Rahul Dravid rues Hardik Pandya and Ravindra Jadeja absence from ODI side

[sandeep]

Just now, Vijy said:

I guess it depends on what one refers to as fitness. although a lot of fast bowlers have had back injuries, it isn't all of them. and it is precisely the fact that he took up bowling rather late, which is concerning for his long-term future as an all-rounder because this is something he's had to acquire and learn rather late. he may need to decide whether he becomes a batter who bowls on occasion to maximize his career and his talent.

 

To be honest, he's always going to want to bowl, because a pace bowling allrounder is a rarity in cricket anyway, and a goddam absolute magical unicorn in Indian cricket.  Does he still have an international career if he stops bowling? Maybe.  But if he can bowl 2-3 overs in T20s, and 5+ overs in ODIs, that's still pretty handy.  

 

 

[Vijy]

5 minutes ago, sandeep said:

 

Can some stat hound post Pandya's ODI average and SR, and compare with other #6 batsmen?  

@sandeep Since HP's debut, here are the records of batters who have batted at No. 6. HP has an excellent avg + SR combo: 38.5 at 111 SR

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?batting_positionmax1=6;batting_positionmin1=6;batting_positionval1=batting_position;class=2;filter=advanced;orderby=runs;spanmin1=14+oct+2016;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

The only better ones are Buttler with 44 avg and 111 SR and Jadhav with 48 avg and 107 SR. Jadhav was damn underrated in the first half of his career. Miller also very good with 41 avg and 98 SR

Edited January 26, 2022 by Vijy

[Pollack]

Pandya's unique selling point was he was a true allrounder potential. There are many who are just pretentious. If he is not able to bowl due to fitness then he is going to find it difficult in future. Not so much at present since we also desperately need lower order hitter and he fits perfectly. 

[sandeep]

8 minutes ago, Vijy said:

@sandeep Since HP's debut, here are the records of batters who have batted at No. 6. HP has an excellent avg + SR combo: 38.5 at 111 SR

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?batting_positionmax1=6;batting_positionmin1=6;batting_positionval1=batting_position;class=2;filter=advanced;orderby=runs;spanmin1=14+oct+2016;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

The only better ones are Buttler with 44 avg and 111 SR and Jadhav with 48 avg and 107 SR. Jadhav was damn underrated in the first half of his career. Miller also very good with 41 avg and 98 SR

 

 

Buttler is a freak, so lets put him aside.  But in Pandya, India has an ODI batsman who has a better Strike rate than Glen Maxwell, Marcus Stoinis, Ben Stokes, Kieron Pollard, Jimmy Neesham, and either better or comparable averages? 

 

And we are sitting here claiming that the only way he gets 'considered' for India selection if his bowling fitness is 110%?

 

This is what I was pointing out - what ignorant bias looks like.  

[Vijy]

Just now, Pollack said:

Pandya's unique selling point was he was a true allrounder potential. There are many who are just pretentious. If he is not able to bowl due to fitness then he is going to find it difficult in future. Not so much at present since we also desperately need lower order hitter and he fits perfectly. 

his record at 6 is fantastic. however, even if he can't bowl 8-9 overs like before, I do hope he can become 6th bowler and bowl 3-4 overs. if necessary, he should go the klusener route - zulu went from being genuinely sharp pacer to medium pace bowler who used cutters and changes in pace (was still quite effective in ODIs after this change). I'm not saying that Pandu needs to trundle, but he should keep his long-term future in mind when deciding what he wants to become

[sandeep]

2 minutes ago, Pollack said:

Not so much at present since we also desperately need lower order hitter and he fits perfectly. 

 

Its one thing to want him to be an answer to India's quest for that elusive allrounder.

 

its another to underrate and underestimate his batting ability and record.  

 

Indian team made a calculated decision to let Dhoni prolong his career into the 2019 WC, and batted Pandya lower down the order than he should, because he was the guy they trusted to provide the big hits without 'getting his eye in'.  In spite of that, his ODI record is absolute top shelf. 

 

I wanted Dhoni out, and Pandya batting at #5 from 2018 onwards, to evaluate whether he had it in him to be a a guy who can average 40+ without losing too much of his SR.  So far it hasn't worked out that way.  I still think that's the optimal use of Pandya the batsman, assuming form etc.  

 

 

[Vijy]

Just now, sandeep said:

 

Its one thing to want him to be an answer to India's quest for that elusive allrounder.

 

its another to underrate and underestimate his batting ability and record.  

 

Indian team made a calculated decision to let Dhoni prolong his career into the 2019 WC, and batted Pandya lower down the order than he should, because he was the guy they trusted to provide the big hits without 'getting his eye in'.  In spite of that, his ODI record is absolute top shelf. 

