Current Test Team Under Virat Kohli Is India's Best Ever: Sunil Gavaskar

[Gollum]

3 hours ago, Tibarn said:

Didn't you know? Every team in the early 2000s was at least 5 times the team any current team is. Every player was at least 7 feet tall and 300 lbs of pure muscle. Ajit Agarkar used to bowl 200 kph and was a mid tier bowler back then. Steve Smith would have averaged 7 in that era. Kohli would have averaged 5. Bumrah would be played off like a C-tier Ranji Spinner. Jadeja and Ashwin would be lofted out of the park for 6 every other delivery. Even club-level bowlers would banana swing the ball 10 degrees every delivery 

Ganguly winning 9 times against Zimbabwe and Bangladesh is the single greatest cricketing captaincy feat in cricket history. It's up there with whitewashing Viv Richard-era Windies teams 

+1

Quote

Here is the rankings history of Ganguly's team: from 2000 to 2003 the team never even reached a 100 rating. It wasn't until 2004 that they finally crossed 100. Their peak rating wasn't until 2006, when Dravid took over the captaincy with a 1 month  peak of 115. 

 

A team which struggled to cross a 100 rating is better than Dhoni's team from 2009-2010 or Kohli's current team 

We crossed 100 only in 2004-05, disgraceful. At the same place for 40% of that decade where teams like SL, Pak, WI are now. 

 

Edited August 25, 2020 by Gollum

[coffee_rules]

4 hours ago, Tibarn said:

The GOAT Aussie team was from the end of 2004-2007,  under Ponting, with a peak rating of 143 in 2007, where they never fell below a 130 rating.

https://web.archive.org/web/20130320093757/http://www.icc-cricket.com/match_zone/test_ranking.php?year=2004

https://web.archive.org/web/20130320092902/http://www.icc-cricket.com/match_zone/test_ranking.php?year=2007

 

Ganguly lost a home series to that team in 2004-5. 

 

Greatest captain ever, getting whitewashed overseas and losing home series. Barely winning a home series after Laxman and Dravid saved his arse

You want to compare teams over ratings? They are a bunch of algorithms based on some wins under different conditions. That is worse than statsguru readers. Nobody is saying 2000s team was an ATG, it was the team which started the resurrection where India started playing as a team. The bowling was the worst in that era. Srinath . ZK, Kumble had different individual brilliances , but never clicked as a team. After 15 years of not winning away, it was the decade where we started winning abroad - tests not serieses. Winning 2001 was the beginning. Squaring a series in Eng was a start. Winning a test in PoS was the first major win outside SC after 15 years. You don’t know how it feels to witness it as a fan. You guys are spoilt with wins. Try being a fan in that era to witness a test series win in Pak, equalling a series in Eng and Aus. 
 

2004 home series was a misfortune due losing the last day in Chennai where we could have won and squared the series. The BCCI politics between Shashank Manohar and Dalmiya made the Nagpur test a scapegoat. They prepared a green top and gave the advantage to Aus. Facking traitors. Bombay was a spin minefield for that reason. 
 

After 2003 till 2006, we had a handicap in Tendulkar. Look at his stats in that period , He had a tennis elbow but still played. Post 2007 till 2011 he averages 65

2003-2006      29 matches Avg 44 100s-4
2007-2011WC 44 matches Avg 63 100s-16

 

despite that our performance in ENA was much better than 2015 onwards. Now, If we had that era batting and this era bowling..

 

2007 till 2011 was our ATG team

Edited August 25, 2020 by coffee_rules

[zen]

23 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

2007 till 2011 was our ATG team

 

 

2007-11

 

Away

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Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka  or West Indies

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Team	Span	Mat	Won	Lost	Tied	Draw	W/L	Ave	RPO	Inns	HS	LS
India	2007-2011	28	7	12	0	9	0.583	32.63	3.23	55	707	136

 

 

Home

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Primary team India

Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka  or West Indies

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Team	Span	Mat	Won	Lost	Tied	Draw	W/L	Ave	RPO	Inns	HS	LS
India	2007-2011	25	13	2	0	10	6.500	47.62	3.63	44	726	76

