Navdeep Saini is overrated.

[express bowling]

12 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Yes, I never denied that he did not deserve his place in third test. I also said  if they had selected Natrajan TM should be sacked. But The hype that some people put on here when he did not play in India against so called weaker teams was ridiculous.

 

 

No ... Siraj and Saini debuting against weak teams in tests was needed so that we did not have to play 2 debutants in SENA tests and not because Saini is a potential great.

 

Sadly, this is what has happened. 

[Amit228]

14 minutes ago, raki05 said:

 how do you know he doesn't work hard on his game? BTW what was your suggestion whom do you see best fit in this situation when our main bowlers are not available. Would you be happy with Thakur or Nattu? Do you think swing and seam made you successful if that's the case Bhuvi should have been more successful test bowlers. Even yadav spray gun is better than bhuvi in test ( Stats looks good for bhuvi but he only played so far in seaming or swinging pitches in india/abroad)

Swing nd seam does make a bowler? what makes u think otherwise.. does pace alone guarantee success?? Then what made McGrath, pollock, vaas, akram et al great bowlers??

They weren't express like lee or Akhtar.. but had immaculate control over their line nd length with great skills of moving ball both in air nd from the pitch...

 

Even current crop of top test bowler aren't that express.. in test cricket if u can move the ball (new nd old ball) both ways nd can operate in decent pace bracket of 130-140kmph than u are bound to succeed..

 

I will happily take a bowler with 130-140 pace bracket with skills to move ball both ways than a wayward skill less bowler operating at 145kmph+

 

Pace without movement is trivial in international cricket..

 

Bhuvi last played a test match in south Africa in early 2018 where he performed good nd picked 10 wickets in two matches.

 

After that he hasn't played any test matches owing to his shabby fitness nd injuries.. 

 

[express bowling]

7 minutes ago, putrevus said:

So now we have create a rule to debut players when they are in form but not when team needs them.How are we going assess that form. What should we do to the players who were picked before him and are currently in team.

 

 

It is not a rule but a practical approach.

 

How to do it  ?

 

Debut 1 youngster by rotation against the weak teams.

 

A 3 man pace attack can have 1 debutant or newish pacer against Afghanistan and Bangladesh  and against WI and SL when we are playing at home.

 

And stop picking too many home track bullies at home.

[putrevus]

1 minute ago, express bowling said:

 

 

No ... Siraj and Saini debuting against weak teams in tests was needed so that we did not have to play 2 debutants in SENA tests and not because Saini is a potential great.

 

Sadly, this is what has happened. 

I don't think it should be ever done giving debuts when it is not needed. What they done is correct you debut a youngster when there is a need for him in the team . There can be case made for Siraj vs Shardul for that one test. Test cap is not cheap against any team.

[express bowling]

1 minute ago, putrevus said:

I don't think it should be ever done giving debuts when it is not needed. What they done is correct you debut a youngster when there is a need for him in the team . There can be case made for Siraj vs Shardul for that one test. Test cap is not cheap against any team.

 

 

Too much of a theoretical approach and not a practical one.

[putrevus]

Just now, express bowling said:

 

 

It is not a rule but a practical approach.

 

How to do it  ?

 

Debut 1 youngster by rotation against the weak teams.

 

A 3 man pace attack can have 1 debutant or newish pacer against Afghanistan and Bangladesh  and against WI and SL when we are playing at home.

 

And stop picking too many home track bullies at home.

What you are saying is totally impractical. You cannot create two sets of teams. 

 

3 man pace attack against weaker teams if all senior players are fit they all should play period.

 

Rahane stinks against spin but is okay against fast bowlers , do we drop Rahane from home matches and play Rohit .Drop Rohit from away matches and play Rahane. You pick your best team and all you can do is hope that they do well in all conditions.

[G_B_]

I notice that players from Delhi Haryana and Punjab are a bit overhyped on this forum. Might reflect the unconscious bias of the posters on this forum to back players from their respective cultures.

 

No fault of Saini in all of this mind you. The guy has been selected because of his ranji record and is only playing as Shami Ishant and Umesh are injured. Its not as if he was picked over these players. Unless he bowls a dream spell in the remaining tests will be behind the pecking order after Bumrah Shami Ishant Umesh (maybe Saini). 