 

I wanted Dhoni out, and Pandya batting at #5 from 2018 onwards, to evaluate whether he had it in him to be a a guy who can average 40+ without losing too much of his SR.  So far it hasn't worked out that way.  I still think that's the optimal use of Pandya the batsman, assuming form etc.  

 

 

he is pretty good at no. 5 although the sample size is low. avg on the slightly lower side, but SR is outstanding.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Vijy

[sandeep]

14 minutes ago, Vijy said:

Jadhav was damn underrated in the first half of his career.

Jadhav was shafted because of greybeard getting to "enjoy himself" at #5 and extend his career till 2019 wc.  He was a very effective white ball 'gap' hitter, and should have had more chances to bat in the 30 to 40 over timeperiod for India, with 4 outfielders. But instead, due to not being "senior" enough, he was shunted down the order and asked to do the donkey work of trying to "accelerate the team score in death overs".  And still his  numbers are good.  

 

Jadhav was dealt an unfair hand.  And to be honest, he made the national team probably a year or 2 late from his age perspective.  That's why he started pulling hammies repeatedly.  His List A numbers were spectacular for a prolonged period ahead of his debut - I don't remember which specific poster, but there was a guy on ICF who was screaming for his debut years before he finally got a shot...

[Vijy]

Just now, sandeep said:

Jadhav was shafted because of greybeard getting to "enjoy himself" at #5 and extend his career till 2019 wc.  He was a very effective white ball 'gap' hitter, and should have had more chances to bat in the 30 to 40 over timeperiod for India, with 4 outfielders. But instead, due to not being "senior" enough, he was shunted down the order and asked to do the donkey work of trying to "accelerate the team score in death overs".  And still his  numbers are good.  

 

Jadhav was dealt an unfair hand.  And to be honest, he made the national team probably a year or 2 late from his age perspective.  That's why he started pulling hammies repeatedly.  His List A numbers were spectacular for a prolonged period ahead of his debut - I don't remember which specific poster, but there was a guy on ICF who was screaming for his debut years before he finally got a shot...

yes, he had a unique combo of 100+ SR and 50+ avg in List A, which is super rare... I certainly remember there were a few posters who advocated for his selection for several years before selection. Even nowadays, only Shaw and Gaekwad have that combo of 100+ SR/50+ avg, and they are both openers.

[Pollack]

2 minutes ago, Vijy said:

yes, he had a unique combo of 100+ SR and 50+ avg in List A, which is super rare... I certainly remember there were a few posters who advocated for his selection for several years before selection. Even nowadays, only Shaw and Gaekwad have that combo of 100+ SR/50+ avg, and they are both openers.

Shaw is not handled well ATM. He needs to be in scheme of things which he is not for lame excuses like fitness. He can only get motivation to get fitter if he plays at the highest level and finds it difficult to cope up with fitness standards required at that level. In domestics, he is super star and his fitness made zero difference so why would he make efforts? He can get away with it.

[sandeep]

5 minutes ago, Vijy said:

yes, he had a unique combo of 100+ SR and 50+ avg in List A, which is super rare... I certainly remember there were a few posters who advocated for his selection for several years before selection. Even nowadays, only Shaw and Gaekwad have that combo of 100+ SR/50+ avg, and they are both openers.

 

Shaw deserves a proper white ball run - and by proper I mean 10+ back to back games.  Its criminal that we have a known issue with lack of momentum in the top order, a prospect of his quality just sitting out there.  Banjo, mafia has made top order India batting slots into their personal jaagirs.

[Vijy]

Just now, sandeep said:

 

Shaw deserves a proper white ball run - and by proper I mean 10+ back to back games.  Its criminal that we have a known issue with lack of momentum in the top order, a prospect of his quality just sitting out there.  Banjo, mafia has made top order India batting slots into their personal jaagirs.

so true. I believe that gaekwad also deserves a run. although an opener, he is pretty good against spin, does seem capable of strike rotation, etc. would like to see him get games at 3 or 4 if not opening (where it's too crowded).

[sandeep]

1 minute ago, Vijy said:

so true. I believe that gaekwad also deserves a run. although an opener, he is pretty good against spin, does seem capable of strike rotation, etc. would like to see him get games at 3 or 4 if not opening (where it's too crowded).

I haven't seen enough of Gaekwad and frankly not sold on him yet.  I liked what I saw of Paddikal, but both of these guys I feel, are not at Shaw's level.  The body of work is not as deep, Shaw has dominated FC and put up IPL performances for multiple years.  I liked what I saw of Venky Iyer too, but was disappointed with his SA failures.  Don't want to read too much into a couple of games in 'different' conditions'.  Let's see what happens with Iyer if he gets a few more opportunities...

[ShoonyaSifar]

Looks like both Pandya and Jadeja are still not fit and will not be available for the WI series. Ashwin is doubtful as well.

