Fauci and gain-of-function research thread.

[BacktoCricaddict]

43 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

Although, I’d preferred  he debunked  your SoyBoy theory first. At this point, Fauci’s flipflops on Wuhan , Masks is disconcerting 

Fauci is a scientist, not a CEO or politician.  He cannot speak in absolutes.  At the time, most of the early evidence pointed to zoonotic origins.  So, at that time he would say "Most evidence points to X"  "We do not have enough evidence for Y."   As one of the earlier posts in this thread shows, he was willing to listen to scientists who felt lab origins were a valid hypothesis, but how could we expect him to publicly acknowledge that until the evidence was stronger?   But when more evidence becomes available, you open your mind a bit more.  

 

Analogy:  I know I am just a jujubi ICF poster, but here is a comparison:  I changed my stance on Ivermectin.  Started with skepticism.  When proof became available, I accepted it.  Is that flip-flopping?  And even if it is, isn't that a good thing?  Most problems arise when people stick to their guns even in the face of evidence that they are mistaken.  

 

The mask thing, I agree, was a full-on fiasco.  His intent was to prevent toilet-paper Americans from becoming mask-hoarders too, and not have masks available for HCWs.  The shameful issue there is that the US was so unprepared that they didn't have enough masks.  

 

Edited June 4, 2021 by BacktoCricaddict

[rkt.india]

1 hour ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

Fauci is a scientist, not a CEO or politician.  He cannot speak in absolutes.  At the time, most of the early evidence pointed to zoonotic origins.  So, at that time he would say "Most evidence points to X"  "We do not have enough evidence for Y."   As one of the earlier posts in this thread shows, he was willing to listen to scientists who felt lab origins were a valid hypothesis, but how could we expect him to publicly acknowledge that until the evidence was stronger?   But when more evidence becomes available, you open your mind a bit more.  

 

Analogy:  I know I am just a jujubi ICF poster, but here is a comparison:  I changed my stance on Ivermectin.  Started with skepticism.  When proof became available, I accepted it.  Is that flip-flopping?  And even if it is, isn't that a good thing?  Most problems arise when people stick to their guns even in the face of evidence that they are mistaken.  

 

The mask thing, I agree, was a full-on fiasco.  His intent was to prevent toilet-paper Americans from becoming mask-hoarders too, and not have masks available for HCWs.  The shameful issue there is that the US was so unprepared that they didn't have enough masks.  

 

Don't get how it pointed to zoonotics. This thing started on a city where a virology lab existed while there was no bat habitat anywhere near the city. In fact, no where close. So first possibility should have always been the virus lab which existed in the city. In fact, from the China intentionally misguided people by spreading videos of wet markets. That was just a tactic to create a perception about the place, to keep the attention away from the lab. Well planned propaganda that was and people started believing it as it was everywhere tv, FB, whatsapp forwards.

[coffee_rules]

Twitter Suspends Organization for Announcing They Will Release More Fauci Emails

 

What’s big deal? Those could be scientists’ talk only. Why are they afraid?

[BacktoCricaddict]

35 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

Twitter Suspends Organization for Announcing They Will Release More Fauci Emails

 

What’s big deal? Those could be scientists’ talk only. Why are they afraid?

Exactly.  Just get it all out there.

[BacktoCricaddict]

50 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Don't get how it pointed to zoonotics. This thing started on a city where a virology lab existed while there was no bat habitat anywhere near the city. In fact, no where close. So first possibility should have always been the virus lab which existed in the city. In fact, from the China intentionally misguided people by spreading videos of wet markets. That was just a tactic to create a perception about the place, to keep the attention away from the lab. Well planned propaganda that was and people started believing it as it was everywhere tv, FB, whatsapp forwards.

Google RaTG13.

[rkt.india]

17 minutes ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

Google RaTG13.

Yunnan is 2000 km away from Wuhan.

[BacktoCricaddict]

20 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Yunnan is 2000 km away from Wuhan.

(1) People travel.  

