Who is India's best pacer of all-time in Tests, ODIs and T20Is?

[zen]

15 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

So in short, no source just your imaginations as always

 

Do your own research. 

 

"The story goes that  clearly  there were sections within the bowling department of the Indian team that were overwhelmed at the pace of TA Sekar and hence were not in favour of someone who had the tag of the ‘fastest Indian bowler’."

Edited June 6, 2023 by zen

[Lord]

3 minutes ago, zen said:

 

Do your own research. 

 

"The story goes that  clearly  there were sections within the bowling department of the Indian team that were overwhelmed at the pace of TA Sekar and hence were not in favour of someone who had the tag of the ‘fastest Indian bowler’."

you said Srinath himself complained about not being backed in his early days. Prove it

 

I can't research for your BS claims. TA Sekar is irrelevant.

[zen]

44 minutes ago, Majestic said:

That doesn't answer the question. How was Kapil the all rounder blocking the place of Srinath the bowler who could barely hold a bat? 

 

 

Because Kapil should have retired early duh ... Even most of his fans, including yours truly, think he should have quit in 1992 if not earlier (I would not have minded if he retired even in 1987) ... He continued for the "record" 

 

Ind did play Srinath once Kapil was out. 

 

Quote

Are you saying that the other pacers alongside Kapil were Ambrose/Walsh, Donald/Pollock, Wasim/Waqar level that Srinath had to wait for Kapol's retirement to find a place in the team? 

 

They just need to be better than Kapil, which is not a high benchmark ... Prabhakar, etc. were all bowling relatively better ... or with enough potential (like Srinath had, there was a Prasad too for e.g.) to develop to lead India's attack. In that time, Indian players took some time to adjust to international cricket too. 

 

 

Edited June 6, 2023 by zen

[zen]

3 minutes ago, Lord said:

you said Srinath himself complained about not being backed in his early days. Prove it

 

 

 

Yes, he did. 

 

Quote

I can't research for your BS claims. TA Sekar is irrelevant.

 

So convenient

 

 

[tapandrun]

The only Ind Pace bowler who was compared to or was talked about been one of best among the contemporaries has been Bhumrah.

 

Do not think anyother pacer came close to be compared with the best of their times.

 

Kapildev was always considered an allrounder and was one of the best AR among the contemporaries.

[tapandrun]

Every Ind star overstayed their welcome not just Kapildev. Be it Sachin, Gangully, Dhoni etc.

 

Before the invent of Social media and PR firms dejected players use to come-out and speak about it to newspapers local TV networks.

Yuvraj's Father had similar claims for Kapildev

 

Now with all the trolling and strong pr of star player its impossible for a domestic player or for that matter even Ind player with fewer fans its hard to seak-out.

 

 

[vvvslaxman]

6 hours ago, Lord said:

 

So in short, no source just your imaginations as always

 

I stayed clear of this thread as much as possible not to see some of the world-class context-free dumb arguments against Kapil. lol

[Majestic]

Some extremely stupid logics been used.

 

Potential, skills etc are used for youngsters and not for those who have completed their career. It's absolutely comical stuff and no surprise coming from whom 

[Majestic]

Btw, Srinath was a very honest tier pacer. He was a fast bowler who lacked the aggressive aura about him. Batsman like Ponting would sledge him out. Someone like Zaheer who bowled in mid 130s showed much more aggressive intent than him and wasn't too shy of sledging out batters.

 

India should not look to take inspiration from Srinath because he was simply not an aggressive mentality bowler. He demonstrates the defensive mentality of Indian cricket of 90s.

[zen]

28 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Some extremely stupid logics been used.

 

Potential, skills etc are used for youngsters and not for those who have completed their career. It's absolutely comical stuff and no surprise coming from whom 

Are you referring to the below scenario of 1990s:

 

“They just need to be better than Kapil, which is not a high benchmark ... Prabhakar, etc. were all bowling relatively better ... or with enough potential (like Srinath had, there was a Prasad too for e.g.) to develop to lead India's attack. In that time, Indian players took some time to adjust to international cricket too.”