[Amit228]

25 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

Thakur is too short for a bowler of his pace plus accuracy combo.  

 

Such bowlers never do well in test cricket.

 

India's fast bowling strength in tests has become awesome from 2018 onwards when we started to ignore medium pacers and short seamers without extra pace.

 

 

 

Saini is playing his first test first innings.

 

How has he failed game after game  ?

 

 

****   Who is your preferred pick as the 3rd pacer in test matches in the absence of Shami, Ishant and Umesh. ?

 

 

Even shami is shorter than saini that means shami is just bound to fail in test cricket because he is shorter?? Ur argument doesn't hold good... Even Ishant one of our tallest bowler was crap with ball for major part of his career because he lacked skills.. only now he has turned lethal because he gets appreciable seam movement.. nd guess what he isn't either any express like he was in his early days..

 

Height is one eminent advantage for a fast bowler.. i agree.. but not the most of the eminent.. what matters most is the skill of the bowler.. 

 

Nd when i said failing game after game i made a generalised comment not aiming at saini..

 

Thakur nd Saini both have similar record in domestic matches.. so shorter thakur outperformed taller saini or just taller saini underperformed nd was not in form as to let shorter thakur match him in first class?

 

Edited January 7, 2021 by Amit228

[putrevus]

1 minute ago, G_B_ said:

I notice that players from Delhi Haryana and Punjab are a bit overhyped on this forum. Might reflect the unconscious bias of the posters on this forum to back players from their respective cultures.

 

No fault of Saini in all of this mind you. The guy has been selected because of his ranji record and is only playing as Shami Ishant and Umesh are injured. Its not as if he was picked over these players. Unless he bowls a dream spell in the remaining tests will be behind the pecking order after Bumrah Shami Ishant Umesh (maybe Saini). 

That overhype is the problem.Saini was given debut as per his pecking order.He has done okay for a debutant. Any debutant will have jitters but he did pickup a wicket. He has this test and next test to change the pecking order.

[Serpico]

3 minutes ago, putrevus said:

I don't think it should be ever done giving debuts when it is not needed. What they done is correct you debut a youngster when there is a need for him in the team .

But there was a need. Bumrah was injured, which freed up a spot for pacers. They had a choice between picking an ageing HTB and two new pacers with potential in multiple conditions.. and they went with first option.

[express bowling]

6 minutes ago, Amit228 said:

.. does pace alone guarantee success??

 

 

Who has said that pace alone guarantees success ?

 

Combination of pace, bounce, accuracy, some movement, good bouncer, preferably good yorker and ability to set up batsmen  ... this is what makes an ideal pace bowler.

 

 

6 minutes ago, Amit228 said:

Then what made McGrath, pollock, vaas, akram et al great bowlers??

 

 

Akram ... Extra pace and bounce ... 6'2" height  ... nasty bouncer ... sultan of swing and reverse swing ( not an ideal example )

 

McGrath ... 6'5" height with steep bounce ... zip off the deck ... nasty bouncer ... pinpoint accuracy ... great ability to set up batsmen.

 

Pollock ... 6'3" height with extra bounce ... zip off the deck ... good accuracy ... seam and swing

 

Vaas ... averages almost 30 in tests with a SR of 60+. Not interested in such bowlers.

 

 

6 minutes ago, Amit228 said:

 

They weren't express like lee or Akhtar.. but had immaculate control over their line nd length with great skills of moving ball both in air nd from the pitch...

 

Even current crop of top test bowler aren't that express.. in test cricket if u can move the ball (new nd old ball) both ways nd can operate in decent pace bracket of 130-140kmph than u are bound to succeed..

 

I will happily take a bowler with 130-140 pace bracket with skills to move ball both ways than a wayward skill less bowler operating at 145kmph+

 

Pace without movement is trivial in international cricket..

 

 

Cummins, Bumrah and Rabada ... 3 of the best all condition pacers in tests now ... all bowl 135 k to 148 k with skills.

 

All are fast bowlers.

 

Express pace of 150 k+ is not a necessity  ... but being fast  or 140 k+ does help a lot if the pacer has skills too.

