The Trundler love of the New team management

[vvvslaxman]

On 2/16/2022 at 2:27 PM, express bowling said:

 

Even in T20s,  3 bowlers must be chosen based on bowling ability. Taking wickets is the only true way to stop explosive batsmen on flat decks.

 

Batting till 8 is enough.

 

3 specialist bowlers + 1 bowling allrounder at 8 + 1 allrounder at 7 ... is the way to go.

 

 

 

India has one of the better overall ER in T20 in the last 3 years. India is no.2 ranked side. India has a team that needs to have a perfect game in almost every match.  Margin of error for team like India is extremely low  when you have multiple players don't do their job in their main department. If 5 players don't do their job that means we are playing only 6 players. Rest have to compensate for the failure of them. If top 3 fail.  No.4,5,6 must compensate for top 3. If two bowlers go off the boil others cannot cover as they can only bowl 12 overs. No part time bowler to cover for them. Same way no all rounder to cover for the top order if they fail. This is why you have to build an unit like the last season CSK.   KKR under Gambhir. Have all the bases covered. You just have to rotate bowlers so fast that opposition won't be able to settle down. If you have exactly 5 bowlers, it is not that hard for an opposition to set themselves up against atleast 2 bowlers.

 

Edited February 17, 2022 by vvvslaxman

[AKane]

Nothing creates pressure like wickets.

 

Even the first world cup we won in 1983 - all the matches we won, we bowled out the opposition. The two matches we lost - 1 against Aus and 1 against WI in group play, we did not bowl out the opposition. We all remember the final but even in the semi-final England were cruising at 60 odd without loss and Roger Binny gets both openers, Gower fails for once and Lamb is run out and that was the game from that point on. Have to put the opposition under pressure.

 

The best way to create pressure is wicket taking bowlers - allrounders and bowlers who can bat is okay but if they cannot take wickets it will be for naught and you will lose matches at critical points. The opposition is also trying to win and they are professionals too.

 

A little like scoring goals in soccer - you can have great passing and dribbling but if you cannot put the ball in the back of the net, eventually it will catch up especially in tournament play like the WC.

[vvvslaxman]

34 minutes ago, AKane said:

Nothing creates pressure like wickets.

 

Even the first world cup we won in 1983 - all the matches we won, we bowled out the opposition. The two matches we lost - 1 against Aus and 1 against WI in group play, we did not bowl out the opposition. We all remember the final but even in the semi-final England were cruising at 60 odd without loss and Roger Binny gets both openers, Gower fails for once and Lamb is run out and that was the game from that point on. Have to put the opposition under pressure.

 

The best way to create pressure is wicket taking bowlers - allrounders and bowlers who can bat is okay but if they cannot take wickets it will be for naught and you will lose matches at critical points. The opposition is also trying to win and they are professionals too.

 

A little like scoring goals in soccer - you can have great passing and dribbling but if you cannot put the ball in the back of the net, eventually it will catch up especially in tournament play like the WC.

 

You are using a bad example lol Those matches were won with bit part bowler like Mohinder Amarnath. Not genuine wicket taking bowler. India had so many bowling option and also batting option. Balwinder sandhu and Kirmani added 22 runs for the last wicket. They just exploited the swing on offer in some mathces. Otherwise they were all average bowlers barring Kapil dev. But Amarnath the part timer spell and for last wicket partnership India would have lost the final. 

[vvvslaxman]

At this point i don't trust any of the Indian bowlers until i see them long enough. They start well with a couple of decent matches. Then they deteriorate. Even Bumrah has deteriorated as people know what to expect from him.  Same Siraj couple of seasons back in the IPL  earned the ignominy of giving 7 runs in one ball in the same innings twice. Two waist high full tosses both travelled.  Prasidh consistently maintained a 9 plus ER in all 4 seasons he participated. Siraj has had only good IPL season which was last year. 