(2) Two competing hypotheses:  

• (a) Zoonotic:  Valid hypothesis, based on previous coronaviruses (SARS and MERS) shown to be zoonotic.  Easy to test.  So, logical choice to test first.  Getting bat/pangolin samples is easier than getting permission to check what's going on in the lab.  Sequence analysis is easy to do.  Data started coming quickly and pointed to RaTG13 variants.  https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2012-7.  Given this situation, you could not dismiss this (esp in light of the origins of previous coronaviruses).  I have still not dismissed it completely. 

• (b) Lab leak:  Valid hypothesis, based on WIV presence in Wuhan.  But difficult to test - getting access, finding data, confirming it (see earlier link in this thread), getting eyewitnesses etc etc.  The authorities did not dismiss it (as seen in Fauci's emails), but the evidence was only trickling in, and as such, could not be discussed in public.  But now, we know more and it has emerged as more plausible.  

 

Anyone who *knew* 1 year ago that China did it was blowing smoke up our ar$es.  

 

I agree on one thing - the zoonotic supporters were dead sure they were right.  The whole pangolin intermediate etc was thrown out there as if it were a foregone conclusion rather than a possible route.  Vegans and nature-lovers and keyboard environmentalists were going crazy that humans have ruined everything etc.  Ridiculous.     

Edited June 4, 2021 by BacktoCricaddict

[coffee_rules]

1 hour ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

(1) People travel.  

(2) Two competing hypotheses:  

• (a) Zoonotic:  Valid hypothesis, based on previous coronaviruses (SARS and MERS) shown to be zoonotic.  Easy to test.  So, logical choice to test first.  Getting bat/pangolin samples is easier than getting permission to check what's going on in the lab.  Sequence analysis is easy to do.  Data started coming quickly and pointed to RaTG13 variants.  https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2012-7.  Given this situation, you could not dismiss this (esp in light of the origins of previous coronaviruses).  I have still not dismissed it completely. 

• (b) Lab leak:  Valid hypothesis, based on WIV presence in Wuhan.  But difficult to test - getting access, finding data, confirming it (see earlier link in this thread), getting eyewitnesses etc etc.  The authorities did not dismiss it (as seen in Fauci's emails), but the evidence was only trickling in, and as such, could not be discussed in public.  But now, we know more and it has emerged as more plausible.  

 

Anyone who *knew* 1 year ago that China did it was blowing smoke up our ar$es.  

 

    

I know you are defending a fellow man of science, but in 2019, nobody believed China was innocent with their disclosures. And WHO defending China was caught as well. Media gag on Wuhan theory cannot be ignored, not that Fauci is culpable, he is being made the fall guy here. He was part of an admin, not a mere scientist, people were looking at him for direction. He is definitely an accoladable  scientist and definitely not competent for the job of Chief Medical adviser to the Prez.

 

 

Now he seems to be the front for damage control. So he is so naive to ask China for disclosure? China says to UN that Tiananmen Square was a peaceful mission. There needs to be an independent commissions investigating Wuhan or sanctions on China needs to be imposed, there is no point asking for disclosure and give them clean chit. I am very sure Biden is capable of doing it.

[BacktoCricaddict]

3 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

I know you are defending a fellow man of science, but in 2019, nobody believed China was innocent with their disclosures. And WHO defending China was caught as well. Media gag on Wuhan theory cannot be ignored, not that Fauci is culpable, he is being made the fall guy here. He was part of an admin, not a mere scientist, people were looking at him for direction. He is definitely an accoladable  scientist and definitely not competent for the job of Chief Medical adviser to the Prez.

 

 

Now he seems to be the front for damage control. So he is so naive to ask China for disclosure? China says to UN that Tiananmen Square was a peaceful mission. There needs to be an independent commissions investigating Wuhan or sanctions on China needs to be imposed, there is no point asking for disclosure and give them clean chit. I am very sure Biden is capable of doing it.

All fair points.

