The seasonal "Sachin was not that great" thread.

[zen]

14 minutes ago, Serpico said:

Sobers, Lara, Kallis were not their team's best batsmen when they started playing in top order.. they were rookies who were sent into top order. Sobers and Lara excelled there for a period but once they became the best batsmen and senior players, they moved down the order. Here Sachin wasn't sent into top order when he started out and by the time he became best batsman, he just continued the pragmatic choice that many teams make i.e., send best bat at 4. Just because Lara's best purple patch came when he was playing at no.3 doesn't make him the ideal top order batsman.. who knows what that avg would have been if he hasn't moved to no.4. At one point, Ponting averaged 68 at no.3.. but by the time he stopped playing at 3, that came down to 56. Lara was wiser and made the move earlier in his career than punter

 

The larger point is that these batsmen have a good track record in top order (irrespective of the paths they chose), while Tendulkar does not .... In lieu of his lack of track record in the top order (for whatever reasons - dog ate his homework), if we consider the point of entry of 100 or less runs, he loses out there as well 

 

Edited January 4, 2021 by zen

[sandeep]

13 minutes ago, zen said:

 

<snip>

 

 

hey not to interrupt, but quick question - Is 70 greater than 38? 

[zen]

12 minutes ago, sandeep said:

 

hey not to interrupt, but quick question - Is 70 greater than 38? 

 

as 43 > 15, 57 > 51, and as below 56 > 47

 

Primary team India  or South Africa

Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka  or West Indies

Start of match date between 1 Jan 2000 and 1 Jan 2014

Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 5000

Ordered by batting average (descending)

 

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
JH Kallis (SA)	2000-2013	123	215	27	10540	224	56.06	22044	47.81	37	45	13	1204	74
AB de Villiers (SA)	2004-2013	83	141	15	6613	278*	52.48	12090	54.69	18	33	2	746	45
HM Amla (SA)	2004-2013	69	121	10	5664	311*	51.02	10865	52.13	19	26	6	702	8
R Dravid (INDIA)	2000-2012	114	205	23	9190	270	50.49	21718	42.31	25	41	5	1144	15
VVS Laxman (INDIA)	2000-2012	109	185	30	7758	281	50.05	15643	49.59	16	50	11	998	4
V Sehwag (INDIA)	2001-2013	96	168	4	8151	319	49.70	9917	82.19	23	28	16	1161	88
GC Smith (SA)	2002-2013	103	186	13	8303	277	47.99	14177	58.56	23	37	10	1043	18
SR Tendulkar (INDIA)	2000-2013	114	195	16	8445	241*	47.17	15914	53.06	21	43	7	1100	36

[Serpico]

1 hour ago, zen said:

Kallis has a track record in the top order .... excluding BD and Zim, avgs 43 in 45 tests .... Avg goes up to 57 in MO  .... Tendulkar, of course has no track record in the top order (only one game) and avgs 51 in MO excl BD and Zim. Based on that screen shot, Sachin does well at the point of entry of 100 or more runs 

You're assuming that his average went up only because he moved to no.4. Correlation doesn't always imply causation. The time frame of these innings has more importance than simple position change. Kallis averaged 41 with bat in his first 51 tests. Since his 52nd test, he averaged 58 until his final match. In these initial 51 tests, he batted in MO sometimes (12 matches) and averaged same 41 in MO too. So if moving to MO is the only reason Kallis batting became better, how come he didn't average 57 in these 12 matches? The better reasoning could be that, over time as Kallis gained more experience, he became better batsman. He also focused less on his bowling during this time which could be another reason. This period simply coincided the period he moved to MO.. merely moving to MO didn't make him a better batsman. Moving to MO didn't improve Lara/Ponting/Viv's numbers for example so your line of argument that moving to MO will make anyone better batsman and give them better stats doesn't really hold up. 

 

Btw, the biggest difference between Kallis avg and Tendu's avg is their performances against each other's countries. Kallis averages 69 against India while Sachin averages 42 against Saffers.. probably because in their era, saffers had way better bowlers than India. If you remove those two countries and compare them against common opposition they played against, you can see they pretty much average same. Sachin 52.4 and Kallis 51. Sachin was better against aus, sri lanka and england while kallis was better against nz, wi and pak. Just because Kallis didn't have to play against second best bowling attack in his era, his numbers flatter you. 