 

Deepak chahar achieved more than these guys  Bowls 80% of his overs in power play

 

https://www.cricxtasy.com/deepak-chahar-powerplay-dhoni-csk-ipl-2020/

 

[AKane]

41 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

You are using a bad example lol Those matches were won with bit part bowler like Mohinder Amarnath. Not genuine wicket taking bowler. India had so many bowling option and also batting option. Balwinder sandhu and Kirmani added 22 runs for the last wicket. They just exploited the swing on offer in some mathces. Otherwise they were all average bowlers barring Kapil dev. But Amarnath the part timer spell and for last wicket partnership India would have lost the final. 

 

No I am not - yes it was a different time with different bats but no one had played with so many bowlers/allrounders until then. It was a unique idea that worked. 

 

But now that idea is old and will not work. Those same/similar bowlers will get slaughtered. For example spin trio worked in 1971 England and got hammered in 1974 - Wadekar had to quit captaincy! People catch on.

 

However what they did - focus on getting wickets needs to be highlighted. When we score 155 and then "the" Bhuvaneshwar starts with that over and we let them win with 10 wickets.... we are doing something wrong. Yes bowling second was a handicap but lose like Pak lost to Aus with the 3 Wade 6s not by failing to take one damn wicket.  And this idea because the WC is in India ..... we will win with Chahal and co... No it is not going to happen.

[AKane]

4 hours ago, SRT100 said:

Similarly the opposite happens as well, we dont set targets above par and we dont have the bowlers to defend. Yet.

 

If we don't select bowlers who can take wickets - we will never defend a target.

 

The game has not changed in one respect - if a team has batters on hand, they will chase down a target. Need to take wickets. That was true in 1983 and it is true today.

[vvvslaxman]

16 minutes ago, AKane said:

 

No I am not - yes it was a different time with different bats but no one had played with so many bowlers/allrounders until then. It was a unique idea that worked. 

 

But now that idea is old and will not work. Those same/similar bowlers will get slaughtered. For example spin trio worked in 1971 England and got hammered in 1974 - Wadekar had to quit captaincy! People catch on.

 

However what they did - focus on getting wickets needs to be highlighted. When we score 155 and then "the" Bhuvaneshwar starts with that over and we let them win with 10 wickets.... we are doing something wrong. Yes bowling second was a handicap but lose like Pak lost to Aus with the 3 Wade 6s not by failing to take one damn wicket.  And this idea because the WC is in India ..... we will win with Chahal and co... No it is not going to happen.

 

I don't think we have an unrdoppable LOI bowler with no batting/fielding skill. Even Bumrah is not undroppable. He hardly takes wicket with new ball. Even in death overs he is unreliable. Except Peak Shami. In T20s we have had bad experience with Siraj before. He is yet to have a decent T20 match. All 4 matches he was expensive. If anything Chahar has done exceptionally well in the IPL given that he bowls the highest percentage of overs inside power play. 80% better than all these guys. 

Edited February 18, 2022 by vvvslaxman

[vvvslaxman]

8 minutes ago, AKane said:

 

If we don't select bowlers who can take wickets - we will never defend a target.

 

The game has not changed in one respect - if a team has batters on hand, they will chase down a target. Need to take wickets. That was true in 1983 and it is true today.

 

It is rare you bowl a side out. I remember a match where Australia needed 14 runs  with 2 tailenders (Cummins & Jhye Richardson) both new to the crease facing 0 ball. They won the match tonking Umesh in 20th over. He was a specialist bowler.   You have to outbat the opposition.  Look what happened in World T20. Under lights we got our ass kicked by NZ and Pakistan.  There will be scenarios where all bowlers will be ineffective under lights.  You need the batting power to outbat them. Restricting opposition to 140 is a pipe dream. Even one freak innings is enough.

[ShoonyaSifar]

12 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

I don't think we have an unrdoppable LOI bowler with no batting/fielding skill. Even Bumrah is not undroppable. He hardly takes wicket with new ball. Even in death overs he is unreliable. Except Peak Shami. In T20s we have had bad experience with Siraj before. He is yet to have a decent T20 match. All 4 matches he was expensive. If anything Chahar has done exceptionally well in the IPL given that he bowls the highest percentage of overs inside power play. 80% better than all these guys. 