 

 

[putrevus]

3 minutes ago, Serpico said:

But there was a need. Bumrah was injured, which freed up a spot for pacers. They had a choice between picking an ageing HTB and two new pacers with potential in multiple conditions.. and they went with first option.

I would do exactly the same thing. If they did what are suggesting them do means you are kicking out Umesh who is perfectly fine bowler out of the team.

 

You are talking as if Saini is 20 and Umesh is 40. Saini is 28 and Umesh is 33. Umesh is a beast at home. Is Saini better than Umesh overseas is the question, these two tests will go long way in proving it.

[Amit228]

6 minutes ago, putrevus said:

That overhype is the problem.Saini was given debut as per his pecking order.He has done okay for a debutant. Any debutant will have jitters but he did pickup a wicket. He has this test and next test to change the pecking order.

Yep... Exactly that.. overhype is the problem.. for some saini would been a starter even before siraj.. why?? Because Saini can bowl quicker nd is taller?

 

U match siraj nd saini nd see the hype surrounding saini just because he bowls quick thunderbolts.. nd now see how dibly dobly siraj made difference in his debut match... Now Saini for all the hype surrounding needs to atleast match siraj.. that's the least we can expect from him..

 

Let's see how he comes ahead in this match.

 

[express bowling]

25 minutes ago, Amit228 said:

 

Even shami is shorter than saini that means shami is just bound to fail in test cricket because he is shorter?? Ur argument doesn't hold good...

 

 

 

To succeed in test cricket, a short pacer needs a combination of 140 k+ pace + bounce + zip off the deck + a good bouncer + accuracy + some movement + ability to set up batsmen.

 

Shami has all the above qualities.

 

Shardul lacks some of these qualities.

 

You did not read properly.  I said that Shardul lacks the pace + accuracy combo needed for a short pacer.  ( Shami has it )

 

 

Quote

Even Ishant one of our tallest bowler was crap with ball for major part of his career because he lacked skills.. only now he has turned lethal because he gets appreciable seam movement.. nd guess what he isn't either any express like he was in his early days..

 

Height is one eminent advantage for a fast bowler.. i agree.. but not the most of the eminent.. what matters most is the skill of the bowler.. 

 

Nd when i said failing game after game i made a generalised comment not aiming at saini..

 

Thakur nd Saini both have similar record in domestic matches.. so shorter thakur outperformed taller saini or just taller saini underperformed nd was not in form as to let shorter thakur match him in first class?

 

 

 

 

It is not an either or approach.

 

To be a really good pacer the need is ....

 

Pace ( for his height ) + bounce + zip off the deck + accuracy + some movement + a good bouncer + ability to set up batsmen.

 

If a pacer is medium-fast then he needs more of the other qualities. As simple as that.

 

Shardul lacks most of the other qualities too.

 

Edited January 7, 2021 by express bowling

[putrevus]

Shaw debuted against WI at home and scored 100 .Did it prove anything about Shaw.There are 25 batsmen in Indian cricket who have ability to score 100 against WI at home.  What would have happened if Siraj or Saini debuted against Bangladesh and Afghanistan and both of them took 10fer each. Would they have become better bowlers this series??? 

 

What would be the pecking order then?

[express bowling]

26 minutes ago, putrevus said:

What you are saying is totally impractical. You cannot create two sets of teams. 

 

I did not say 2 sets of teams. I said play just 1 new player against weaker teams.

 

You don't read properly.

 

26 minutes ago, putrevus said:

 

3 man pace attack against weaker teams if all senior players are fit they all should play period.

 

Typical approach which lacks foresight.

 

26 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Rahane stinks against spin but is okay against fast bowlers , do we drop Rahane from home matches and play Rohit .Drop Rohit from away matches and play Rahane. You pick your best team and all you can do is hope that they do well in all conditions.

 

Try to choose as many all condition players as possible. I was never for choosing Rohit in test matches.

[Amit228]

2 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

To succeed in test cricket, a short pacer needs a combination of 140 k+ pace + bounce + zip off the deck + accuracy + some movement + ability to set up batsmen.

 

Shami has all the above qualities.

 

Shardul lacks some of these qualities.