Edited January 4, 2021 by Serpico

[Rasgulla]

3 hours ago, sandeep said:

There have been dozens of times where Tendulkar has batted against  the new ball with paltry team scores on the board.  No?

NO 

He is is a coward that's why he hides at No.4 spot in Tests. Lucky for him Dravid used to play lot of defence making that ball old before him. 

 

[sandeep]

15 minutes ago, zen said:

repetitive copy-paste-snipped.

 

 

70 > 38, as is shown below.  Thus endeth the lesson.   Kallis in the 90s was in the Debang Gandhi class of batsmen, while Tendulkar was in the stratosphere of the 70+ batting average.

 

Debang Gandhi ki aukaat.

 

 

Edited January 4, 2021 by sandeep

[sandeep]

9 minutes ago, Rasgulla said:

NO 

He is is a coward that's why he hides at No.4 spot in Tests. Lucky for him Dravid used to play lot of defence making that ball old before him. 

 

Dravid had to be hidden at #6 in the iconic Kolkata series - because he stank it up balls against that top Australian team - both home and away.  Lost the #3 spot to VVS for almost 2 years.  To his credit, Dravid improved and got his act together and became a much better batsman later on, in the 2000s, and was able to stat-pad his way to some flawed comparisons.  But you don't compare a Bajaj to a BMW.  Or maybe some folks do.

 

Next you folks will be telling me that pawns in chess are more valuable than the queen, because they "start" out front.  

 

 

Edited January 4, 2021 by sandeep

[goose]

first up i need everyone's year of birth if you want a Tendulkar debate

 

second, in December 2002, the much respected Wisden published it's top ten test batsman of ALL time.

 

here it is :

 

Test Batsmen:
Don Bradman
Sachin Tendulkar
Viv Richards
Garry Sobers
Allan Border
Jack Hobbs
K Barrington
Sunil Gavaskar
Greg Chappel
Brian Lara

 

what i'd like to know from all you stat gurus is one batting record Tendulkar held at this time, name just one. careers runs? no. highest average ever? no. most test tons? no. think about that for one second. not a single statistic you can point to, yet somehow the votes put him second to only Bradman. so dates of birth please. statistics are irrelevant.

 

 

 

 

 

[zen]

33 minutes ago, Serpico said:

You're assuming that his average went up only because he moved to no.4. Correlation doesn't always imply causation. The time frame of these innings has more importance than simple position change. Kallis averaged 41 with bat in his first 51 tests. Since his 52nd test, he averaged 58 until his final match. In these initial 51 tests, he batted in MO sometimes (12 matches) and averaged same 41 in MO too. So if moving to MO is the only reason Kallis batting became better, how come he didn't average 57 in these 12 matches? The better reasoning could be that, over time as Kallis gained more experience, he became better batsman. He also focused less on his bowling during this time which could be another reason. This period simply coincided the period he moved to MO.. merely moving to MO didn't make him a better batsman.

 

Btw, the biggest difference between Kallis avg and Tendu's avg is their performances against each other's countries. Kallis averages 69 against India while Sachin averages 42 against Saffers.. probably because in their era, saffers had way better bowlers than India. If you remove those two countries and compare them against common opposition they played against, you can see they pretty much average same. Sachin 52.4 and Kallis 51. Sachin was better against aus, sri lanka and england while kallis was better against nz, wi and pak. Just because Kallis didn't have to play second best bowling attack in his era, his numbers flatter you. 

 

I am not assuming anything (you are assuming that I am assuming) but highlighting that Kallis has a better output and therefore better as: 

 

a) Batted in both top and middle order. Avgs higher than Tendulkar in the middle order. In top order, there is no comparison 

b) More effective when team's score is 100 or less (already discussed) 

c) Achieved those #s while bowling too

 

There are no excuses required 

 

 

Quote

Moving to MO didn't improve Lara/Ponting/Viv's numbers for example so your line of argument that moving to MO will make anyone better batsman and give them better stats doesn't really hold up. 