Last two IPL  seasons

Chahar: 29 matches, 26 wickets@33, ER of 8.1

Siraj: 24 matches, 22 wickets@27, ER of 7.3

 

If Siraj's sample of 4 T20Is (spread over 4 years) is an issue, then so are Chahar's last 4 T20Is where he has 4 wickets@47, ER of 10.4, similar numbers to Siraj's T20I record in 4 T20Is.

 

I have nothing against Chahar but please do not throw some random **** like "being 80% better than these guys"

 

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

Last two IPL  seasons

Chahar: 29 matches, 26 wickets@33, ER of 8.1

Siraj: 24 matches, 22 wickets@27, ER of 7.3

 

If Siraj's sample of 4 T20Is (spread over 4 years) is an issue, then so are Chahar's last 4 T20Is where he has 4 wickets@47, ER of 10.4, similar numbers to Siraj's T20I record in 4 T20Is.

 

I have nothing against Chahar but please do not throw some random **** like "being 80% better than these guys"

 

 

He bowls 80% of his overs in power play.  Hardly any middle overs.  I have even shared the article.

 

 

https://www.cricxtasy.com/deepak-chahar-powerplay-dhoni-csk-ipl-2020/

 

 

Siraj had one good season. Consistently had poor returns for 4 or 5 seasons. Chahar had one terrible season in 2017. Other than that he has been consistent in all the seasons. Siraj was even dropped from the side since he was expensive. This was the first season he has had decent returns. We  are acting like he is far and above Chahar purely in terms of bowling forget about batting.  May be he is better than Thakur who primarily bowls safe overs.  Prasidh also needs a  run to see how good he is. His overall T20 record is not as good as his List A record.  Chahar on the other hand did well both in IPL and syed mustaq ali.  He helped his side reach the final in 2018. He was the highest wicket taker.

 

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/bowling/most_wickets_career.html?id=12193;type=tournament

 

 

[rkt.india]

1 hour ago, vvvslaxman said:

At this point i don't trust any of the Indian bowlers until i see them long enough. They start well with a couple of decent matches. Then they deteriorate. Even Bumrah has deteriorated as people know what to expect from him.  Same Siraj couple of seasons back in the IPL  earned the ignominy of giving 7 runs in one ball in the same innings twice. Two waist high full tosses both travelled.  Prasidh consistently maintained a 9 plus ER in all 4 seasons he participated. Siraj has had only good IPL season which was last year. 

 

Deepak chahar achieved more than these guys  Bowls 80% of his overs in power play

 

https://www.cricxtasy.com/deepak-chahar-powerplay-dhoni-csk-ipl-2020/

 

Chahar hardly bowls in death overs.

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, rkt.india said:

Chahar hardly bowls in death overs.

 

Death overs is not power play overs. Power play overs is first 6 overs.  I think this article referring to death overs. I am sure they did their research. Who else is there in CSK that bowls death overs. Only he is there alongwith bravo. Hazlewood is not a regular death over bowler

Edited February 18, 2022 by vvvslaxman

[rkt.india]

51 minutes ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

Last two IPL  seasons

Chahar: 29 matches, 26 wickets@33, ER of 8.1

Siraj: 24 matches, 22 wickets@27, ER of 7.3

 

If Siraj's sample of 4 T20Is (spread over 4 years) is an issue, then so are Chahar's last 4 T20Is where he has 4 wickets@47, ER of 10.4, similar numbers to Siraj's T20I record in 4 T20Is.

 

I have nothing against Chahar but please do not throw some random **** like "being 80% better than these guys"

 

And chahar hardly bowled at death. Siraj bowled both in pp and death regularly. Death overs are the biggest test of any bowler.

[rkt.india]

Just now, vvvslaxman said:

 

Death overs is not power play overs. Power play overs is first 6 overs. 

Death overs are the biggest test for fast bowlers when there is no swing, no seam, batsmen just looking to hit. Lot of times batsmen don't even go hard in pp trying to build a platform likes of Rahul, Kohli, Dhawan, Rohit opening.

