"Slip Of Tongue": Former Pakistan Skipper Disagrees With Rohit Sharma Terming Ravichandran Ashwin An "All-Time Great"

[vvvslaxman]

3 hours ago, Vilander said:

What better numbers provide stats

 

Shami a

verages 35.60 NZ

averages  38.83 in England

 

Ashwin

averages 33.00 in NZ

averages 28.11 in England

 

Before shaming bowling to this hapless Englsh batting line up his average in England was 47

[Majestic]

Sri Lanka are not comparable to SENA teams. The five best teams of this era are India and SENA. Sixth is Pakistan.

 

You could argue between the top 6 but main point here is that Sri Lanka and West Indies are comfortably like 7th and 8th best team. To be an ATG, you need to perform vs top teams away from home, not necessarily all teams but surely have great performances against some teams. This applies to everyone. Ashwin fails in this metric.

 

No other player in the history of the game has been called as ATG if he doesn't perform vs top teams away. Ashwin isn't even a starter for his team's test XI overseas. 

 

Not only Ashwin doesn't have any iconic spell overseas but he also averages a sorry 40 vs major cricket nations away from home. A country great no doubt but needs to deliver a couple of iconic spell overseas. 

 

Melbourne 2020 can be taken as one ( actually it is more of a second best) but what he needs is something that tops Melbourne 2020.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 13, 2022 by Majestic

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, Majestic said:

Sri Lanka are not comparable to SENA teams. The five best teams of this era are India and SENA. Sixth is Pakistan.

 

Sri Lanka and West Indies are like 7th and 8th best team. To be an ATG, you need to perform vs top teams away from home, not necessarily all teams but surely have great performances against some teams. This applies to everyone. Ashwin fails in this metric.

 

No other player in the history of the game has been called as ATG if he doesn't perform vs top teams away. Ashwin isn't even a starter for his team's test XI overseas. 

 

Not only Ashwin doesn't have any iconic spell overseas but he also averages a sorry 40 vs major cricket nations away from home. A country great no doubt but needs to deliver a couple of iconic spell overseas. 

 

Melbourne 2020 can be taken as one ( actually it is more of a second best) but what he needs is something that tops Melbourne 2020.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nobody is going to pick Ashwin in ATG XI. THat is a given. I don't think many will pick Murali over Warne either.  Same way Steve SMith is not going to feature in ATG XI as well despite incredible stats.  HE is definite an Indian ATG. As a package a certified MVP.

 

He is the fastest Indian to pick 50, 100, 150, 200, 250, 300, 350, 400 Wickets in Test cricket.
He is the fastest Bowler to pick 250, 300, 350 Wickets in Test cricket.
Most M.O.S Awards for India in Test (8).
Most Wickets in WTC (71).
Only Spinner to Win ICC Cricketer of the Year Award.
Most times Scoring Century & Picking Fifer for India in a Test match (3 times).
Most Test 100s for India at No.8 (3).
Only player to Score Century & Pick Fifer in a WTC match.
Most times dismissing Left Handed batsman In Test (211).
Only Indian bowler to Win M.O.S Award in Debut Test Series.
Most Wickets in 2010s Decade (564).
Most Test Fifers for India in a Calendar Year (8 in 2016).
Only Indian to pick 50 Test Wickets in 3 Consecutive Years (2015-2017).
Most times picking Fifer In Both Innings of a Test match for India (5 times).
Most 10 Wicket Hauls for India in a calendar year (3 times in 2016).
Highest Rating Points by Indian Bowler in Test (904).
 

[Jay]

1 hour ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Shami a

verages 35.60 NZ

averages  38.83 in England

 

Ashwin

averages 33.00 in NZ

averages 28.11 in England

 

Before shaming bowling to this hapless Englsh batting line up his average in England was 47

That's cause phattus kept dropping chances and catches. Shami is a complete bowler. Every bowler has 2 or 3 countries where they struggle.

[Majestic]

22 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

 

Nobody is going to pick Ashwin in ATG XI. THat is a given. I don't think many will pick Murali over Warne either.  Same way Steve SMith is not going to feature in ATG XI as well despite incredible stats.  HE is definite an Indian ATG. As a package a certified MVP.