 

The point is simple -> top specialist batsmen (those being discussed) have good records in both top and middle order (a Kallis can avg 43 in top order, 57 in MO, a X can avg 57 in top order and 43 in MO) .... Tendulkar (for whatever reasons - including dog ate his homework) does not. In lieu of his lack of record in the top order, if we consider point of entry #s, he falters there too relative to Kallis 

 

On top of that over a period of over 100 tests in (114 of 184 tests excluding BD and Zim) the 21st century, he is not been even Ind's best: 

 

Primary team India  or South Africa

Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka  or West Indies

Start of match date between 1 Jan 2000 and 1 Jan 2014

Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 5000

Ordered by batting average (descending)

 

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
JH Kallis (SA)	2000-2013	123	215	27	10540	224	56.06	22044	47.81	37	45	13	1204	74
AB de Villiers (SA)	2004-2013	83	141	15	6613	278*	52.48	12090	54.69	18	33	2	746	45
HM Amla (SA)	2004-2013	69	121	10	5664	311*	51.02	10865	52.13	19	26	6	702	8
R Dravid (INDIA)	2000-2012	114	205	23	9190	270	50.49	21718	42.31	25	41	5	1144	15
VVS Laxman (INDIA)	2000-2012	109	185	30	7758	281	50.05	15643	49.59	16	50	11	998	4
V Sehwag (INDIA)	2001-2013	96	168	4	8151	319	49.70	9917	82.19	23	28	16	1161	88
GC Smith (SA)	2002-2013	103	186	13	8303	277	47.99	14177	58.56	23	37	10	1043	18
SR Tendulkar (INDIA)	2000-2013	114	195	16	8445	241*	47.17	15914	53.06	21	43	7	1100	36

 

Irrespective of batting positions:

Tendulkar:  continuous 114 of 184 (62%) tests = avg 47 ..... 2000-2013 = majority of his career 

Kallis: continuous 123 of 154 (80%) tests = avg 56 

 

 

Tendulkar's avg of 47 above could be because of a) dog ate his homework, b) forget to charge his mobile phone, c) did not sleep well, d) watched a scary movie at night that impacted his batting, e) had a minor trouble in his left toe that led to his bat going down at an angle, f) and so on .... while Kallis would avg despite the same or a) he had a great breakfast, b) he played a nice video game, c) his bed was comfortable, d) his alarm was set at 6 am, e) etc. 

Edited January 4, 2021 by zen

[zen]

14 minutes ago, sandeep said:

 

 

70 > 38, as is shown below.  Thus endeth the lesson.   Kallis in the 90s was in the Debang Gandhi class of batsmen, while Tendulkar was in the stratosphere of the 70+ batting average.

 

Debang Gandhi ki aukaat.

 

 

 

1996 to 1999 (and that too after debuting in international cricket in 1989) .... /end of his story

 

 

Edited January 4, 2021 by zen

[Rasgulla]

15 minutes ago, sandeep said:

 

 

70 > 38, as is shown below.  Thus endeth the lesson.   Kallis in the 90s was in the Debang Gandhi class of batsmen, while Tendulkar was in the stratosphere of the 70+ batting average.

 

Debang Gandhi ki aukaat.

 

 

96 to 99 wtf is this cherry picking stats lmao. Surely Zen can do the same for Kallis. You are losing the plot now！

[zen]

5 minutes ago, Rasgulla said:

96 to 99 wtf is this cherry picking stats lmao. Surely Zen can do the same for Kallis. You are losing the plot now！

 

My buddy has ended the discussion by implying that Sachin career is only worth 4 years of comparison

 

No one should be rated as the greatest or among the top 5 batsmen of AT based on a partly 4 years 

[goose]

strong manjrekar mood in this thread

[Rasgulla]

5 minutes ago, zen said:

 

My buddy has ended the discussion by implying that Sachin career is only worth 4 years of comparison

 

No one should be rated as the greatest or among the top 5 batsmen of AT based on a partly 4 years 

So he is a passenger for rest of his cricket career if we leave that 3 years？ The guy was indeed lucky Dravid was there before him. Amount of times our openers failed in SENA poor guy has to face  New ball and TUk TUK TUK just for this monster fraud to come in and take advantage of that. He is good player but Great idk man very questionable. We shouldn't forget Kallis is a proper proper allrounder where he had to bowl every match in 2 innings. That itself is incredible.