[vvvslaxman]

14 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Death overs are the biggest test for fast bowlers when there is no swing, no seam, batsmen just looking to hit. Lot of times batsmen don't even go hard in pp trying to build a platform likes of Rahul, Kohli, Dhawan, Rohit opening.

 

Didn't Chahar take a hatrick bowling 18th and 20th over against Bangladesh. Even Pandya has taken 3 freebie wickets in 20th over with 3 brainless hoicks. In death overs you get a lot of freebie wickets. Natrajan just had to maintain a channel in Australia. He wasn't even bowling fast. Just 125 kph trundling accurate low full tosses yorkers. Bowled exceptionally well.  Only reason Chahar doesn't get to bowl often for CSK is because he is used up , when the ball is newish. He gets wickets mostly upfront. Bumrah with new ball hardly takes wickets. 

Edited February 18, 2022 by vvvslaxman

[vvvslaxman]

35 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Death overs are the biggest test for fast bowlers when there is no swing, no seam, batsmen just looking to hit. Lot of times batsmen don't even go hard in pp trying to build a platform likes of Rahul, Kohli, Dhawan, Rohit opening.

What do you cal this lol. Same match Khalee operated with new ball. He was also thrashed around by Lynn, Nitish Rana.

 

 

 

[AKane]

This current U19 team has done one thing - busted up the myth of Dravid as a super coach. Going forward it will be a good idea not to read much into the U19 coach based on team performance either ways good or bad.

 

Dravid as a coach of the senior team has been an eye opener. I must say I was enamored and looking forward to him as coach due to the propaganda about him being a super coach at U19 level. He has proven true the maxim of "Appearances can be deceptive". Totally deflated by this fellow so far.

[express bowling]

12 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

India has one of the better overall ER in T20 in the last 3 years. India is no.2 ranked side. India has a team that needs to have a perfect game in almost every match.  Margin of error for team like India is extremely low  when you have multiple players don't do their job in their main department. If 5 players don't do their job that means we are playing only 6 players. Rest have to compensate for the failure of them. If top 3 fail.  No.4,5,6 must compensate for top 3. If two bowlers go off the boil others cannot cover as they can only bowl 12 overs. No part time bowler to cover for them. Same way no all rounder to cover for the top order if they fail. This is why you have to build an unit like the last season CSK.   KKR under Gambhir. Have all the bases covered. You just have to rotate bowlers so fast that opposition won't be able to settle down. If you have exactly 5 bowlers, it is not that hard for an opposition to set themselves up against atleast 2 bowlers.

 

 

 

I am not advocating 5 bowlers only.

 

The 6th bowler will have to be big hitter batsman who can bowl somewhat.

 

In that post you quoted, I was talking about the composition of the 5 primary bowlers.

 

The composition I want for T20s ....

 

6. Batsman who can bowl

7. All-rounder

8. Bowling all-rounder

9. Specialist bowler

10. Specialist bowler

11. Specialist bowler

 

This composition gives

.... 3 strike bowlers

.... 6 bowling options

.... batting till 8

 

Takes care of all aspects 

 

But I am totally against compromising on the 3 strike bowlers. Because, ultimately, taking wickets is the key.

Edited February 18, 2022 by express bowling

[rkt.india]

5 hours ago, AKane said:

This current U19 team has done one thing - busted up the myth of Dravid as a super coach. Going forward it will be a good idea not to read much into the U19 coach based on team performance either ways good or bad.

 

Dravid as a coach of the senior team has been an eye opener. I must say I was enamored and looking forward to him as coach due to the propaganda about him being a super coach at U19 level. He has proven true the maxim of "Appearances can be deceptive". Totally deflated by this fellow so far.

Structure of u19 cricket was built by Dravid from 2015-16 onwards and they have reaped the rewards by reaching four finals in a row. 

[Chakdephatte]

1 minute ago, rkt.india said:

Structure of u19 cricket was built by Dravid from 2015-16 onwards and they have reaped the rewards by reaching four finals in a row. 

What structure? I mean was it really 'his'. What did he change in the existing system.