 

 

2015-Present

 

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Team	Span	Mat	Won	Lost	Tied	Draw	W/L	Ave	RPO	Inns	HS	LS
India	2015-2020	27	13	10	0	4	1.300	32.21	3.19	47	622	107

 

 

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Primary team India

Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka  or West Indies

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Team	Span	Mat	Won	Lost	Tied	Draw	W/L	Ave	RPO	Inns	HS	LS
India	2015-2019	24	18	1	0	5	18.000	44.05	3.43	40	759	105

 

 

2015-Current may not have great names (showpieces) relatively speaking but they have pushed themselves to rake up some great performances! 

Edited August 25, 2020 by zen

[raki05]

8 hours ago, zen said:

Winning or losing Ashes may not have a relation to how a team is rated among other teams. By a similar token, the Ind team lost to Pak in 2006, that should make its claim invalid

It matters ashes is the biggest cricket rivalary in test have history of more than 150 years and ponting lost 2 one in aus so much for a greatest team . India defeated pak in 2004 though 2006 dravid was captain not ganguly, but that team defeated pak in 2004. Ponting lost against sa as well I suppose. Whereas Steve wagh team dint lost a single ashes and blanked every team at their home not named India.

[vvvslaxman]

Kyle Jamison will beg to differ

[zen]

36 minutes ago, raki05 said:

It matters ashes is the biggest cricket rivalary in test have history of more than 150 years and ponting lost 2 one in aus so much for a greatest team . India defeated pak in 2004 though 2006 dravid was captain not ganguly, but that team defeated pak in 2004. Ponting lost against sa as well I suppose. Whereas Steve wagh team dint lost a single ashes and blanked every team at their home not named India.

That is your perspective. Do you think people do not know all that?  For someone else, Aus vs SA could be more competitive in general, Ind loss to Pak could rank worse, Ind loss in SL a disgrace, Ind loss in Aus in 2011 a black spot, Aus win in Ind after so many decades could rank higher, and so on. Which is why at times, many folks rely on ratings, with other things being on par, as they are relatively neutral 

PS I am not discussing which team ranks where but the methodology 

 

Edited August 26, 2020 by zen

[Stan AF]

Haven't read all the posts but Comparing ponting to Steve Waugh is blasphemy for 2 reasons.

 

W/L ratio for Steve is 4.55. in 57 games, 41 wins and just 9 losses. Ponting is 3.

 

In the 2nd half of his captaincy stint, Ponting started losing once his purple patch disappeared. Started losing to SA at home, England both home and away and India twice away. Certainly below Steve in terms of captaincy.

 

Our disastrous tour in 2011 threw him an extra lifeline of a year in test cricket otherwise he was gone right after the WC.

 

 

[raki05]

22 minutes ago, zen said:

That is your perspective. Do you think people do not know all that?  For someone else, Aus vs SA could be more competitive in general, Ind loss to Pak could rank worse, Ind loss in SL a disgrace, Ind loss in Aus in 2011 a black spot, Aus win in Ind after so many decades could rank higher, and so on. Which is why at times, many folks rely on ratings, with other things being on par, as they are relatively neutral 

PS I am not concerned with which team is ranks where but the methodology

 

.What matters to australian in general is what matters, no body care even if aus lost in sl and drew to bd as long as they keep winning in ashes . Did you see Smith getting fired after drawn series in bd andgetting blanked in sl and uae ,no coz their ashes performance were top notch. Ponting won 2 wc as captain but lost captaincy after 2 ashes loss. So doesn't matter what you think. BTW it's u who always twist the fact to bring your perspective for someone who is considered great by many cricket experts by bringing some random criteria whereas you completely ignore the generally established facts. Weren't you the one who disregard india drew series in aus during ganguly time by saying mcgrath Warne dint play, then y u consider aus  win in ind more important where sachin dint play first 2 matches and tormentor bhajji dint play last 2. So u twist fact to fit your biased but if someone else do the same you don't consider that as well.

[raki05]

4 minutes ago, Stan AF said:

Haven't read all the posts but Comparing ponting to Steve Waugh is blasphemy for 2 reasons.