Edited January 4, 2021 by Rasgulla

[zen]

14 minutes ago, Rasgulla said:

So he is a passenger for rest of his cricket career ？ The guy was indeed lucky Dravid was there before him. Amount of times our openers failed in SENA poor guy has to face  New ball and TUk TUK TUK just for this monster fraud to come in and take advantage of that. He is good player but Great idk man very questionable.

 

Not a passenger as he would have his moments occasionally too but a case of his whole career hyped based on that 1996 to 1999 period 

 

From 1999 to 2013 (14 years of his career) comprising continuous 124 tests covering 9500 runs v major teams, he has NOT been able to avg 50 for e.g. (and had a head start to his career by debuting in 1989, getting used to international cricket a lot earlier);

 

Primary team Australia or Bangladesh  or England  or India or New Zealand or Pakistan  or South Africa or Sri Lanka or West Indies or Zimbabwe

Opposition team Australia or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa or Sri Lanka or West Indies

Start of match date between 1 Jan 1999 and 1 Jan 2014

Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 5000

Ordered by batting average (descending)

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
JH Kallis (SA)	1999-2013	131	228	30	11191	224	56.52	23888	46.84	39	49	14	1259	76
BC Lara (WI)	1999-2006	69	127	3	6776	400*	54.64	11641	58.20	22	22	13	850	60
Inzamam-ul-Haq (PAK)	1999-2007	60	103	9	5103	329	54.28	9267	55.06	16	25	6	631	30
S Chanderpaul (WI)	1999-2013	104	185	33	8146	203*	53.59	18810	43.30	23	43	11	868	30
RT Ponting (AUS)	1999-2012	138	241	25	11519	257	53.32	19107	60.28	37	51	17	1311	61
KC Sangakkara (SL)	2000-2014	100	178	14	8704	287	53.07	16580	52.49	26	36	8	1074	26
MJ Clarke (AUS)	2004-2013	98	167	17	7908	329*	52.72	14095	56.10	26	27	8	891	36
AB de Villiers (SA)	2004-2013	83	141	15	6613	278*	52.48	12090	54.69	18	33	2	746	45
HM Amla (SA)	2004-2013	69	121	10	5664	311*	51.02	10865	52.13	19	26	6	702	8
MEK Hussey (AUS)	2005-2013	77	134	16	5993	195	50.78	12089	49.57	18	29	12	658	38
ML Hayden (AUS)	2000-2009	89	162	13	7507	203	50.38	12552	59.80	26	26	10	924	66
R Dravid (INDIA)	1999-2012	124	224	24	10055	270	50.27	23756	42.32	29	42	5	1251	16
V Sehwag (INDIA)	2001-2013	96	168	4	8151	319	49.70	9917	82.19	23	28	16	1161	88
Mohammad Yousuf (PAK)	1999-2010	76	135	7	6357	223	49.66	12083	52.61	20	26	10	786	46
Younis Khan (PAK)	2000-2014	77	138	10	6334	313	49.48	12044	52.59	20	24	13	726	36
SR Tendulkar (INDIA)	1999-2013	124	214	19	9533	241*	48.88	17842	53.43	26	47	10	1234	39
JL Langer (AUS)	1999-2007	84	149	11	6630	250	48.04	11570	57.30	21	23	6	825	38
GC Smith (SA)	2002-2013	103	186	13	8303	277	47.99	14177	58.56	23	37	10	1043	18
DPMD Jayawardene (SL)	1999-2014	114	201	10	9133	374	47.81	18033	50.64	25	38	13	1079	42
VVS Laxman (INDIA)	1999-2012	115	197	30	7979	281	47.77	16150	49.40	16	51	13	1028	4
KP Pietersen (ENG)	2005-2013	99	172	6	7830	227	47.16	12776	61.28	23	32	10	938	77
AC Gilchrist (AUS)	1999-2008	89	130	19	5143	204*	46.33	6286	81.81	15	25	14	632	85
AN Cook (ENG)	2006-2013	97	174	9	7632	294	46.25	16442	46.41	23	35	7	879	8
HH Gibbs (SA)	1999-2008	73	129	6	5385	228	43.78	10740	50.13	12	24	10	773	37
IR Bell (ENG)	2004-2013	91	161	19	6071	235	42.75	12610	48.14	17	37	11	717	26
CH Gayle (WI)	2000-2013	85	151	5	6000	333	41.09	9908	60.55	12	31	13	855	83
ME Trescothick (ENG)	2000-2006	70	135	9	5172	219	41.04	9713	53.24	11	27	12	749	33
MP Vaughan (ENG)	1999-2008	76	139	8	5319	197	40.60	10491	50.70	17	16	9	680	22
AJ Strauss (ENG)	2004-2012	96	173	6	6774	177	40.56	14000	48.38	21	24	15	838	9
RR Sarwan (WI)	2000-2011	79	142	6	5095	291	37.46	10963	46.47	13	28	12	641	13