 

You did not read properly.  I said that Shardul lacks the pace + accuracy combo needed for a short pacer.  ( Shami has it )

 

 

 

 

 

It is not an either or approach.

 

To be a really good pacer the need is ....

 

Pace ( for his height ) + bounce + zip off the deck + accuracy + some movement + a good bouncer + ability to set up batsmen.

 

If a pacer is medium-fast then he needs more of the other qualities. As simple as that.

 

Shardul lacks most of the other qualities too.

 

So u completely scorned off domestic cricket nd it's value.. just to raise stakes for saini?? Given that both thakur nd saini has similar bowling averages..

 

How did shorter thakur matched saini in domestic given his shortcomings?

 

How did u deduce that thakur lacks in most of the qualities.. nd saini doesn't?

 

Did u saw thakur bowling in a international test match along side saini to come to this conclusion... As u have completely scorned off value of their domestic record.. so how did u figured thakur will fail nd saini (who lacks in consistency and movement) will succeed when they both have similar domestic record.. nd Haven't played any full international test match yet.

[putrevus]

1 minute ago, express bowling said:

 

I did not say 2 sets of teams. I said play just 1 new player against weaker teams.

 

You don't read properly.

 

 

Typical approach which lacks foresight.

 

 

Try to choose as many all condition players as possible. I was never for choosing Rohit in test matches.

What you are saying is good in theory but it hurts player who is being dropped for no reason.Why would the big three want to be rested to get some wickets against weaker teams when they doing actual slogging against tougher teams.

 

India plays so many A tours and these players should be playing in other formats which they are doing.

 

These are players you are dealing with and their emotion and careers, Any player can understand if he is dropped for a better player but to be dropped for player just to give experience is ridiculous.

 

Why play Pujara  in home tests against so called weak teams. Why not give new batsman their debut so they are ready for Australia or New Zealand away from home, I don't think India will miss Pujara much in home tests.

[Real McCoy]

This has to be one of the dumbest threads I must have witnessed. Here is Saini playing his first test and people have opinions like this. Having said I was surprised today that the tv screen dispalyed his first class average which is 28 I would imagine some pace sensation like him should average in the low 20s atleast in the first class level to be called a pace sensation He sure has pace but he did not bowl at full tilt today. @express bowling any reasons? I have seen him bowl 150s and trouble batsmen last year. What happened. He was barely touching 145 that too rarely. Both him and Bumrah were grunting when bowling bouncers. I could understand Bumrah because he needs some rest but Saini should be up and ready for his debut test. I heard the commentary from the original feed and someone aussie homer catering to Aussie audience was saying "Indian medium pacers". And to be honest our pacers rarely bowled pace today. I saw Labu standing way outside the crease. Bowling coach must be given a kick up his arse. bowlers are dropping like flies and cant bowl quick. whats happening.

[express bowling]

3 minutes ago, Amit228 said:

So u completely scorned off domestic cricket nd it's value.. just to raise stakes for saini?? Given that both thakur nd saini has similar bowling averages..

 

 

I never consider domestic performances as the sole parameter for choosing international players.

 

It is just one of the parameters ... provided the player has other qualities needed for international cricket.

 

Every selector, captain and coach follow this approach too.

 

 

 

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, Amit228 said:

 

How did shorter thakur matched saini in domestic given his shortcomings?

 

 

Some of the best pacers in Ranji Trophy have been Joginder Sharma, Rishi Dhawan, Vinay Kumar etc. 

 

Why were those medium pacers not selected ahead of Bumrah and Shami ?

 

How did the selectors know that Bumrah and Shami would be better than those Ranji greats?

 

What do you think ?

 

3 minutes ago, Amit228 said:

 

How did u deduce that thakur lacks in most of the qualities.. nd saini doesn't?

 

 

By watching them bowl in lots and lots of FC matches.

 

3 minutes ago, Amit228 said:

 

Did u saw thakur bowling in a international test match along side saini to come to this conclusion... As u have completely scorned off value of their domestic record.. so how did u figured thakur will fail nd saini (who lacks in consistency and movement) will succeed when they both have similar domestic record.. nd Haven't played any full international test match yet.

 

 

Fine ... you choose Thakur if you get the chance.