 

W/L ratio for Steve is 4.55. in 57 games, 41 wins and just 9 losses. Ponting is 3.

 

In the 2nd half of his captaincy stint, Ponting started losing once his purple patch disappeared. Started losing to SA at home, England both home and away and India twice away. Certainly below Steve in terms of captaincy.

 

Our disastrous tour in 2011 threw him an extra lifeline of a year in test cricket otherwise he was gone right after the WC.

 

 

+ And in 2011 Clark was captain not ponting. Steve wagh is regarded as greatest captain along with AB in aus. Only on iCF stats guru expert consider ponting as greatest test captain.

Edited August 26, 2020 by raki05

[Stan AF]

If the present team is so great Gavaskar saar why are they losing in SENA so horribly?. We have lost atleast 20 test matches since 2011. Can you give a logical answer.

[Stan AF]

Fact of the matter is, us Indian fans were looking for a way for the match to be rained out so that England will not amass points in WTC after Kohli found a way to lose two test matches to Kiwis of all people. England should be at 346 now instead of 292. Kohli can thank English weather for this.

[zen]

2 minutes ago, raki05 said:

.What matters to australian in general is what matters, no body care even if aus lost in sl and drew to bd as long as they keep winning in ashes . Did you see Smith getting fired after drawn series in bd andgetting blanked in sl and uae ,no coz their ashes performance were top notch. Ponting won 2 wc as captain but lost captaincy after 2 ashes loss. So doesn't matter what you think.

A misleading assumption as if Australian think Ashes winner is the best team in the world, not many would agree, indicating that what matters to Australians may not matter to others.  And the poster wrote the below:

 

Quote

 

2000s Australia was the number 1 team for 8-9 years with 2 different captains. That doesn't mean that the team was equally good all those years. Waugh was captain the first half and his team was number 1 but never leagues better than all the other teams. They spent the year 2000, competing with SA for number 1, SA held it for a month and the two were always close in the rankings.

https://web.archive.org/web/20130320092516/http://www.icc-cricket.com/match_zone/test_ranking.php?year=2000

 

It's not until Ponting's reign that they became unstoppable. From 2004 to 2007, they were the highest rated ream ever, won 48 tests in 77 matches, 16 straight wins, series win in India, etc  

 

You are free to your opinion, but rankings show Ponting's team from 2004 to 2007 was the one that was the unstoppable GOAT Aussie team . 

 

 

He is actually trying to remove subjective elements relatively speaking .... 

 

 

Quote

BTW it's u who always twist the fact to bring your perspective for someone who is considered great by many cricket experts by bringing some random criteria whereas you completely ignore the generally established facts. Weren't you the one who disregard india drew series in aus during ganguly time by saying mcgrath Warne dint play, then y u consider aus  win in ind more important where sachin dint play first 2 matches and tormentor bhajji dint play last 2. So u twist fact to fit your biased but if someone else do the same you don't consider that as well.

Again a logical fallacy - Ad hominem 

[Tibarn]

9 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

You want to compare teams over ratings? They are a bunch of algorithms based on some wins under different conditions. That is worse than statsguru readers. Nobody is saying 2000s team was an ATG, it was the team which started the resurrection where India started playing as a team. The bowling was the worst in that era.

Read the first page of the thread again, neither I nor Zen were comparing the early 2000s team with the current team, only a certain fanboy compared them and then he got shown their aukaat. We were discussing between the current team and the 2009-2010 team. That Ganguly team was mediocre at best.

 

Only a complete fool(I'm not talking about you Coffee_Rules) lacking any cricketing knowledge would say Ganguly's team from 2000 was/is better than the current team.  

 

9 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

2007 till 2011 was our ATG team

 I consider the time-frame to be only 2009-2010, under Dhoni. The team from 2007-2008, under Kumble had a losing record. Although they had series win in England under Dravid, I consider each of the teams separate based off the captains and some of the players chosen. 

 

IMO the addition of Gambhir is what really pushed us to become number 1

 

 

Edited August 26, 2020 by Tibarn

[Tibarn]

10 hours ago, Gollum said:

+1

We crossed 100 only in 2004-05, disgraceful. At the same place for 40% of that decade where teams like SL, Pak, WI are now. 

