We Need to Talk About Dravid

[putrevus]

11 minutes ago, Lord said:

There's a seperate batting coach.

Yes, there is seperate batting coach but will he stop Dravid from coaching  players. I am more concerned about the team's identity. Dravid needs to establish an identity for this team. If it means making tough choices so be it.

 

All I am see from Dravid is recreation of trundler culture in white ball cricket.No player is bigger than the team, coach has to speak out if he is not happy with players or superstars.That is part of being coach.

 

Dravid unlike many coaches has earned enough as player and coach of under 19 already.So he does not have to worry about financial aspects like many other coaches. It is about his legacy as a coach.

Edited July 15, 2022 by putrevus

[vvvslaxman]

12 minutes ago, Lord said:

There's a seperate batting coach.

 

Yes i know. But there are no hard fast rules that Main coach can't help with batting adjustments. Clearly Kohli is making the exactly same mistake match after match out of habit.  Is it a senior thing? Seniors don't need tips? May be if we had made Inzamam as our coach Kohli would have listened lol

[nitinbwj]

Rathour is a batting coach? Abe khud to tere koh aati nahi. 

[putrevus]

1 minute ago, nitinbwj said:

Rathour is a batting coach? Abe khud to tere koh aati nahi. 

Is not Dravid 's fault then to keep him as a batting coach. Head coach is responsible for all aspects.

[putrevus]

4 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Yes i know. But there are no hard fast rules that Main coach can't help with batting adjustments. Clearly Kohli is making the exactly same mistake match after match out of habit.  Is it a senior thing? Seniors don't need tips? May be if we had made Inzamam as our coach Kohli would have listened lol

If that is the case then Dravid should speak out.Dravid is a legend, if he says Kohli is not listening to him so he cannot help him.Whole country will turn against Kohli.Making hard choices is also part of being a coach.

[Lord]

6 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Yes i know. But there are no hard fast rules that Main coach can't help with batting adjustments. Clearly Kohli is making the exactly same mistake match after match out of habit.  Is it a senior thing? Seniors don't need tips? May be if we had made Inzamam as our coach Kohli would have listened lol

 

There doesnt need to be rule. Dravid isnt pbligated to correct their techniques unless they specifically ask for help. And I doubt Kohli is the kind to ask for help. 

[Lord]

2 minutes ago, putrevus said:

If that is the case then Dravid should speak out.Dravid is a legend, if he says Kohli is not listening to him so he cannot help him.Whole country will turn against Kohli.Making hard choices is also part of being a coach.

yes like it happened with Kumble

[Lord]

14 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Yes, there is seperate batting coach but will he stop Dravid from coaching  players. I am more concerned about the team's identity. Dravid needs to establish an identity for this team. If it means making tough choices so be it.

 

All I am see from Dravid is recreation of trundler culture in white ball cricket.No player is bigger than the team, coach has to speak out if he is not happy with players or superstars.That is part of being coach.

 

Dravid unlike many coaches has earned enough as player and coach of under 19 already.So he does not have to worry about financial aspects like many other coaches. It is about his legacy as a coach.

 

As I see it we are in a transition phase. Saha,Ishant,Rahane have been discarded from Tests. Thats a good step.

 

Prasidh is a trundler? Others have been playing from Shastri days. 

 

Speak out to whom? Whole BCCI bends in front of Kohli. We have seen it many times.

[putrevus]

1 minute ago, Lord said:

yes like it happened with Kumble

What happened with Kumble?  Kohli was captain then and he was proved right Shastri was better coach than Kumble ever was.

 

Kohli is not captain now.

[putrevus]

Just now, Lord said:

 

As I see it we are in a transition phase. Saha,Ishant,Rahane have been discarded from Tests. Thats a good step.

 

Prasidh is a trundler? Others have been playing from Shastri days. 

 

Speak out to whom? Whole BCCI bends in front of Kohli. We have seen it many times.

BCCI had to bend in front of Kohli. He was the captain, he should get what he wants , if they don't think he was good captain he should have been kicked out as a captain. Kohli as a captain was just fine in all formats. I don't see what is the problemin BCCI listenting to him.

