 Author Share Posted April 3, 2020 11 minutes ago, sandeep said: My answer is still the same. This is why I asked this question Sandeep Bhaiya. The beloved “PakMil Mafia” would have 0 power if Kashmir conflict didn’t exist! 14 minutes ago, SecondSlip said: BUMP! @Gollum @sandeep @zen Why do you guys think we would still have hostile relations even without Kashmir!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandeep Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 2 minutes ago, SecondSlip said: he beloved “PakMil Mafia” would have 0 power if Kashmir conflict didn’t exist! This is simply not true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 (edited) 50 minutes ago, SecondSlip said: BUMP! @Gollum @sandeep @zen If United Kashmir (Indian Kashmir, Pakistani Kashmir & Gilgit-Baltistan) was given independent status from the British similar to Nepal before 1947, then neither us or Pakistan would have had any claim on it. With Kashmir an independent Himalayan nation like Nepal & Bhutan, there would be no wars between us and Pakistan. No wars means much better relations. We wouldn’t even get involved during Pakistan’s civil war in 1971. We would have just sat back, relaxed and enjoyed the Sh!tshow as @Singh bling said. Why do you guys think we would still have hostile relations even without Kashmir!? In simple terms - People know why and how Pak was formed. Its military leadership thrives on presenting India as a threat. To have India as a threat, a conflict (or an idea of it) is needed Also I am not sure about the assumption that if not for Kashmir, India would not have taken part in the formation of BD. East Pakistan suffered severe human rights violations and India had to deal with humanitarian crisis created because of it The conflicts exist because of the mindset of certain sections following an Islamic line of thinking and undermining people of non-Islamic religions and within Islamic religions, people who follow a different version and/or have a different background If Kashmir was independent, the Hindu king could have been assassinated with Pak’s help and the Pandits (representing people of non Islamic background) forced out of their homes to flee to other countries, Ind would still have to get involved in Kashmir like it did in BD. In a India-Kashmir war, Pak would be involved for its backIng of the Islamic elements in Kashmir .... Kashmir was in fact attacked by Pakistan through Kabalis as it did not want it to remain independent or join India There are too many factors involved. Elimination of a current battleground does not eliminate the possibility of the conflict emerging through other battlegrounds. If the region is such peace loving like you believe, why even fight on Kashmir? LoC can be seen as international border if the countries want to. Kashmir conflict exists because Pakistan attacked Kashmir (through Kabalis) Edited April 3, 2020 by zen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollum Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 (edited) 42 minutes ago, SecondSlip said: BUMP! @Gollum @sandeep @zen If United Kashmir (Indian Kashmir, Pakistani Kashmir & Gilgit-Baltistan) was given independent status from the British similar to Nepal before 1947, then neither us or Pakistan would have had any claim on it. With Kashmir an independent Himalayan nation like Nepal & Bhutan, there would be no wars between us and Pakistan. No wars means much better relations. We wouldn’t even get involved during Pakistan’s civil war in 1971. We would have just sat back, relaxed and enjoyed the Sh!tshow as @Singh bling said. Why do you guys think we would still have hostile relations even without Kashmir!? 1400 yo civilizational war, dharmic religions are the final frontier. How many countries with 40% Muslim pop have known peace? Had Bengal been one, I know what would have happened to my parents and me, won't spell it out here obviously to maintain decency. Problem with many here is they haven't lived in areas with significant Muslim population. Only when you live in such areas will your eyes open, otherwise you are insulated from real world problems. Those who want to pretend all is right, why don't you rent a flat in a locaility with significant M pop and then tell me your experience. Send your son to the local school/playground, your daughter to tuition at 8 pm in those areas. Do you *ers realize the precautions to be taken in such situations, the constant sense of fear? My father was brought up in a house in Bhopal in front of Taj-ul-Masjid, in the 50s it was 50:50, by the 70s theirs was the only Hindu/Sikh/Jain family left, they saved lives of Muslim neighbors in 1984 gas tragedy, in 1986 in the form of return gift driven out of that ancestral house by local extremists for measly compensation. Suresh Pachouri who is my father's close friend (MACT mate) and a powerful Congress leader had to convince him to not be stubborn, that advice probably saved their lives. There are pockets in Bengal where women (sometimes even men) in our family can't step out post sunset. Dharmics have been getting slaughtered like goats for centuries, we have been fighting for our survival all this time, still your eyes won't open or what? As long as a ratio of 3: 1 can be maintained, Hindus can somehow survive, otherwise phat ke haath mein aa jayega. Wanna dispute my assertion, move out from your dharmic majority areas for a few months. Thank Jinnah for the partition, curse those who have little loyalty towards India (not a religious thing, many Hindus included and many Muslims excluded) after eating food here their entire lives, curse Gandhi every night before you sleep who put his selfish interests above everything else. Edited April 3, 2020 by Gollum sergio04, Laaloo and Turning_track 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Realist Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 Co-existence with RoPers is impossible, a cursory glance around the world tells you that. Have to live in a permanent state of cold war and maintain a strong defence/police infrastructure because if they are not externally trying to break you then the ones that live in your midst will undermine you from within. The film Parasite had it right but with the wrong subjects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sukhoi Posted April 4, 2020 Share Posted April 4, 2020 On 2/18/2020 at 9:23 PM, First class said: What Pakistan is to do with Muslims in China, its an humanitarian issue . no doubt, but not a Pakistani issue. Kashimr is not just a humanitarian issue, Pakistan has a claim on it. What Claim - after exodussing the Kashmiri Pandits from their homes and keeping a religiuos sect full percent .... What about doing a vote for UN resolution, only with Russia, USA, France, UK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecondSlip Posted April 5, 2020 Author Share Posted April 5, 2020 @sandeep Even if “PakMil Mafia” has power, we won’t have had wars with them if Kashmir conflict didn’t exist. We have no other disputes with Pakistan other than Kashmir. @zen Their military presents “Big Bad India” as a threat because we’ve had 4 wars with them. However, if Kashmir conflict didn’t exist, then we would have had no wars and our relations would have been much better than it is today. The only reason why we got involved in 1971 is because we just had war with them 6 years earlier in 1965 and our enmity was still fresh. However, if there was no Kashmir dispute, then 1965 war would not have happened and I believe that we wouldn’t get involved in 1971 either. @Gollum India has excellent relations with every country (Including Islamic) in the world barring Pakistan (because of kashmir) and Turkey (They want Pakistan’s nukes). If Kashmir conflict didn’t exist, Our relationship with Pakistan would have been maybe at a similar level to say what we have with Bangladesh today as @Global.Baba mentions above. It might not be a “Best Friend’s Forever” relation but it would certainly be a million times better than it is now. Also, can you explain what do you mean about Gandhi? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted April 5, 2020 Share Posted April 5, 2020 9 minutes ago, SecondSlip said: Their military presents “Big Bad India” as a threat because we’ve had 4 wars with them. However, if Kashmir conflict didn’t exist, then we would have had no wars and our relations would have been much better than it is today. The only reason why we got involved in 1971 is because we just had war with them 6 years earlier in 1965 and our enmity was still fresh. However, if there was no Kashmir dispute, then 1965 war would not have happened and I believe that we wouldn’t get involved in 1971 either. lots of “ifs” and “buts” and, as explained, when a) Pak Military needs to project Ind as a threat to maintain power, b) Kashmir conflict was initiated by Pakistan by attacking Kashmir, and c) elimination of one battleground does not rule out the possibility of another battleground Many posters have already explained the motivation aspects as well. To understand Pak better, I recommend reading books by Christine Fair (Fighting to the end) and articles such as this SecondSlip 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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