rangeelaraja Posted February 25, 2021 Author Posted February 25, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, Khota said: Let us keep it simple and honest. It is better than F-16 but not as good as F-35. it is also better than anything IAF has no doubt about it. But here is the problem, it costs a ton and will not buy any security. India can easily beat pakistan without this purchase and even with 500 of these aircrafts India cannot beat China. Threat to India is from China and with that in mind this purchase does nothing. Now look at the inventory of aircrafts India has, Mig 21, Mig 23(retd.), Mig 29, Su 30, Jaguar, Mirage 2000, Tejas and Hawk and now Rafael. To keep these flying and parts needed it is impossible to keep half of those up in a real war. This is what they should have done. Keep building Su 30 which is a very good aircraft and make 100's of Tejas quickly. IAF should only fly two aircraft Su 30 and Tejas variants. This is the most cost effective strategy and keep on developing Tejas as a staelth etc. Once again Rafael does nothing for IAF. @Khota - sticking to your name, you talk zero sense. Stick to facts. Are Chinese planes war tested ? No. None are. Rafale is and it's bloody good. When was the last time China fought an aerial war ? Rafale is not as expensive as the F35. Most ignorant people like you and your leader Raul don't realize that the per unit cost is jacked up because of the tons of unclassified ordnance including Meteor Missiles ( the best air to air missiles on the planet bar none) and Spike Missiles. We have not disclosed the number of missiles we've as a part of this package because this information because it is sensitive. But given the per unit price with ordnance - it is alot. Rafale is produced by the same Dassault Aviation whose Mirage 2000s were trusted over any of the Russian planes to do Balakot and came back unscathed. Rafale was also chosen because unlike any of the other western competitors ( where supplies could be constrained because of political factors and came in with tons of string attached...French have been super reliable defense partners of India ). And they make better planes than the Russians for now. Rafale's METEOR AAM's have a stand off range greater than F16 or F35 AMRAAMs. None of the Sukhoi AAM's are even close. METEOR's cannot be integrated on Russian platforms for obvious reasons. This is why Sukhoi's were impotent on Feb 27' 19 to take down the F16s from a stand off distance. F16's will not stand a chance in stand off fight against Rafale's armed with METEORs. Have some grey matter talk facts and sense, else GTFO. Edited February 25, 2021 by rangeelaraja LordPrabhzy, Clarke, Under_Score and 3 others 2 3 1
Khota Posted February 25, 2021 Posted February 25, 2021 3 hours ago, mishra said: Its not his fault. He supports kejriwal. It is not your fault that you are stupid. Blame your parents. Indwin 1
Khota Posted February 25, 2021 Posted February 25, 2021 1 hour ago, BacktoCricaddict said: Good post, but one thing that needs pushing back on is the "India can easily beat Pakistan ..." While that may be true, one must be proactive and plan for the future. What if Pak spends its entire budget on upgrading their fleet? In any case, it is unlikely that there will be a complete all-out Ind-Pak war and the purpose of these aircraft may be to carry out things like the surgical strikes. Quick maneuver, in-and-out before they know what hit them. This seems to be a good option for that. Of course, I know very little about aircraft capabilities etc., so take it FWIW. Pakistan is nothing comapred to India. They will go down in one week. The real threat is from China and India currently is not capable of defeating them.
Khota Posted February 25, 2021 Posted February 25, 2021 1 hour ago, rangeelaraja said: @Khota - sticking to your name, you talk zero sense. Stick to facts. Are Chinese planes war tested ? No. None are. Rafale is and it's bloody good. When was the last time China fought an aerial war ? Rafale is not as expensive as the F35. Most ignorant people like you and your leader Raul don't realize that the per unit cost is jacked up because of the tons of unclassified ordnance including Meteor Missiles ( the best air to air missiles on the planet bar none) and Spike Missiles. We have not disclosed the number of missiles we've as a part of this package because this information because it is sensitive. But given the per unit price with ordnance - it is alot. Rafale is produced by the same Dassault Aviation whose Mirage 2000s were trusted over any of the Russian planes to do Balakot and came back unscathed. Rafale was also chosen because unlike any of the other western competitors ( where supplies could be constrained because of political factors and came in with tons of string attached...French have been super reliable defense partners of India ). And they make better planes than the Russians for now. Rafale's METEOR AAM's have a stand off range greater than F16 or F35 AMRAAMs. None of the Sukhoi AAM's are even close. METEOR's cannot be integrated on Russian platforms for obvious reasons. This is why Sukhoi's were impotent on Feb 27' 19 to take down the F16s from a stand off distance. F16's will not stand a chance in stand off fight against Rafale's armed with METEORs. Have some grey matter talk facts and sense, else GTFO. Before I respond to your garbage post can you address the bolded part.