 

On the bright side, if that team played Zimbabwe 100 they would have won most of those matches. 

[raki05]

21 minutes ago, zen said:

A misleading assumption as if Australian think Ashes winner is the best team in the world, not many would agree, indicating that what matters to Australians may not matter to others.  And the poster wrote the below:

 

 

He is actually trying to remove subjective elements relatively speaking .... 

 

 

Again a logical fallacy - Ad hominem 

To whom to u.....it's fine what aus and eng think is important to them just like how Indian feels about their team. 2 different captain dint caotain together. While Steve wagh was captain he captained alone and has highest win percentage. Just because some idiot (not u tried to insert team stats to show ponting team was greatest aus test team and when shown win-loss ratio of Steve wagh vs ponting and also performance in major events he sneaked out. I have seen idiots here comparing current Indian team to past why did u judge them from past Indian team when we were resurging from fixing event being a meek team with no name bowlers but still punch above their weight. just because some drunk coach and cheerleader comentrator overhyoe current Indian team I can't go ga ga over them. Reality is in past also india was dominant at home barring few ocassions but india was always meek overseas and that still stands true no matter how much stats are presented, I watched enough cricket especially current Indian team under Kohli and before that so I know this team is overhyped and no need to see stats guru for that.

[zen]

52 minutes ago, raki05 said:

To whom to u.....it's fine what aus and eng think is important to them just like how Indian feels about their team.

Neither Aus nor Eng are discussing this. Similarly Ind, Pak or SL may think something else.  For e.g. not many judge Aus team based on what Aus think, Eng team based on what Eng think, BD team based on what BD thinks, and so on 

 

Quote

2 different captain dint caotain together. While Steve wagh was captain he captained alone and has highest win percentage. Just because some idiot (not u tried to insert team stats to show ponting team was greatest aus test team and when shown win-loss ratio of Steve wagh vs ponting and also performance in major events he sneaked out. I have seen idiots here comparing current Indian team to past why did u judge them from past Indian team when we were resurging from fixing event being a meek team with no name bowlers but still punch above their weight.

 

Again the use of highly subjective elements. Note that many teams have come out from difficult situations. It is not something new. For e.g. Aus in 1980s rebuilt under Border to beat WI in mid 90s (it was like a historic event).  Similarly, an Ind team coming out of crisis is nothing new in terms of what other teams have gone through. All teams are eventually judged based on performance

 

Also Steve Waugh has been captain since late 90s. Here the teams in 2000s are being discussed 

 

 

Quote

just because some drunk coach and cheerleader comentrator overhyoe current Indian team I can't go ga ga over them. Reality is in past also india was dominant at home barring few ocassions but india was always meek overseas and that still stands true no matter how much stats are presented, I watched enough cricket especially current Indian team under Kohli and before that so I know this team is overhyped and no need to see stats guru for that.

 

They are talking "relatively" though. Gavaskar rates the current team as the greatest mainly based on its bowling strength (a fact). Being greatest among Indian teams does not mean that they cannot lose or have become Bradman's Invincibles. It simply means that they are better than teams in the past  

2015-2019 team would also have a terrific W/L ratio relative to other Ind teams and iirc was at #1 for 43 months 

 

Edited August 26, 2020 by zen

[Stan AF]

On 8/25/2020 at 10:25 AM, Gollum said:

That's nostalgia taking over. 

 

That NZ much superior to this NZ really?????? In an all time NZ XI we'll have 4-5 players from current NZ in the team and more in squad.

 

Eng of 2010s better than 2000s, comfortably so. 

 

Aus 2000s better but current team has the better bowling attack (at least match-up wise against us) and the best batsman since Bradman, best HTB since Sehwag.

 

RSA of 2017-18 was bloody strong in home conditions, RSA team that came here in 2015 was class.

 

We beat SL in 2015, strong side, should have been 3-0 if umpiring was half decent.

 

WI now superior to the 2000s version. 

 

BD stronger now than 2000s, not that it matters much. 