 

He is the fastest Indian to pick 50, 100, 150, 200, 250, 300, 350, 400 Wickets in Test cricket.
He is the fastest Bowler to pick 250, 300, 350 Wickets in Test cricket.
Most M.O.S Awards for India in Test (8).
Most Wickets in WTC (71).
Only Spinner to Win ICC Cricketer of the Year Award.
Most times Scoring Century & Picking Fifer for India in a Test match (3 times).
Most Test 100s for India at No.8 (3).
Only player to Score Century & Pick Fifer in a WTC match.
Most times dismissing Left Handed batsman In Test (211).
Only Indian bowler to Win M.O.S Award in Debut Test Series.
Most Wickets in 2010s Decade (564).
Most Test Fifers for India in a Calendar Year (8 in 2016).
Only Indian to pick 50 Test Wickets in 3 Consecutive Years (2015-2017).
Most times picking Fifer In Both Innings of a Test match for India (5 times).
Most 10 Wicket Hauls for India in a calendar year (3 times in 2016).
Highest Rating Points by Indian Bowler in Test (904).
 

Why would Steve Smith not feature in an all time test XI? There is no relation between Ashwin and Smith whatsoever here, not sure why you are comparing.

 

Steve Smith alongwith Brian Lara and Sachin Tendulkar and Jacques Kallis are my lock-in for 3-6 in the Test XI since 70s. If we put Bradman and Sobers in it, then also Steve Smith has a claim for a spot there.

 

Ashwin has no claim whatsoever to an all time Test XI. 

 

 

[Vijy]

54 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Why would Steve Smith not feature in an all time test XI? There is no relation between Ashwin and Smith whatsoever here, not sure why you are comparing.

 

Steve Smith alongwith Brian Lara and Sachin Tendulkar and Jacques Kallis are my lock-in for 3-6 in the Test XI since 70s. If we put Bradman and Sobers in it, then also Steve Smith has a claim for a spot there.

 

Ashwin has no claim whatsoever to an all time Test XI. 

 

 

likewise, murali has a strong case to be there ahead of warne. yes, he failed in Australia but that was as much due to pitches and his limitations as it was due to being traumatized by being called for chucking, etc. Warne had a much stronger team than Murali, was not subjected to the same level of abuse, etc.

 

I'm not here to say I'd pick murali over warne or vice versa. just that both cases can be made. however, in no universe, can ashwin come even close to being in a world XI. heck, in my all-time indian XI (a thread that I started), he is not there... although it was a close miss.

[Pollack]

Ravichandran Ashwin is a good spinner. At home, he is very good spinner. But he is not a great or atg. He benefitted from favourable pitches in India and absolutely pathetic standard of batting against spin by almost all countries. The same with Jadeja. In India, you just need to be a decent spinner. Look at Axar, he just started now in International test matches and he looks no worse than Jadeja already. Like I said any decent spinner will do.

[vvvslaxman]

8 minutes ago, Pollack said:

Ravichandran Ashwin is a good spinner. At home, he is very good spinner. But he is not a great or atg. He benefitted from favourable pitches in India and absolutely pathetic standard of batting against spin by almost all countries. The same with Jadeja. In India, you just need to be a decent spinner. Look at Axar, he just started now in International test matches and he looks no worse than Jadeja already. Like I said any decent spinner will do.

 

 I don't think the pitches were like this in 2011 or something. In Galle both Ashwin and Bhajji played together. Ashwin took 10 wickets. Bhajji took 1 wicket.  Sangakkara is probably one of the best player against spin in history.

[Trichromatic]

1 hour ago, Pollack said:

Ravichandran Ashwin is a good spinner. At home, he is very good spinner. But he is not a great or atg. He benefitted from favourable pitches in India and absolutely pathetic standard of batting against spin by almost all countries. The same with Jadeja. In India, you just need to be a decent spinner. Look at Axar, he just started now in International test matches and he looks no worse than Jadeja already. Like I said any decent spinner will do.

 

We have countless number of times Indian spinners have failed to win the game against half decent batsmen in Indian conditions on flat pitches. So, it's not something that anyone can do. 

 

Pitches have been turner SA series, recent Eng series, and Aus series. 