 

 

 

Edited January 4, 2021 by zen

[zen]

@Rasgulla @Real McCoy

 

A fun exercise:

 

 

 

• v major teams, Kallis top order avg = 43
• Rough avg at the point of entry of 100 or less runs = 56
• Rough avg of Tendulkar at that point = 46 
• So if we relate it with Kallis, Tendulkar, if he batted in top order, his avg could be even less (avg 15 in 1 test) .... 35, if discounted by the same % as Kallis' 

 

 

Edited January 4, 2021 by zen

[sandeep]

2 hours ago, Rasgulla said:

96 to 99 wtf is this cherry picking stats lmao. Surely Zen can do the same for Kallis. You are losing the plot now！

He did.  Which is why I responded in his style.  In the thread above, I have already explained that a more objective comparison would be for both player's 'best years' - take 10 to 12 years starting from their 2nd or 3rd year in international cricket, against common opponents.  When you do that, Tendulkar comes away with the higher average, especially away from home.  

 

When someone is clearly engaging in dishonest 'discussion', you sometimes need to give an answer in their language.  More than a decade ago, on a "different" ICF, there was a guy named Anil, who was a mod, and wrote up an 'article' claiming Agarkar is better than a McGrath or Akram, based on ODI SR - and I responded with a very similar write-up comparing the ODI SR of Symonds to Tendy.  All in good fun.  Some old'timers on here might remember, maybe @coffee_rules ?  Maybe a couple of others who date back to that time.

Edited January 4, 2021 by sandeep

[sandeep]

2 hours ago, zen said:

 

Not a passenger as he would have his moments occasionally too but a case of his whole career hyped based on that 1996 to 1999 period 

 

From 1999 to 2013 (14 years of his career) comprising continuous 124 tests covering 9500 runs v major teams, he has NOT been able to avg 50 for e.g. (and had a head start to his career by debuting in 1989, getting used to international cricket a lot earlier);

 

 

 

You repeatedly insist on cherry-picking a slice of Tendulkar's career, especially one with his last couple of years, for obvious reasons.   Compare any batsman post 1970, by using 10-12 years of their career from either debut year, or a couple of years after.  Your choice.  And that will spell it out.  Just because Tendulkar was so good that he could add another 12 years to his career playing as a shadow of his prime, while other batsmen barely manage a year or so once they reach that stage, will obviously bring his cumulative stats down.  

[zen]

2 hours ago, sandeep said:

 

You repeatedly insist on cherry-picking a slice of Tendulkar's career, especially one with his last couple of years, for obvious reasons.   Compare any batsman post 1970, by using 10-12 years of their career from either debut year, or a couple of years after.  Your choice.  And that will spell it out.  Just because Tendulkar was so good that he could add another 12 years to his career playing as a shadow of his prime, while other batsmen barely manage a year or so once they reach that stage, will obviously bring his cumulative stats down.  

 

It spells out nothing unless you think Tendulkar should have retired in 1999 at the age of 25-26   (and when it has also been seen that he needs the score to be 100 or more to be more effective, has no track record in top order, and so on) ....  Just because he started at 16 (playing for Ind), does not mean others careers' (who started relatively late therefore shorter) are less meaningful .... By 1999, Tendulkar had 10 years of international experience so ideally should have had better numbers in the 21st century 

 

Are you implying that Kapil who played 131 tests should only be compared with Holding or Hadlee for some 60-86 of his tests? And that he gets a free pass for 45-71 tests - when he is representing Ind, there is no free ride? Once a threshold of sufficient # of tests, wkts, runs is passed, it depends upon output 

 

 

 

FYI, Ponting had a great peak too b/w 2000-2006 .... Dravid also avg 59 over a 7 years period 

Primary team Australia or England or India  or New Zealand or Pakistan or South Africa  or Sri Lanka  or West Indies

