Fans need to understand England approach will not work for Indian team.

[New guy]

10 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

 

 

 

thats how a champion side like Aus played in 200s pre t20

 

 

 

Even the 2003 WC final they pwned us by batting aggressively and taking the momentum away right at the start. Very similarly to our 2017 champions trophy defeat. 

[CodeOfWisden]

13 hours ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

Kohli is the best T20 batsman in the world? Hello! 2017 was 4 years ago.

 

In recent times, he has been content with 35-40 ball 50s derailing the team totally and in the Dhoniesque way of taking the games deep. (remaining not out to boost his average). Most of his high scoring  knocks in last two years have had minimal impact on the team's successes. We have been largely saved because Pandya, Pant, Jadeja on various occasions have stepped up at critical junctures.

 

Kohli is at best an accumulator now (like Dhoni of post 2013-14). Unless he gives up his captaincy, he isn't going to be the freak LOI batsman he was earlier.

Yup, this isn't 2017, both Kohli and Sharma play too slow according to the standards these days. Also Sharma is probably the most overrated t20 batsman ever. 

 

We need only one of Kohli or Sharma, and considering the fact that Kohli turns it on in t20 world cups I"ll take him. 

[Straight Drive]

Firstly, I do think that there is nothing wrong in following a template and startegy which the successful team like England plays with in recent years. However, like the OP said, the team combo is a very valid point. Perhaps the Ranji State team selectors are not doing justice by selecting equally capable or better bowlers who can bat better the ones we have. Maybe better bowlers who can bat as well are being dropped or not picked due to lack of dedication and biased work by selectors. I just don't beleive a vast country like ours do not have equally capable or better bowler who can scire few runs. I am more inclined to believe they are lost somewhere during the selection process at lower levels or in under age squad selections.

[Lord]

how many times have we or even team like England needed 9,10,11

 

its just a mental barrier to play safe as you dont have good tail

[G_B_]

22 hours ago, maniac said:

Watching 8-9 batsmen of England C and their technique and batting ability, England can afford to go boom boom till 4-5. Obviously 8-9 won’t bail you out every time.

 

Now watching Indias 7-11 no way we can afford to take high risks at the start. May be 1 or 2 players that’s about it. Different teams have different combos and skills and strategies to suit their strength.

 

Its really amazing that our fans don’t get this.

 

our bowlers Siraj,Bumrah,Shami,Chahal,Kuldeep, Saini etc etc no one can hold the bat and they might get a couple of slogs away once in a while or block for a few overs that doesn’t make them reliable at all.

 

Our strategy works for us and has been for a while. Don’t fix something that isn’t broken and as DK would say, stop staring at the neighbors wife.

 

Fully agree.

 

We have 4 number 11 players.

 

It was seen in the recent test vs nz as well

 

 

 

 

[Straight Drive]

1 hour ago, Lord said:

how many times have we or even team like England needed 9,10,11

 

its just a mental barrier to play safe as you dont have good tail

Mental barrier comes by learning. Sharma and Dhawan and Kohli have played long enough with these bunch of bowlers at domestic and international level to understand the last 4 or 5 players cannot even be depended to score 20 runs.

 

Our 9,10,11 are not required that often because Rohit Sharma when set scores big and has so many hundreds,Dhawan when set goes on to play long enough,Kohli when set plays lot of overs. 

 

So was the case when Sachin, Sehwag , Yuvi, Raina and Dhoni were set. 

 

But now that the benchmark of scores has been raised to 300 to 330 odd those runs from bowlers do matter. No wonder the batting contribution of tail is getting exposed now more than ever before due to par contribution of runs from tail across some teams 

 

 

Edited July 11, 2021 by Straight Drive

[Ankit_sharma03]

1 hour ago, Lord said:

how many times have we or even team like England needed 9,10,11

 

its just a mental barrier to play safe as you dont have good tail

yes, its just a mental barrier or an excuse they keep telling themselves. They bat the same way in t20 , its just 20 over do they fearing getting bundled out in that to.