rangeelaraja Posted February 25, 2021 Author Posted February 25, 2021 23 minutes ago, Khota said: Before I respond to your garbage post can you address the bolded part. I don't owe you any explanation trashbag. I wrote facts. If you have a grey cell or two, respond with counter facts. Under_Score 1
rangeelaraja Posted February 25, 2021 Author Posted February 25, 2021 30 minutes ago, Khota said: Pakistan is nothing comapred to India. They will go down in one week. The real threat is from China and India currently is not capable of defeating them. Which Chinese planes have been used in combat EVER ? When was the last time Chinese fought an ariel war ? No facts. No brain. Pure khota. True to name. Under_Score 1
zen Posted February 25, 2021 Posted February 25, 2021 (edited) Should have been brought in earlier ... Ind's pilots are invaluable and need the best equipment (in the realms of most that Ind's budget can get) Edited February 25, 2021 by zen rangeelaraja 1
FischerTal Posted February 26, 2021 Posted February 26, 2021 Ill give a simple explanation. if anyone wants a detailed reply, ill do it later. why is the F-35 even being discussed? with India's purchase of S400, it will never be able to lay its hand on F-35. Also, IAF does not want to get sucked into buying US fighter jets because they fear nondelivery of spares during war and/or looming threat of sanctions. Also this joke comparison of Rafale vs Su-30s. Both are different classes of aircraft. Su-30 is a heavyweight whereas Rafale is a medium weight fighter. to say that either one can fulfull the other's role would be factually incorrect. As far as the Tejas argument goes, Tejas Mk2 (desi replacement for Rafale) is still a decade away. till then, IAF will need to buy a foreign fighter for its Medium Multirole requirements and IAF has developed a love for French aircrafts after the performance of M2K in Kargil, so Rafale is the natural choice for them. the most potent feature of Rafale is its weaponry, which far outranges anything Pakistan has in its arsenal and puts us at equal footing with China. however, we need more numbers to man the entire LAC as Rafale will primarily be used to counter the China threat, not Pakistan. i expect another 36 Rafales to be signed in 2022 when the latest F4 version goes in production. Clarke and coffee_rules 2
G_B_ Posted February 26, 2021 Posted February 26, 2021 18 hours ago, Clarke said: Rafale is the Swiss army knife that the air force needs and deserves. Solid & proven western tech that is extremely reliable & high availability (unlike the Russian jets we use, known problems on availability), very good overall package of peformance, radars avionics & missiles, no problem of sanctions with French, multirole jet with ground attack & capable of nuclear strike from the top of my head. I had posted this earlier in another thread, the Mirage 2000 is the king of the hill in the IAF for more than the last two decades. Kargil air strikes, Balakot strikes & post Balakot air dominance in its skirmish with the PAF where the Sukhois didn't have the range as good as Pakistani F-16s with AIM-120 missiles. The Sukhois are being upgraded and so are it's missiles but the Rafale takes the quality & superiority to the next generation at least on the western border. Eastern side it's a bit of an unknown but it's improbable that the PLAAF can dominate the IAF currently, it's top end is extremely unproven unlike ours. For those that didn't know, the IAF was keen to get a lot more of the Mirage 2000 many years back, the French had shut down it's assembly line and offered the Rafale. We went through the tender route via MMRCA & decided on Rafale a while back. Things got entangled in politics & bureaucracy on cost negotiations & corruption allegations, Modi sarkar decided on expedited purchase of a smaller number. There is a possibility of a follow up order which should certainly be exercised. Sukhois get a bad rep because they are misunderstood. The weapons load of the Sukhois means they serve a different function to Mirage 2000. Can a Mirage 2000 mount a Brahmos missile? The answer is no....In say a war with Pakistan a brahmos mounted MKI will take off from Gwalior/Southern air base and turn every Pakistani air base into dust without leaving Indian air space. But the greatest advantage of the Sukhois is that there is space to upgrade them. In the future if the Russians get the Product 30 engine for the Su57 is proven to be good it can be put on the MKI. MKI with a product 30 engine + a proven Uttam radar + Astra > Indian purchased Rafale with Meteor. There are a lot of ifs and buts in this. But a fundamental flaw of the Rafales if that after an F4 upgrade there is a totally different jet (French collaboration with Germany). The MKI can certainly integrate future tech made for the Su35 and the Su57. There is a much stronger eco system. Take the Kh32 missile the Russians are using. It proven to be a hit and India can certainly integrate it onto the MKI to take out land or seat based targets. American aircraft carriers will be sitting ducks. They have acknowledged this.