Opposition team Australia or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka or West Indies

Start of match date between 1 Jan 2000 and 1 Jan 2007

Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 3000

Ordered by batting average (descending)

 

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
RT Ponting (AUS)	2000-2006	69	120	18	6612	257	64.82	10490	63.03	25	22	5	772	42
R Dravid (INDIA)	2000-2006	60	105	14	5331	270	58.58	12556	42.45	14	25	3	660	8
Mohammad Yousuf (PAK)	2000-2006	51	86	4	4780	223	58.29	9024	52.96	19	14	4	590	37
Inzamam-ul-Haq (PAK)	2000-2006	49	82	7	4331	329	57.74	7760	55.81	14	22	5	531	28
JH Kallis (SA)	2000-2006	64	114	16	5426	177	55.36	12285	44.16	16	27	6	629	32
BC Lara (WI)	2000-2006	61	112	2	5944	400*	54.03	10229	58.10	19	18	13	731	52
ML Hayden (AUS)	2000-2006	74	135	11	6565	203	52.94	10985	59.76	23	24	7	810	62
V Sehwag (INDIA)	2001-2006	45	77	2	3829	309	51.05	5082	75.34	12	10	9	554	39
JL Langer (AUS)	2000-2006	70	125	10	5818	250	50.59	9771	59.54	18	20	6	753	34
VVS Laxman (INDIA)	2000-2006	55	90	12	3917	281	50.21	7973	49.12	9	22	6	547	3
DR Martyn (AUS)	2000-2006	57	93	13	3993	165	49.91	7682	51.97	13	19	6	472	9
Younis Khan (PAK)	2000-2006	45	82	5	3812	267	49.50	7085	53.80	11	16	7	465	18
KC Sangakkara (SL)	2000-2006	53	94	7	4249	287	48.83	8003	53.09	10	18	3	575	11
S Chanderpaul (WI)	2000-2006	54	97	13	4096	203*	48.76	9251	44.27	11	21	6	474	14
DPMD Jayawardene (SL)	2000-2006	59	105	6	4735	374	47.82	9224	51.33	12	21	7	582	24
GC Smith (SA)	2002-2006	43	80	5	3540	277	47.20	6047	58.54	9	15	5	463	9
AC Gilchrist (AUS)	2000-2006	77	113	17	4424	204*	46.08	5385	82.15	14	19	13	550	81
SR Tendulkar (INDIA)	2000-2006	52	87	7	3632	241*	45.40	6929	52.41	9	17	6	504	12
HH Gibbs (SA)	2000-2006	56	101	4	4362	228	44.96	8529	51.14	10	19	7	633	33
MP Vaughan (ENG)	2000-2005	56	103	7	4107	197	42.78	7746	53.02	14	12	7	527	22
ME Trescothick (ENG)	2000-2006	70	135	9	5172	219	41.04	9713	53.24	11	27	12	749	33
SP Fleming (NZ)	2000-2006	47	82	4	3093	274*	39.65	6680	46.30	6	14	9	395	12
CH Gayle (WI)	2000-2006	54	97	1	3559	317	37.07	6310	56.40	5	23	10	551	31
MS Atapattu (SL)	2000-2005	50	91	9	3030	207*	36.95	7305	41.47	9	11	12	375	1
RR Sarwan (WI)	2000-2006	57	106	6	3521	139	35.21	7998	44.02	7	23	10	458	7
ST Jayasuriya (SL)	2000-2006	53	97	5	3162	253	34.36	5040	62.73	6	13	6	429	21
A Flintoff (ENG)	2000-2006	56	95	6	3052	167	34.29	4692	65.04	5	23	13	410	71

 

Edited January 5, 2021 by zen

[Gambit]

5 hours ago, zen said:

 

Not a passenger as he would have his moments occasionally too but a case of his whole career hyped based on that 1996 to 1999 period 

 

From 1999 to 2013 (14 years of his career) comprising continuous 124 tests covering 9500 runs v major teams, he has NOT been able to avg 50 for e.g. (and had a head start to his career by debuting in 1989, getting used to international cricket a lot earlier);

 

Primary team Australia or Bangladesh  or England  or India or New Zealand or Pakistan  or South Africa or Sri Lanka or West Indies or Zimbabwe

Opposition team Australia or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa or Sri Lanka or West Indies