 

Pak can't say much since we haven't played each other. But their 2000s side had a weak bowling attack, lacked mental toughness as well. they fielded their best side in the 2011-16 period if you ask me. 

I will stick to what the previous decade team achieved vis a vis team.

 

Australia - Only team ever to stop them from winning consecutive 17 test matches, twice. Won in 2001 and Lost in 2004 because of a rained off day, drew in 2003 away and technically should have won the 2007 tour if not for sydney gate. Again defeated them twice 2-0 in 2008/10.

 

South africa - While we started horribly in 2001, did a splendid start in 2006 only to fumble up and lose 2-1.  managed to achieve a 1-1 draw against a technically GOAT SA side in 2010. This is still the best result in that country even now. SA had an ATG strong side that toured us both in 2008 and 2010 and we really played well to drew both the series. I have to remind you at this point SA won in Australia & England in 2008 and in 2012. Compared to that the Indian team did much better in drawing them.

 

England: Drew in england 1-1 in 2002. First best result in 2 decades i guess. won in 2007. This is still the best decade in terms of results compared to this decade. I see no way that this team under kohli doing any better this decade.

 

New Zealand 2002 : That series was marred by pitch controversy. They bowled us out for 99 we bowled em out for 94. It was a shenanigan of a test series and i'm not going to bother about it much. We won in 2009 and again I have to say this is the best result compared to this decade. We lost 2-0 there this year.

 

The caliber of opposition we faced in australia both at home and away with SA and Aus are among the best. England started getting better from the middle of the last decade. NZ may be better now but that's all.

 

P.S: I'm not a fan of writing long posts and i'm not interested in entertaining any arguments that say this team is better when there are no results to speak of. I'm aware of home records but a real performance is winning abroad.

[Stan AF]

Also won our series abroad with arch rivals pakistan in 2004. First in like 15 years or something.

 

Chased 387 on a Sennai pitch on a 5th day(???) against swann thanks to Sehwag and tendulkar. I cannot see the present team chasing even 250 now.

 

So many good memories from Sehwag 300s, laxman bashing aussies for fun, ganguly fighting 100 in brisbane, zaheer khan smashing english lefties, sreesanth running over saffers, ishanth sharma spell to ponting, first team to win in perth for 5 years.

 

Damn, so many good memories .

[Tibarn]

 

I wonder why people comment without reading the actual discussion. 

 

For anyone who was actually following the discussion:

 

Everyone knows Waugh has the better overall captaincy record than Ponting, a simple google search is enough there, but the 2nd half of Ponting's captaincy is irrelevant to what was the discussion. The discussion was over whether the 2000-2004 Waugh side or the 2004 to 2007 Ponting side deserves the title of GOAT Aussie side. 

 

Here is the relevant post

Quote

2000s Australia was the number 1 team for 8-9 years with 2 different captains. That doesn't mean that the team was equally good all those years. Waugh was captain the first half and his team was number 1 but never leagues better than all the other teams. They spent the year 2000, competing with SA for number 1, SA held it for a month and the two were always close in the rankings.

https://web.archive.org/web/20130320092516/http://www.icc-cricket.com/match_zone/test_ranking.php?year=2000

 

It's not until Ponting's reign that they became unstoppable. From 2004 to 2007, they were the highest rated ream ever, won 48 tests in 77 matches, 16 straight wins, series win in India, etc  

 

You are free to your opinion, but rankings show Ponting's team from 2004 to 2007 was the one that was the unstoppable GOAT Aussie team .

The discussion was strictly regarding 2000-2007, which of the two Aussie sides was the GOAT version, the one under Waugh from 2000-~2004 or the Ponting led team ~2004-2007. (Why some people decide to phenk about 2011 is strange, considering no-one considers the 2011 Aussies a GOAT contender). 

 

Anything after 2008 is not germane to the discussion, as Austailia began its terminal decline in the rankings in 2008, culminating with India's ascension to the top spot in 2009. 