G_B_ Posted February 26, 2021 Posted February 26, 2021 and building on my post above, India should heavily invest in upgrading the Russian tech they have with indigenous solutions. Astra Uttam radar etc. In terms of making the body frame the Russians are still no 1. Where they fail is the accessories. The unsung hero of the skirmish with China was the Mig29 UPG (Indian upgrade of MiG 29). Given the Sukhois (Indian and Chinese) struggled in the thin air. The Mig29 with vertical take off and landing ability proven pivotal. I am glad we are ensuring that Tejas has this ability in the extreme cold. We excel at integration. Lets back ourselves with that. diga 1
Clarke Posted February 26, 2021 Posted February 26, 2021 38 minutes ago, G_B_ said: Sukhois get a bad rep because they are misunderstood. The weapons load of the Sukhois means they serve a different function to Mirage 2000. Can a Mirage 2000 mount a Brahmos missile? The answer is no....In say a war with Pakistan a brahmos mounted MKI will take off from Gwalior/Southern air base and turn every Pakistani air base into dust without leaving Indian air space. But the greatest advantage of the Sukhois is that there is space to upgrade them. In the future if the Russians get the Product 30 engine for the Su57 is proven to be good it can be put on the MKI. MKI with a product 30 engine + a proven Uttam radar + Astra > Indian purchased Rafale with Meteor. There are a lot of ifs and buts in this. But a fundamental flaw of the Rafales if that after an F4 upgrade there is a totally different jet (French collaboration with Germany). The MKI can certainly integrate future tech made for the Su35 and the Su57. There is a much stronger eco system. Take the Kh32 missile the Russians are using. It proven to be a hit and India can certainly integrate it onto the MKI to take out land or seat based targets. American aircraft carriers will be sitting ducks. They have acknowledged this. That is the crux of what you're saying. I'm not saying Sukhoi is not required, it will continue to be the backbone BUT when it comes to some big ticket operations & missions the Mirage has been the star performer. Yes, there are many areas where aircraft X will do better but I'm gonna work with what was the toughest task at hand & who stood up to it. Maybe the Sukhoi will have a slight edge as an overall multirole or air superiority fighter in the coming years, even if that happens how available will it be or how many engines will we need to keep rotating is also to be factored. G_B_ 1
Khota Posted February 26, 2021 Posted February 26, 2021 Once again I never said rafael is not good but please do read my post carefully. This is what I said and it implies that. India does not need rafael to beat Pakistan. India cannot beat China with 500 of Rafaels either. This was a junk purchase which does not enhance security. Moreover even US airforce cannot affort so many different aircrafts in its inventory because of spares issue. India has way too many aircrafts operational which is stupid. India would have been batter off standardizing everything around two aircrafts Su 30 and Tejas. Su 30 though not as capable as rafael can do a fairly good job if integrated with Israelis weapons. To the OP, he is naive and showing that manuver and ejaculating looking at it. That manuver has no place in modern warfare.
G_B_ Posted February 26, 2021 Posted February 26, 2021 59 minutes ago, Clarke said: That is the crux of what you're saying. I'm not saying Sukhoi is not required, it will continue to be the backbone BUT when it comes to some big ticket operations & missions the Mirage has been the star performer. Yes, there are many areas where aircraft X will do better but I'm gonna work with what was the toughest task at hand & who stood up to it. Maybe the Sukhoi will have a slight edge as an overall multirole or air superiority fighter in the coming years, even if that happens how available will it be or how many engines will we need to keep rotating is also to be factored. I would say the uttam radar and astra i am very confident on. Product 30 engine of the su57 thats where there is uncertainty..
FischerTal Posted February 26, 2021 Posted February 26, 2021 8 hours ago, G_B_ said: I would say the uttam radar and astra i am very confident on. Product 30 engine of the su57 thats where there is uncertainty.. Ruskis are asking for a bomb for AL-41F-1S upgrade.