Start of match date between 1 Jan 1999 and 1 Jan 2014

Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 5000

Ordered by batting average (descending)

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
JH Kallis (SA)	1999-2013	131	228	30	11191	224	56.52	23888	46.84	39	49	14	1259	76
BC Lara (WI)	1999-2006	69	127	3	6776	400*	54.64	11641	58.20	22	22	13	850	60
Inzamam-ul-Haq (PAK)	1999-2007	60	103	9	5103	329	54.28	9267	55.06	16	25	6	631	30
S Chanderpaul (WI)	1999-2013	104	185	33	8146	203*	53.59	18810	43.30	23	43	11	868	30
RT Ponting (AUS)	1999-2012	138	241	25	11519	257	53.32	19107	60.28	37	51	17	1311	61
KC Sangakkara (SL)	2000-2014	100	178	14	8704	287	53.07	16580	52.49	26	36	8	1074	26
MJ Clarke (AUS)	2004-2013	98	167	17	7908	329*	52.72	14095	56.10	26	27	8	891	36
AB de Villiers (SA)	2004-2013	83	141	15	6613	278*	52.48	12090	54.69	18	33	2	746	45
HM Amla (SA)	2004-2013	69	121	10	5664	311*	51.02	10865	52.13	19	26	6	702	8
MEK Hussey (AUS)	2005-2013	77	134	16	5993	195	50.78	12089	49.57	18	29	12	658	38
ML Hayden (AUS)	2000-2009	89	162	13	7507	203	50.38	12552	59.80	26	26	10	924	66
R Dravid (INDIA)	1999-2012	124	224	24	10055	270	50.27	23756	42.32	29	42	5	1251	16
V Sehwag (INDIA)	2001-2013	96	168	4	8151	319	49.70	9917	82.19	23	28	16	1161	88
Mohammad Yousuf (PAK)	1999-2010	76	135	7	6357	223	49.66	12083	52.61	20	26	10	786	46
Younis Khan (PAK)	2000-2014	77	138	10	6334	313	49.48	12044	52.59	20	24	13	726	36
SR Tendulkar (INDIA)	1999-2013	124	214	19	9533	241*	48.88	17842	53.43	26	47	10	1234	39
JL Langer (AUS)	1999-2007	84	149	11	6630	250	48.04	11570	57.30	21	23	6	825	38
GC Smith (SA)	2002-2013	103	186	13	8303	277	47.99	14177	58.56	23	37	10	1043	18
DPMD Jayawardene (SL)	1999-2014	114	201	10	9133	374	47.81	18033	50.64	25	38	13	1079	42
VVS Laxman (INDIA)	1999-2012	115	197	30	7979	281	47.77	16150	49.40	16	51	13	1028	4
KP Pietersen (ENG)	2005-2013	99	172	6	7830	227	47.16	12776	61.28	23	32	10	938	77
AC Gilchrist (AUS)	1999-2008	89	130	19	5143	204*	46.33	6286	81.81	15	25	14	632	85
AN Cook (ENG)	2006-2013	97	174	9	7632	294	46.25	16442	46.41	23	35	7	879	8
HH Gibbs (SA)	1999-2008	73	129	6	5385	228	43.78	10740	50.13	12	24	10	773	37
IR Bell (ENG)	2004-2013	91	161	19	6071	235	42.75	12610	48.14	17	37	11	717	26
CH Gayle (WI)	2000-2013	85	151	5	6000	333	41.09	9908	60.55	12	31	13	855	83
ME Trescothick (ENG)	2000-2006	70	135	9	5172	219	41.04	9713	53.24	11	27	12	749	33
MP Vaughan (ENG)	1999-2008	76	139	8	5319	197	40.60	10491	50.70	17	16	9	680	22
AJ Strauss (ENG)	2004-2012	96	173	6	6774	177	40.56	14000	48.38	21	24	15	838	9
RR Sarwan (WI)	2000-2011	79	142	6	5095	291	37.46	10963	46.47	13	28	12	641	13

 

 

 

 

This is what this table for this period looks like away from home without minnow West Indies against who many filled their boots after Ambrose and Walsh retired.  

 

If you do this analysis over their careers away from home, Kallis' away average is 48 - a full 8 points below his career average vs a 1 point drop for Tendulkar.