 

No way any Indian team in history would have won 2016 England series 4-0 on those pattas losing tosses. It would have been all drawn games with Indian preparing turner in last match to win the series 1-0. 

 

Same goes for 2012 Aus series, 2016 NZ series or even 2012 NZ series. NZ were able to match scores of Sehwag, Dravid, SRT, Laxman in Indian conditions and draw 2 tests in 2010 series.

 

That's where likes of Ashwin and Jadeja create difference. Insane W/L of 16.5 since 2013 compared to best of 3 of earlier teams.

 

That type of record is not achieved by just being dependent on turners.

 

[Jay]

2 hours ago, Pollack said:

Ravichandran Ashwin is a good spinner. At home, he is very good spinner. But he is not a great or atg. He benefitted from favourable pitches in India and absolutely pathetic standard of batting against spin by almost all countries. The same with Jadeja. In India, you just need to be a decent spinner. Look at Axar, he just started now in International test matches and he looks no worse than Jadeja already. Like I said any decent spinner will do.

Then why shaabaz did **** in India vs england?? Any spinner wont do. You need to be a very good spinner to do wellin Indian conditions. 

Edited March 13, 2022 by Jay

[Jay]

50 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

 

We have countless number of times Indian spinners have failed to win the game against half decent batsmen in Indian conditions on flat pitches. So, it's not something that anyone can do. 

 

Pitches have been turner SA series, recent Eng series, and Aus series. 

 

No way any Indian team in history would have won 2016 England series 4-0 on those pattas losing tosses. It would have been all drawn games with Indian preparing turner in last match to win the series 1-0. 

 

Same goes for 2012 Aus series, 2016 NZ series or even 2012 NZ series. NZ were able to match scores of Sehwag, Dravid, SRT, Laxman in Indian conditions and draw 2 tests in 2010 series.

 

That's where likes of Ashwin and Jadeja create difference. Insane W/L of 16.5 since 2013 compared to best of 3 of earlier teams.

 

That type of record is not achieved by just being dependent on turners.

 

Ash abd jaddu are 2 of the best spinners in India conditions. Also benefited by atg Asian pace attack though. Perhaps kumble and co would have more stellar much winning performances ith such a potent India pace attack too. One that could rival ash and jadds dominance. 

[Lord]

5 hours ago, Pollack said:

Ravichandran Ashwin is a good spinner. At home, he is very good spinner. But he is not a great or atg. He benefitted from favourable pitches in India and absolutely pathetic standard of batting against spin by almost all countries. The same with Jadeja. In India, you just need to be a decent spinner. Look at Axar, he just started now in International test matches and he looks no worse than Jadeja already. Like I said any decent spinner will do.

so Warne,Murali,Lyon,Moeen etc are not decent spinners. Why do they have such shoddy records in India?

[Vilander]

10 hours ago, Pollack said:

Ravichandran Ashwin is a good spinner. At home, he is very good spinner. But he is not a great or atg. He benefitted from favourable pitches in India and absolutely pathetic standard of batting against spin by almost all countries. The same with Jadeja. In India, you just need to be a decent spinner. Look at Axar, he just started now in International test matches and he looks no worse than Jadeja already. Like I said any decent spinner will do.

 

Provide evidence for this. Ash is a great in Asia and par in SENA. 

[Vilander]

13 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Shami a

verages 35.60 NZ

averages  38.83 in England

 

Ashwin

averages 33.00 in NZ

averages 28.11 in England

 

Before shaming bowling to this hapless Englsh batting line up his average in England was 47

Average Strikerate wickets per match all together needs to be looked at to figure out who might be a better bowler, not considering match situation and contribution which could be varied and needs observant accounts. Your stat just shows Ashwin has better avg in Eng, what's your point? 

[vvvslaxman]

2 minutes ago, Vilander said:

Average Strikerate wickets per match all together needs to be looked at to figure out who might be a better bowler, not considering match situation and contribution which could be varied and needs observant accounts. Your stat just shows Ashwin has better avg in Eng, what's your point? 

 

Raw stat reading in SENA especially in the last 7 or 8 years for a spinner will not give the true picture. IN the most recent SA series there was nothing for spinners in any match. SA barely used Maharaja. 102 wickets fell to seamers in  that serires. 4 wickets fell to spinners. You expect him to take a fifer there?