 

Let us compare the two sides in both W-L-D record and ICC Ratings. Both sides had an uninterrupted

 

Waugh: 2000-2004

Overall figures

Team	Span	Mat	Won	Lost	Tied	Draw	W/L	Ave	RPO	Inns	HS	LS
Australia	2000-2004	40	29	6	0	5	4.833	44.81	3.83	69	652	127

 

29-6-5 (W-L-D)

 

WL ratio of 4.8

 

Ponting: 2004-2007

Overall figures

Team	Span	Mat	Won	Lost	Tied	Draw	W/L	Ave	RPO	Inns	HS	LS
Australia	2004-2007	35	27	3	0	5	9.000	44.19	3.72	66	602	93

 

27-3-5(W-L-D)

 

WL ratio of 9.0

 

Australia began it's terminal decline in 2008,

Ponting 2008 

Overall figures

Team	Mat	Won	Lost	Tied	Draw	W/L	Ave	RPO	Inns	HS	LS
Australia	14	5	5	0	4	1.000	37.38	3.31	26	577	167

 

5-5-4 (W-L-D)

 

WL ratio of 1.0

 

As anyone numerate can see, Ponting's reign was almost twice as dominant as Waugh's. Ponting faced the same thing Dhoni did in 2011 and after: a record blemished by a declining/rebuilding team.  I'm sure some "geniuses" think somehow Waugh would have prevented the decline in 2008, but they are "geniuses" for a reason. Literally the exact same picture of can be seen in the ICC rankings.

 

Ponting's team reaches the astonishing 143 Test rating at its peak and holds multiple months of ratings above 130 and 140 . Waugh's reaches a ceiling of 130. Ponting has a W/L Ratio of 9.0, Waugh has one of 4.8. 

 

Apparently a team with a peak 143 rating and a 9.8 W/L ratio is not the GOAT Aussie side. 

 

 

ICC highest, lowest, and end of year rating for Australia by year from 2000-2008, in the spoiler below 

 

 

2000

https://web.archive.org/web/20130320092516/http://www.icc-cricket.com/match_zone/test_ranking.php?year=2000

Highest Rating: 117

Lowest Rating: 114

Year End Rating: 117

 

2001

https://web.archive.org/web/20130320093827/http://www.icc-cricket.com/match_zone/test_ranking.php?year=2001

Highest Rating: 120

Lowest Rating: 115

Year End Rating: 119

 

2002

https://web.archive.org/web/20130320092925/http://www.icc-cricket.com/match_zone/test_ranking.php?year=2002

Highest Rating: 129

Lowest Rating: 121

Year End Rating: 129

 

2003

https://web.archive.org/web/20130320093711/http://www.icc-cricket.com/match_zone/test_ranking.php?year=2003

Highest Rating: 130

Lowest Rating: 129

Year End Rating: 130

 

2004

https://web.archive.org/web/20130320093757/http://www.icc-cricket.com/match_zone/test_ranking.php?year=2004

Highest Rating: 130

Lowest Rating: 125

Year End Rating: 130

 

2005

https://web.archive.org/web/20130320092538/http://www.icc-cricket.com/match_zone/test_ranking.php?year=2005

Highest Rating: 132

Lowest Rating: 127

Year End Rating: 128

 

2006

https://web.archive.org/web/20130320093734/http://www.icc-cricket.com/match_zone/test_ranking.php?year=2006

Highest Rating: 131

Lowest Rating: 129

Year End Rating: 130

 

2007

https://web.archive.org/web/20130320092902/http://www.icc-cricket.com/match_zone/test_ranking.php?year=2007

Highest Rating: 143

Lowest Rating: 134

Year End Rating: 143

 

2008

https://web.archive.org/web/20130320092959/http://www.icc-cricket.com/match_zone/test_ranking.php?year=2008

Highest Rating: 141

Lowest Rating: 130

Year End Rating: 130
 

 

 

Edited August 26, 2020 by Tibarn

[Stan AF]

You don't get to say you can only compare from ponting 2004-07 and not ponting from 2007-2010. If you will praise ponting for the earlier you will have to censure his record in the latter years as well as he was the captain in both the tenures. You can't have it both ways, mate. Point is he lost way too many test matches to be compared to steve waugh. Your post is a non-starter. Steve is easily a much much better captain than ponting.  End of story.