[Gollum]

On 6/3/2021 at 2:03 AM, Gollum said:

This is what happens when men consume too much soy

 

Literally fell off my chair when they greeted him...Hi Doctor Fauci lmao

 

 

 

5 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

Although, I’d preferred  he debunked  your SoyBoy theory first. At this point, Fauci’s flipflops on Wuhan , Masks is disconcerting 

My SoyBoy theory, dude it is truth!!!!! Watch the 1st 30 sec of that video and let me know again, even @Real McCoy will tell you the same thing. #StopConsumingSoyProducts

[MechEng]

On 6/3/2021 at 2:03 AM, Gollum said:

This is what happens when men consume too much soy

 

Literally fell off my chair when they greeted him...Hi Doctor Fauci lmao

 

 

 

You find them mostly in California and NYC 

[rkt.india]

On 6/3/2021 at 2:03 AM, Gollum said:

This is what happens when men consume too much soy

 

Literally fell off my chair when they greeted him...Hi Doctor Fauci lmao

 

 

 

 

[vvvslaxman]

Right wing lunatics in USA need some distraction from January 6th insurrection lol. 

[coffee_rules]

19 hours ago, Gollum said:

 

My SoyBoy theory, dude it is truth!!!!! Watch the 1st 30 sec of that video and let me know again, even @Real McCoy will tell you the same thing. #StopConsumingSoyProducts

jokes aside, it is not true. Beer , just like Soy, has the most estrogenic phytoestrogen. You don’t call Beer drinkers as BeerBoyz!

 

”Beer containsphytoestrogen and prolactin. These two chemicals can increase the estrogen levels your body produces. ... These two estrogen-increasing chemicals are typically found in hops and barley, which of course, are two of the most common ingredients in beer.”

[ravishingravi]

So Dr Fauci, let me concede for sake of argument,is no Management guy. He made a judgement based on evidence in his expert view. Question is did we have any experts with contrary opinion based on same evidence. Yes, in Mar 2020. Now this by itself doesn’t implicate Fauci. However What does make it fishy or batty now is that he had an interest in the lab functioning in Wuhan and his clear public views on gain of function. 
 

For me one has to do some major intellectual gymnastics to actually give him clean chit. Circumstantial evidence is piling up. 

 

 

[BacktoCricaddict]

 

 

26 minutes ago, ravishingravi said:

So Dr Fauci, let me concede for sake of argument,is no Management guy. He made a judgement based on evidence in his expert view. Question is did we have any experts with contrary opinion based on same evidence. Yes, in Mar 2020. Now this by itself doesn’t implicate Fauci. However What does make it fishy or batty now is that he had an interest in the lab functioning in Wuhan and his clear public views on gain of function. 
 

For me one has to do some major intellectual gymnastics to actually give him clean chit. Circumstantial evidence is piling up. 

 

Problem is Montagnier has jumped off the deep end over the years with some pretty kooky, evidence-free claims and ruined his own credibility:

 

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/330/6012/1732.summary

 

https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2011/01/10/has_luc_montagnier_lost_it

 

So, like for the millionth time (and that too just on ICF; I do this same stuff in other places too):  The evidence in Feb 2020 was scant.  Anyone who claimed it so confidently then was not to be believed.  Even I had mentioned lab leak as a possibility back then, but only as a possibility that needed to be investigated.  

 

Maybe Fauci has his hands in this.  Maybe the virus is engineered (jury still out).  But that does not make Montagnier right.  

 

Edited June 5, 2021 by BacktoCricaddict

[BacktoCricaddict]

If anyone is interested in nuance, details and uncertainty.  

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/two-possible-theories-of-the-pandemics-origins-remain-viable-the-world-needs-to-know/2021/05/17/b87f0b0e-b737-11eb-96b9-e949d5397de9_story.html

 

TWO POSSIBLE theories broadly explain the origin of the coronavirus pandemic that has killed more than 3 million people. The first is the long-observed pathway of zoonotic spillover, in which a pathogen leaps from animal to human. The second is that a laboratory in Wuhan, China, was carrying out risky experiments with bat coronaviruses and could have suffered an accident or leak. Neither theory has proof, but as 18 prominent scientists caution, “both remain viable.” The world needs to know.