rangeelaraja Posted February 26, 2021 Author Posted February 26, 2021 11 hours ago, G_B_ said: Sukhois get a bad rep because they are misunderstood. The weapons load of the Sukhois means they serve a different function to Mirage 2000. Can a Mirage 2000 mount a Brahmos missile? The answer is no....In say a war with Pakistan a brahmos mounted MKI will take off from Gwalior/Southern air base and turn every Pakistani air base into dust without leaving Indian air space. But the greatest advantage of the Sukhois is that there is space to upgrade them. In the future if the Russians get the Product 30 engine for the Su57 is proven to be good it can be put on the MKI. MKI with a product 30 engine + a proven Uttam radar + Astra > Indian purchased Rafale with Meteor. There are a lot of ifs and buts in this. But a fundamental flaw of the Rafales if that after an F4 upgrade there is a totally different jet (French collaboration with Germany). The MKI can certainly integrate future tech made for the Su35 and the Su57. There is a much stronger eco system. Take the Kh32 missile the Russians are using. It proven to be a hit and India can certainly integrate it onto the MKI to take out land or seat based targets. American aircraft carriers will be sitting ducks. They have acknowledged this. It is a alot more than that. The reality is that the Sukhoi's are going to be obsolete very fast. Below link contains RCS of modern jets. https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/stealth-aircraft-rcs.htm Su-30 MKI has a Radar cross section 4 - the worse in the list of modern fighter jets below. The latest Block D + F16s have RCS of 1. Rafale is 1 too. Sukhoi is great for dog fights and that is why it was elevated by IAF. But dog-fights are now obsolete in modern air warfare. It is all about stealth - see first shoot first using better Air-to-air missile capabilities None of our adversaries are going to get their dirty hands on F35 /F22 which have extra-ordinarily low RCS. Almost negligible. With Rafale we get a plane that can dominate Pakistan and China from a stand off distance with the best air-to air missiles in METEOR that money can buy. Under_Score 1
G_B_ Posted February 26, 2021 Posted February 26, 2021 1 hour ago, FischerTal said: Ruskis are asking for a bomb for AL-41F-1S upgrade. We wont go for that...
G_B_ Posted February 26, 2021 Posted February 26, 2021 26 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said: It is a alot more than that. The reality is that the Sukhoi's are going to be obsolete very fast. Below link contains RCS of modern jets. https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/stealth-aircraft-rcs.htm Su-30 MKI has a Radar cross section 4 - the worse in the list of modern fighter jets below. The latest Block D + F16s have RCS of 1. Rafale is 1 too. Sukhoi is great for dog fights and that is why it was elevated by IAF. But dog-fights are now obsolete in modern air warfare. It is all about stealth - see first shoot first using better Air-to-air missile capabilities None of our adversaries are going to get their dirty hands on F35 /F22 which have extra-ordinarily low RCS. Almost negligible. With Rafale we get a plane that can dominate Pakistan and China from a stand off distance with the best air-to air missiles in METEOR that money can buy. Rcs matters when you are operating in enemy territory and dont want to be detected. Hal tejas has a small rcs.
rangeelaraja Posted February 27, 2021 Author Posted February 27, 2021 4 hours ago, G_B_ said: Rcs matters when you are operating in enemy territory and dont want to be detected. Hal tejas has a small rcs. RCS matters every single time when 2 air-forces are engaging in air to air combat. It also matters alot when trying to evade ground based radar systems. If RCS was not of the utmost importance than the most modern airforces in the world would not prioritize stealth specs . After all it is stealth that reduces RCS. Under_Score 1
Clarke Posted February 27, 2021 Posted February 27, 2021 (edited) 9 hours ago, rangeelaraja said: It is a alot more than that. The reality is that the Sukhoi's are going to be obsolete very fast. Below link contains RCS of modern jets. https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/stealth-aircraft-rcs.htm Su-30 MKI has a Radar cross section 4 - the worse in the list of modern fighter jets below. The latest Block D + F16s have RCS of 1. Rafale is 1 too. Sukhoi is great for dog fights and that is why it was elevated by IAF. But dog-fights are now obsolete in modern air warfare. It is all about stealth - see first shoot first using better Air-to-air missile capabilities None of our adversaries are going to get their dirty hands on F35 /F22 which have extra-ordinarily low RCS. Almost negligible. With Rafale we get a plane that can dominate Pakistan and China from a stand off distance with the best air-to air missiles in METEOR that money can buy. I'm not sure these large air superiority fighters turned multi-roles such as F-15 (other than the silent eagle) & Su series become outright obsolete. I am on board with the 4.5 gen aircraft in IAF and 5th gen development but these bigger & heavier planes have greater capacity to carry missiles/bombs & bigger engines that can power more powerful radars with greater jamming abilities, at least from the limited info I read. RCS although important isn't always the deciding factor in air to air combat, else we'd have tiny drones carrying one hidden missile completely replace air superiority fighters. There's also the time tested ground hugging option that strike aircraft have used for decades to evade radar, which is why we operate updated Jaguars to this day. Edited February 27, 2021 by Clarke
G_B_ Posted February 27, 2021 Posted February 27, 2021 The Himalayas act as a natural rcs reducer. An mki taking off on the background of the this mountain range will have a hugely reduced rcs. The global security data is outdated. Rcs of 4 has reduced due to several strategies employed. In the 2019 pakistan failed to pick up our mig21 due to this masking effect. As clark mentioned, the ground hugging fighter jet is hard to detect. With its 3000 radius and refueling options we can attack at sea
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