[Lord]

3 minutes ago, putrevus said:

BCCI had to bend in front of Kohli. He was the captain, he should get what he wants , if they don't think he was good captain he should have been kicked out as a captain. Kohli as a captain was just fine in all formats. I don't see what is the problemin BCCI listenting to him.

So how can a coach 'speak out' if one player rules the roost.

 

They'd rather kick out the coach than Kohli

[putrevus]

Just now, Lord said:

So how can a coach 'speak out' if one player rules the roost.

 

They'd rather kick out the coach than Kohli

He is not just one player, he was the captain.In Cricket captain is most important. Now Kohli is not captain so what is the problem for Dravid .

 

Rohit is the captain now and he should get players he wants in his team. 

 

Wins and losses go on captain's name not coach's name.

[sandeep]

9 hours ago, Vijy said:

he should not have taken it - not as though gangu had some secret blackmail stuff on him and forced him to do it. and after he took it - reluctantly or otherwise - it was his duty to improve the team in the aspects where it's lacking (which are many). hasn't done enough/anything about it

 

I think people are being impatient with Dravid.  I have already posted threads questioning Dravid's suitability for what Indian team needs to take that next step in its evolution. But having expressed my reservations, I think there are positive contributions that Dravid can make in his tenure.  Maybe not 100% of what's needed but some good non-trivial steps in the right direction.  At a minimum, I expect a better, more unselfish team culture to be attempted while he's coach, hopefully that can become more entrenched over time.  

 

Expecting Dravid as head coach to fix "technical" problems in batting etc is bit unrealistic.  At this level, minor tweaks and guidance is all a coach can provide.  Rest is up to the player.  For example, Can't blame Kohli's failures on coaching, its on him at this stage in his career.

[sandeep]

This is what I had written a while ago when Dravid first became coach:

 

 

  

On 11/17/2021 at 7:45 PM, sandeep said:

Everybody, and I mean literally everybody was in unanimous agreement, nodding away as to how Rahul Dravid was an excellent choice for the job of coaching the Indian national men's cricket team.  And they have been saying this for quite some time.  

 

Sure, he performed at an unquestionably brilliant level for the u19 team, the 'A' team, and the academy.   No doubt about it.  And that does support his case - to an extent.  

 

Dravid has personally, directly worked with almost 100% of the young players who will be in contention for slots in the test XI over the next few years.  He has established a working relationship and can build on that easily, and will enjoy a high degree of trust from players, given his reputation and consistent resume to be fair and impartial.  This is not a small thing for any Indian coach to enjoy, and has not been earned easily. 

 

Nor can one dispute his credentials and experience as an international player.  All of that being said, the job that he has just started with, is a different animal.  The Indian team is unlike any other cricket  team on the circuit.  This is a team, that is almost always, going to have 15+ test calibre players to pick from, for any given test match, in any given situation.   This is not a team filled with raw and inexperienced kids.  This is, quite literally, a team of all-stars - the best of best, cherry-picked from the top performers in the forty-seven teams of Indian First-Class Cricket.  The primary contribution that the coach of the national team is going to have to make, is going to be strategic.  What Dravid needs to bring to the table, is assist the captain - whoever that might be, in bringing this team up to speed with modern day cricket tactics - especially in the white ball arena.  This is where the Indian team has demonstrated consistent conservatism of approach - across the board, but especially with the bat.  

 

Some of us have been murmuring, elbowing, and then shouting with frustration - for multiple years now - about how the Indian team think tank has been preventing its talented players from delivering their best performances - especially when it comes to team performances as a whole.  For far too long - first under the much-hyped 'dhoniconda' template, the Indian white ball team chose to satisfy itself with aiming at "par" or 'close to par' totals.  'Take the big wobble and the indefensible low score off the table; even if it means giving up the possibility of achieving a par+50 score' - so went the Dhoni school of white-ball captaincy.  His preferred method of playing the odds, "taking it deep" with ball or bat, meant that India were perpetually happy with totals in the low 300s even when possessing players in their XI and squad who could potentially rip apart oppositions and set India on the path to consistent 350+ scores.  I still remember feeling hopeful when Virat took over as captain - surely this bloke - the modern day ODI run machine who possesses a preternatural instinct for ODI run-scoring, is going to move India beyond the 2011 batting template?  Especially taking into account the fact that the middle 30 over powerplay meant that the "old" math of 300 is a 'good' score was no longer true? But as we all saw, this was never going to be the case.  