 

In a letter published in the journal Science last week, the scientists insist that “greater clarity about the origins of this pandemic is necessary and feasible to achieve.” The signers included Ralph Baric of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, who is an expert on coronaviruses and pioneered techniques for manipulating them that were eventually used by the Wuhan Institute of Virology. The letter was organized by David Relman of Stanford University and Jesse Bloom of the University of Washington and endorsed by Rep. Anna Eshoo (D-Calif.), who chairs the House Energy and Commerce health subcommittee. The letter notes the lopsided deficiencies in an earlier World Health Organization-China investigation, and calls for a “proper investigation” that would be “transparent, objective, data-driven, inclusive of broad expertise, subject to independent oversight, and responsibly managed to minimize the impact of conflicts of interest.”

 

It is not too late. Surely, more research could fruitfully probe zoonotic spillover. Already, more than 80,000 wildlife, livestock and poultry samples were collected from 31 areas in China, and none tested positive for the virus before or after the outbreak.

 

The laboratory leak theory also deserves more careful scrutiny. This is not to stigmatize Asians or to bash China, nor to embrace the Trump administration’s use of the laboratory leak theory to divert attention from its failures. The reason to investigate is the persistence of unanswered questions about research being carried out at the Wuhan institute under Shi Zhengli to modify viral genomes to give them new properties, such as the ability to infect a new host species or transmit from one host to another more easily. The research involved testing novel chimeric viruses with different spike proteins, like that on the pandemic coronavirus strain, using “humanized” mice, with cells modified to resemble human respiratory cells.

 

Did some byproduct of the research leak, or did workers become inadvertently infected? Was the research carried out in less protected BSL-2 laboratories instead of the more secure BSL-4? Did Dr. Shi successfully manipulate a virus in the lab to add genetic features boosting affinity for human cells, as science journalist Nicholas Wade has suggested in the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists? These and other questions have been met with stout denials and roadblocks from China. In response to the Science letter, which called for opening records of research labs, Dr. Shi said, “It’s definitely not acceptable,” and, “Who can provide an evidence that does not exist?”

That brings us no closer to identifying the pandemic’s origins. If the laboratory leak theory is wrong, China could easily clarify the situation by being more open and transparent. Instead, it acts as if there is something to hide.

[BacktoCricaddict]

A thread from Feb 2021.  @Mariyam's reply was epic!

 

 

Edited June 5, 2021 by BacktoCricaddict

[ravishingravi]

18 minutes ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

 

 

 

Problem is Montagnier has jumped off the deep end over the years with some pretty kooky, evidence-free claims and ruined his own credibility:

 

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/330/6012/1732.summary

 

https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2011/01/10/has_luc_montagnier_lost_it

 

So, like for the millionth time (and that too just on ICF; I do this same stuff in other places too):  The evidence in Feb 2020 was scant.  Anyone who claimed it so confidently then was not to be believed.  Even I had mentioned lab leak as a possibility back then, but only as a possibility that needed to be investigated.  

 

Maybe Fauci has his hands in this.  Maybe the virus is engineered (jury still out).  But that does not make Montagnier right.  

 

I completely hear you. But we are talking about experts here. And experts can make bad judgements. Or let’s say they can make judgements which can look bad in hindsight. For me, the issue is not his judgement in isolation. But the fact that Fauci’s association with lab has come up and the manner in which it came up, it is definitely hard to give a clean chit. 
 

Question of credibility is highly dubious and let’s just say no one is covered in glory here. I mean lancet gave a clean chit without disclosing conflict of interest of the author. So, I will be skeptical. 

 

For me this whole episode reminds of this concept I read years back in college. 
 

 

[BacktoCricaddict]

15 minutes ago, ravishingravi said:

Question of credibility is highly dubious

True.  Some lose credibility because of they crave power (Fauci?), others lose it because they are entrenched in evidence-free beliefs (Montagnier).  

 

BTW, I am not sure which particular interaction of Fauci with WIV you are questioning.  I have explained how the whole Drascak (sp?) $600,000 could have been taken out of context.  In my world, this would be the Occam's razor:

 

 

Regardless, unless there can be an absolute guarantee that GOF research will be done with the highest regard to safety, I would move to ban it.