Kohli n Rohit bat same way in IPL, both have this set template where they ll go bonkers in end but times have changed if u want bigger total u just cant target last 10 overs.

1-10 over are field restriction

10-40 only 4 fielder outside 

 

These overs have full scope to be target instead we target last 10 when its 5 fielders. England is basically going crazy in 1st 40 overs which they were accused of playing pro 40 earlier , yes that where their depth helps but we dont have to copy them entirely. Lay ur game for 50 over not 40 but doesnt mean even last 10

[Lord]

4 minutes ago, Straight Drive said:

Mental barrier comes by learning. Sharma and Dhawan and Kohli have played long enough with these bunch of bowlers at domestic and international level to understand the last 4 or 5 players cannot even be depended to score 20 runs.

 

Our 9,10,11 are not required that often because Rohit Sharma when set scores big and has so many hundreds,Dhawan when set goes on to play long enough,Kohli when set plays lot of overs. 

 

So was the case when Sachin, Sehwag , Yuvi, Raina and Dhoni were set. 

 

But now that the benchmark of scores has been raised to 300 to 330 odd those runs from bowlers do matter. Sadly many end blaming those who are scoring 60+ and even 70+ percent of runs in some ODI innigs.

 

 

 

how many times do 9.10,11 bat for England?and for how many overs?

 

last 4-5? Are you including Jadeja,Bhuvi,Thakur as well in not able to score 20?

 

Sehwag and even Sachin often used to go for it right from start.The current bunch plays safe

 

The extra 30 runs have to come from top 7 only by playing at a higher SR. Big score at low SR on patta wont win many games.On lively pitches the same top order cant even consolidate as we saw in WC 19 Semi

[Straight Drive]

4 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

how many times do 9.10,11 bat for England?and for how many overs?

 

last 4-5? Are you including Jadeja,Bhuvi,Thakur as well in not able to score 20?

 

Sehwag and even Sachin often used to go for it right from start.The current bunch plays safe

 

The extra 30 runs have to come from top 7 only by playing at a higher SR. Big score at low SR on patta wont win many games.On lively pitches the same top order cant even consolidate as we saw in WC 19 Semi

Some of the questions you are asked may requires some stats pulling, which I would not be able to do. However, I can certainly say, without looking at stats that our current ODI tail cannot bat. Thakur can bat but he plays very rarely in 11, so I am not counting him here.

 

I would post a counter question. Do you think  Sharma, Dhawan or Kohli do jot have the ability to slash the bat as wild and as flashily as England players do. They certainly can imo. In fact it is easy to bat like a hack. And they certtainly do while scroing 4 's and 6's of those expansive drives away from the body. I would go ahead and say that Rohit ,Dhawan and Kohli can also flash the bat like Afridi did or Russell dies. However, they do not and there must be some reasoning behind it. Surely they do not want Team India to lose. Something must be stopping them to slash the bat as hard and fast like Afridi or Russell and to me tat something is not having confidence in how many the lower order batsmen can contribute,not about how much they themselves can. 

[Lord]

21 minutes ago, Straight Drive said:

Some of the questions you are asked may requires some stats pulling, which I would not be able to do. However, I can certainly say, without looking at stats that our current ODI tail cannot bat. Thakur can bat but he plays very rarely in 11, so I am not counting him here.

 

I would post a counter question. Do you think  Sharma, Dhawan or Kohli do jot have the ability to slash the bat as wild and as flashily as England players do. They certainly can imo. In fact it is easy to bat like a hack. And they certtainly do while scroing 4 's and 6's of those expansive drives away from the body. I would go ahead and say that Rohit ,Dhawan and Kohli can also flash the bat like Afridi did or Russell dies. However, they do not and there must be some reasoning behind it. Surely they do not want Team India to lose. Something must be stopping them to slash the bat as hard and fast like Afridi or Russell and to me tat something is not having confidence in how many the lower order batsmen can contribute,not about how much they themselves can. 