 

Today I have to sit by and watch as England are crowned ODI champions, and they comfortably and consistently outperform India with the bat in white ball cricket - in spite of India having arguably (and for me unambiguously) much better batting skill and talent in their XI, their squad, and beyond.  And this is directly attributable to one thing and one thing alone - a refusal to adjust the team batting unit's mindset and methodology when it comes to ODI batting.  A refusal to demand more selflessness from the "top order", a refusal to ask the openers and #3 bat to stop chasing 'consistency' and individual landmarks in the guise of 'setting platforms', and bat to a team plan instead of an individual one.  

 

Now many on this forum know quite well that this batting methodology issue has been a pet peeve of mine, since 2015 - and yes, I am indeed harping on this a bit too much right now.  But this digression albeit a bit indulgent, is one that can support my ultimate point.  Which is to table a serious concern regarding what Rahul Dravid will or will not be able to bring to the table as Head Coach of Team India.  Can Dravid identify the strategic and tactical changes - major and minor - that this team needs to make, in order to take that next step and become the world-beating juggernaut it is capable of being?  

 

I do not doubt his willingness to do so.  But I wish I could be more confident on the question of whether he is capable or not.  

 

Take for example - the redemption and re-birth of Rohit Sharma the test batsman.  Love him or hate him, Ravi Shastri had the brains, to recognize the fact that Rohit still offered India the possibility of contributions at a 'great' level to the test team.  And he had the balls, to push forward and convert him into a test cricket opener, when he had never EVER, opened the batting at even a FC level.  This was a gutsy call, that flew in the face of conventional wisdom.  And as is always the case in Indian cricket - there were strong, logical, persuasive arguments to be made in favor of other players who 'deserved' the opportunity instead of Rohit, or offered better promise.  But Ravi 'gotey muh mein' Shastri made the big call, and stuck by it.  And look how it turned out.  Oh there were so many angry fans and words - as there always are with Indian cricket.  But now all of that has faded to black, and you will find even those who are on the record as Shastri haters, and Rohit Sharma disbelievers, begrudgingly accept Rohit as a critical, foundational member of the test XI.  

 

Rahul Dravid has made many a 'gutsy' call in his days.  As captain, he famously declared the Indian innings leaving Tendulkar at 194*.  I was watching that game live - and can recall all the drama and hype that went on and on; and on - about  that decision.  So its not that Dravid lacks the courage to make the tough call.  The question is, does he have the judgement? 

 

This is the captain, remember, that openly collaborated with 'Guru Greg' - a guy who was viciously selfish, made multiple moves and decisions that were distinctly and unambiguously, to the detriment of Indian Cricket.  Why?  Because Dravid has always been the guy that does the 'right' thing.  The 'textbook' thing.  The conventional thing. Does he now have what it takes to defy conservatism? To not advocate the 'textbook' solution?

 

And 8 times out of 10, there's not much terribly wrong with following the 'conventional wisdom'.  Its percentage cricket you see, playing the probabilities.  But there are many a times, when champion teams step up and differentiate themselves from the rest of the pack, by zigging instead of zagging.  And when push comes to shove, I don't know if Dravid is capable of that.  What is Dravid's record as coach in the IPL?  I'm not even going to bring up his time as a player in the IPL, and the 'test-class' Bangalore IPL squad that was put together around him in the inaugural IPL season.  

 

I do not have confidence that 'nice guy' Dravid - who was oh so good at mentoring and guiding all those young kids and prospects - whether its at the u19 team, the 'A' tours, or the academy - where the brief is exactly that - to be nice.  To be 'fair'.  To help everyone become the best version of themselves - whether that 'nice guy' Dravid can be ruthless enough to make that tough call.  To be "unfair" to a hardworking player who may be doing arguably well enough to hold their place in the team, in favor of that maverick who has not proven himself yet - but could be just the player that helps the India team take that next step to greatness.  