 

Coach Dravid, who clearly detests youngsters and doesn't consider them to be good enough, should recall Stuart Binny, Sunil Joshi and Nikhil Chopra for their wealth of experience. They are playing for India Legends and are not completely out of touch.

[Vijy]

6 minutes ago, sandeep said:

I haven't seen enough of Gaekwad and frankly not sold on him yet.  I liked what I saw of Paddikal, but both of these guys I feel, are not at Shaw's level.  The body of work is not as deep, Shaw has dominated FC and put up IPL performances for multiple years.  I liked what I saw of Venky Iyer too, but was disappointed with his SA failures.  Don't want to read too much into a couple of games in 'different' conditions'.  Let's see what happens with Iyer if he gets a few more opportunities...

I saw some of his (gaekwad) games in VHT, which I'm going by (as much as - or more than - the IPL games). not the best "sample" and I agree that his body of work is not as dominating as shaw, who was successful at virtually all levels he played - FC, Ind A, U19, and Test debut. quite shabbily treated on the whole. played 2 tests in NZ in green mambas, did fairly well. did very poorly in Aus test, but anyone can have 1 bad test... and he was discarded thereafter.

 

Even in ODIs, his batting avg isn't great (31.5) but it is not bad; moreover, that SR of nearly 114 is gold.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Vijy

[Vijy]

Just now, ShoonyaSifar said:

Looks like both Pandya and Jadeja are still not fit and will not be available for the WI series. Ashwin is doubtful as well.

 

Coach Dravid, who clearly detests youngsters and doesn't consider them to be good enough, should recall Stuart Binny, Sunil Joshi and Nikhil Chopra for their wealth of experience. They are playing for India Legends and are not completely out of touch.

Nikhil Chopra was quite good back then in my opinion. obviously no world beater, but I regarded him as a pretty canny ODI bowler. could also bat a bit.

 

continued absence of pandya is sad; as for jadeja, we should play axar as much as possible to see how he can do.

[Frustrated]

If Dravid thinks these two players are true match winners, he should also explain why India keeps losing ICC tournaments despite the presence of these two in all those tournaments.

 

1) WT20 2016 -  Both played 

2) CT2017 - Both played 

3) WC2019- Both played

4) WT20 2021- Both played (Most Humiliating exit in group stage)

[vayuu1]

10 minutes ago, Frustrated said:

If Dravid thinks these two players are true match winners, he should also explain why India keeps losing ICC tournaments despite the presence of these two in all those tournaments.

 

1) WT20 2016 -  Both played (rahane)

2) CT2017 - Both played (brain fade from kohli plus top order failure)

3) WC2019- Both played(top order failure)

4) WT20 2021- Both played (Most Humiliating exit in group stage)(again toss and top.order failure)

Fixed.

Edited January 26, 2022 by vayuu1

[Jay]

31 minutes ago, Vijy said:

Nikhil Chopra was quite good back then in my opinion. obviously no world beater, but I regarded him as a pretty canny ODI bowler. could also bat a bit.

 

continued absence of pandya is sad; as for jadeja, we should play axar as much as possible to see how he can do.

Axar with his height and being a leftie can be brutal in India. 

 

I want 2 major changes though. 

Our batsmen need to practice bowling too. If someone has a knack for wickets despite being a proper batsman then I expect our management to encourage that individual to be a batting all rounder. 

Vice versa for bowlers. 

Being a striker bowler is fine. Bottom 2 I can sort of excuse. We can only have one number 11 max. 

I expect all our bowlers to learn the art of power hitting. Just improve bat speed and swing. Also work on bouncers in particular. Always work on bouncers as a priority. Ofcourse yorkers is equally important. Don't worry about swing for tail enders. 

[Frustrated]

26 minutes ago, vayuu1 said:

Fixed.

 

That is half truth.   Here is the complete picture, adding on to your points. 

 

1) WT20 2016 -  Both played (rahane)  ...  Both jaddu and pandu, the so called match winning all rounders (as per dravid) sucked with the ball while defending 192, which was a par score, if not a match winning one. They could not give us any breakthrough at all.

 

2) CT2017 - Both played (brain fade from kohli plus top order failure.)...  Both jaddu and pandu sucked with the ball. Hardly any wickets between them. Allowed Poyz to score 335.

 

3) WC2019- Both played(top order failure)..    Both jaddu and pandu yet again no made impact with the ball.  Pandu sucked in batting as well, though he had lot of time to build his inning. All he needed was to stay at the crease little longer.

 

4) WT20 2021- Both played (Most Humiliating exit in group stage)(again toss and top.order failure)..   Not much to add here as I agree it was primarily **** batting of our top order, 

Edited January 26, 2022 by Frustrated