 

If Thakur doesnt play Saini does and hes okay too.We can even use guys Rahul Chahar /Ashwin over Chahal to upgrade batting without much loss in batting form.The bigger point is they are not required much,even for England who uses different approach

 

Dhawan,Sharma,Kohli do have the ability but dont use it to full extent. They are using an outdated approach.Our 4-7 have been scoring as much at better SR in recent times.

 

With our current approach,we reach 330 on our best days. However England by thier approach reaches there by 45 overs and even in case of mini collapse are able to score 330.Thats what happened in our WC game v them where they reached 330 despite wickets in middle overs. We werent able to chase it despite Rohit ton.

 

If you think all team strategies and approaches are correct because they know better than I have nothing to say

 

 

 

[R!TTER]

34 minutes ago, Straight Drive said:

Do you think  Sharma, Dhawan or Kohli do jot have the ability to slash the bat as wild and as flashily as England players do.

They play safe, stat padding, that's it. No other explanation will suffice, people say SRT failed in that unwinnable 2003 final FFS do you remember the start vs Pak same WC? He went for the pull & got out, had he not even tried to do that he may well have ended up with a hundred & India would still have lost, without his early demolition of Shoaib we'd never have won that game - which btw is the only total that has been achieved by the chasing team in all Ind vs Pak games in WC 

[Sandeep99]

Why the F can't we understand the approach that won us 3 world cups? STRONG MIDDLE ORDER and a slew of batsmen who can bowl! What's the point in playing 5 specialist bowlers in odis when all of them are going to get spanked anyway? I'd rather play the likes of Sundar, Thakur, Pandya, Sky over collar chewer, mental midget kuli, Bhuvi, Shami. Just play a couple of specialist bowlers and that's enough. 

[Lord]

1 minute ago, Sandeep99 said:

Why the F can't we understand the approach that won us 3 world cups? STRONG MIDDLE ORDER and a slew of batsmen who can bowl! What's the point in playing 5 specialist bowlers in odis when all of them are going to get spanked anyway? I'd rather play the likes of Sundar, Thakur, Pandya, Sky over collar chewer, mental midget kuli, Bhuvi, Shami. Just play a couple of specialist bowlers and that's enough. 

 

yes 7-11 of  Jadeja,Sundar,Bhuvi/Thakur,Bumrah and one more pacer is enough.We wont lose too much bowling quality but will bat better

[Sandeep99]

11 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

yes 7-11 of  Jadeja,Sundar,Bhuvi/Thakur,Bumrah and one more pacer is enough.We wont lose too much bowling quality but will bat better

The likes of Pandya, Sky can share the bowling workload.. Many bowling options and deep batting.. Top order will not have any more 'fans' make excuses and threads for their outdated and stale approach 

[Lord]

5 minutes ago, Sandeep99 said:

The likes of Pandya, Sky can share the bowling workload.. Many bowling options and deep batting.. Top order will not have any more 'fans' make excuses and threads for their outdated and stale approach 

 

not sure of SKY's bowling but Pandya bowling is required.We need atleast 6 bowling options

[Sandeep99]

One thing the management can do is ask these useless tailenders to develop their batting instead of spending time at the gym. Dont the likes of Bumrah and chahal feel ashamed when they watch the likes of shefali Verma and mandhana score runs? 

[Ankit_sharma03]

8 minutes ago, Sandeep99 said:

The likes of Pandya, Sky can share the bowling workload.. Many bowling options and deep batting.. Top order will not have any more 'fans' make excuses and threads for their outdated and stale approach 

SKy has chucking issues

[Sandeep99]

2 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

not sure of SKY's bowling but Pandya bowling is required.We need atleast 6 bowling options

Sky's  good enough to slip in 3-4 overs in odis and 1-2 overs in t20s

[Lord]

5 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

SKy has chucking issues

 

I think he switched to medium pace after that

[maniac]

@Straight Drive bhai has put forward some very valid points