 

Take his debut game as Coach of Team India for instance.  India were playing at home, in a meaningless bilateral.  India played an XI with both Bhuvaneshwar Kumar and Deepak Chahar in it.  Avesh Khan -  the man in form, the bowler who impressed all and sundry this IPL as a genuine wicket-taking threat in multiple phases of the game, sat there on the bench wearing his yellow substitute apron.  Now one can argue that Deepak Chahar has done nothing 'wrong' to be benched - he has earned his right to be in  this game, a game being played in his 'home' state.  And hey, nothing wrong with that per se, its the nice thing to do - give a young player an opportunity to play an India game at his 'home' stadium.  But is that what's best for Team India?  

 

So tl;dr this long rant filled with random tangents and written as a stream of consciousness in about 10 minutes or so, boils down to this - The Indian national team is not filled with players that need hand-holding or mentoring.  Its a team that's stuck in the quick-sand of conservatism, and is in need of a tactical re-boot.  It is crying out for a strong leader, one that sets the tone on unselfish, team first, no-nonsense aggressive cricket.  A team that is expected to be continually blessed with a steady stream of prospects, but one that needs a Master and Commander that can direct that gush of talent, and extract collective greatness from them.  Be laser-focused on the goal of team greatness, and capable of ruthless decision making when the situation calls for it.  Can Dravid be that guy?  

 

 

 

[Lord]

7 minutes ago, putrevus said:

What happened with Kumble?  Kohli was captain then and he was proved right Shastri was better coach than Kumble ever was.

 

Kohli is not captain now.

We were no. 1 in Tests under Kumble too. Didnt tour SENA in his short tenure. Lost in SA 2017 and England 2018 under Shastri . He couldn't even get rid of Rahane let alone Kohli despite lack of runs. 

 

In LOIs both didnt win ICC tourneys,but atleast we made finals unlike losing in group stages in 2021

 

Kohli might not be captain but still holds a lot of power.

[Lord]

41 minutes ago, putrevus said:

He is not just one player, he was the captain.In Cricket captain is most important. Now Kohli is not captain so what is the problem for Dravid .

 

Rohit is the captain now and he should get players he wants in his team. 

 

Wins and losses go on captain's name not coach's name.

 

Yes so why is coach being blamed only for losses? What stops Rohit from dropping Kohli or whoever is failing?

 

Coach's main job is to create a good environment and assist captain in tactics and strategies. I don't see how he's failed at that just yet.

[putrevus]

8 minutes ago, Lord said:

We were no. 1 in Tests under Kumble too. Didnt tour SENA in his short tenure. Lost in SA 2017 and England 2018 under Shastri . He couldn't even get rid of Rahane let alone Kohli despite lack of runs. 

 

In LOIs both didnt win ICC tourneys,but atleast we made finals unlike losing in group stages in 2021

 

Kohli might not be captain but still holds a lot of power.

I am not talking about results of Kumble. If Kohli the captain had problem with Kumble the coach, he had to go. Captain in cricket is most important person. If Dravid cannot speak out against Kohli then he should not be coach.

[putrevus]

7 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

Yes so why is coach being blamed only for losses? What stops Rohit from dropping Kohli or whoever is failing?

 

Coach's main job is to create a good environment and assist captain in tactics and strategies. I don't see how he's failed at that just yet.

Nobody is blaiming Rahul for losses. But coach's main job is to create identity with captain . I don't see any such thing in last nine months. If Dravid was/is not happy with captain then he should not be coaching the team. 

[Lord]

9 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Nobody is blaiming Rahul for losses. But coach's main job is to create identity with captain . I don't see any such thing in last nine months. If Dravid was/is not happy with captain then he should not be coaching the team. 

Maybe because the captain has been largely unavailable and Dravid has had to work with 6 different captains.

 

Rohit-Dravid combo is yet to lose a series AFAIK.So I don't get why so much criticism is there already.

[putrevus]

11 minutes ago, Lord said:

Maybe because the captain has been largely unavailable and Dravid has had to work with 6 different captains.

 

Rohit-Dravid combo is yet to lose a series AFAIK.So I don't get why so much criticism is there already.

India just lost a unlosable test match  under Dravid.  He may have worked with 6 different captain on the field but those are all temporary , Rohit might not have played but he was there to discuss and implement the strategy. All others were temporary captain.

 

Nobody is asking Dravid to be sacked.