[Lord]

18 hours ago, Vilander said:

Strikerate is number of balls bowled per wicket its an important stat, average is runs scored per wicket probably conventional wisdom is that its more important for spinners than pacers for whom the former is more important, but I feel all of them together gives a better picture for a casual fan but the best possible picture is knowing match situation and contribution which is often very difficult to summarise unless you are a professional or an expert in the area having spent resources tracking them for a particular player or team. Wpm is not useless if one gives less runs than opponent or have a frugal run restrictor in other end and they have a good strike rate meaning they spent runs in getting wickets quickly there are strike bowlers like that who were combined well for teams. So balanced look at all stats together is essential, so harbhajan had better returns than Ashwin in SENA meanwhile Ashwin is a legit goat contender in Asia along side Murali. So it's a wierd case for Ashwin even if he did OK job in SENA no one will have a problem accepting that he is a great bowler. I have often been frustrated following matches or series with him, a captain simply can't play him at the cost of a fast bowler or Jadeja when batting is needed because of his there or not there nature overseas. 

 

 

As I said average includes SR. If you are taking more balls for a wicket but giving less runs in those deliveries,thats more beneficial than taking less but being expensive. As it helps other bowlers too.

 

WPM in isolation is useless as it is a function of support bowlers/opposition etc. If support bowlers are not good obviously WPM will be higher.

[Vilander]

5 hours ago, Lord said:

 

As I said average includes SR. If you are taking more balls for a wicket but giving less runs in those deliveries,thats more beneficial than taking less but being expensive. As it helps other bowlers too.

 

WPM in isolation is useless as it is a function of support bowlers/opposition etc. If support bowlers are not good obviously WPM will be higher.

Strikerate gives you an idea as to how quickly wickets were taken like a generic number of balls stay the same what ever the location, if it were useless it would not be a seperate stat.  Average considers number of runs scored per wicket it does not really have strike rate within it, batsmen don't score fixed number of runs per ball.  Wpm is perhaps the single most important stat for a bowlers effectiveness, it the bowlers primary job of getting wicket. Of getting the opposition dismissed so that batsmen get their 10 chances to score the runs. I have discussed this topic enough. Cheers, I differ. 

[Vilander]

6 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Raw stat reading in SENA especially in the last 7 or 8 years for a spinner will not give the true picture. IN the most recent SA series there was nothing for spinners in any match. SA barely used Maharaja. 102 wickets fell to seamers in  that serires. 4 wickets fell to spinners. You expect him to take a fifer there?

Not aware what is raw stat reading. Stat is stat, I have already explained how i think can be used, of course if one can explain every match situation from every spin bowlers innings in a book and someone could read and summarise it here it would be better, in its absence we can use stats. 

 

Where have I spoken about Ashwin needing to take fifers? Wickets per match is more useful, Don't make straw man arguments pls. 

[vvvslaxman]

51 minutes ago, Vilander said:

Not aware what is raw stat reading. Stat is stat, I have already explained how i think can be used, of course if one can explain every match situation from every spin bowlers innings in a book and someone could read and summarise it here it would be better, in its absence we can use stats. 

 

Where have I spoken about Ashwin needing to take fifers? Wickets per match is more useful, Don't make straw man arguments pls. 

 

 

In England, Mishra, Agarkar average better than Kohli, Laxman, Sehwag. That is a stat. I we don't analyze the context we can safely make the conclusion Mishra/Agarkar are better player in ENgland.

[Vilander]

4 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

 

In England, Mishra, Agarkar average better than Kohli, Laxman, Sehwag. That is a stat. I we don't analyze the context we can safely make the conclusion Mishra/Agarkar are better player in ENgland.

Again I said average wpm strike rate that's average strike rate and runs per match in case of batters. Any one stat is just that one stat it needs to be a combination of stats. In the absence of an anthology of all matches and all match situations which does not exist. Stat padding exclusion is like a pareto you remove lower challenge opponents then you take care of 80% the rest 20% are the cases of lost cause or known draws against good opponents, there is no way to remove them unless you have an anthology of all matches. Not sure what we are arguing about. 

 

Its apparent as day light that Ash is a goat contender in Asia, and an also ran in SENA.