 

 

 

 

[Majestic]

In 1990s, pitches had more assistance for bowlers than in 2000s where pitches suited batsman so there goes another lie of Srinath bowling on flat decks lol 

 

Srinath was a fast bowler which may get a few of ICFers over here excited but he had the mentality of timid defensive pacer which signified Indian cricket in 1990s as a country that couldn't win even one overseas test. But doesn't matter he bowled fast for 1.5-2 years so he is the best according to some 

Edited June 7, 2023 by Majestic

[Adamant]

Kapil is a better fast bowler than anyone named Bumrah (amongst Indians). 

And then he averaged 33 with the bat too with 8 centuries. 

 

That's a world class allrounder, right there. 

 

For example, the much hyped Ben stokes averages 35 with the bat and 32 with the ball. 

 

Before some idiot jumps in saying stats are irrelevant, unlike Stokes Kapil spearheaded our attack and was 10 times more important to the team than Ben Stokes is to England. 

[zen]

7 hours ago, tapandrun said:

The only Ind Pace bowler who was compared to or was talked about been one of best among the contemporaries has been Bhumrah.

 

Do not think anyother pacer came close to be compared with the best of their times.

 

Kapildev was always considered an allrounder and was one of the best AR among the contemporaries.

Both Bumrah and Shami are right up there with the best of their times. Zak and Srinath were pretty close, while Kapil was in a tier below. 

[express bowling]

10 hours ago, Majestic said:

Well that's greatness of Kapil Dev that he played so many consecutive game during this period. 

 

If you compare among the Windies pacers between 1974 and 1983, the matches played are :

 

Roberts 47

Holding 42

Garner 32

croft 27

Marshall 23

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=matches;qualmin1=75;qualval1=wickets;spanmax1=31+Dec+1983;spanmin1=01+Jan+1974;spanval1=span;team=4;template=results;type=bowling

 

 

Considering that back then , there was hardly any pacer picking 300+ test wickets, Roberts sample size was pretty good enough.

 

As for picking performing players is concerned, Kapil Dev merit the place as all rounder even in early 90s because he was an all rounder.

 

If he wasn't an all rounder he might not have played that many tests but still would have ended with close to 110 tests. However, point here is that he got his 250 wickets in first 6 years of his career only with hardly any support. Greatness was written right there for him.

 

 

 

Impact is the main factor considered for rating players.  The WI quicks had that impact for a significant period of time. All other reasons are not that important. 

 

 

[express bowling]

13 hours ago, Lord said:

Big difference in 30 Tests (Bumrah) and 47,58,60 Tests. These days they used to play county cricket too.

 

Longevity doesn't mean 100 Test only. But 30 is still too less. Give examples of that if any to compare.

 

 

Bumrah has not completed his career at 30 tests.

 

If he were to retire today, I would withdraw his claim in tests.

[Rightarmfast]

I think the comparison is like comparing apple to oranges. Past fast bowlers cannot be compared to the new breed as time has changed.

 

Till the 70's, it was an achievement for a fast bowler to just get selected. The ceiling was low. Kapil was a great bowler, but I think he is over rated. Srinath was genuinely world class, but didn't have support.

Bumrah is well and truly ahead. So good that he could be better than a Mcgrath or Steyn. There is no competition.

But that is only possible today because our mindset has changed. Our bowlers of the past had no backing, coaching and support that is available today. Cant blame them. What they did within that limitation should be appreciated, but that's about it.

[singhvivek141]

9 hours ago, Majestic said:

In 1990s, pitches had more assistance for bowlers than in 2000s where pitches suited batsman so there goes another lie of Srinath bowling on flat decks lol 

 

Srinath was a fast bowler which may get a few of ICFers over here excited but he had the mentality of timid defensive pacer which signified Indian cricket in 1990s as a country that couldn't win even one overseas test. But doesn't matter he bowled fast for 1.5-2 years so he is the best according to some 

Actually for 5-6 years...he was fast till 1997 and I guess was the only Indian pacer who was in top 20 pacer list published in 1997 in ODI's(17th position).
His injury collided with Sachin's captaincy tenure and when he came back...for next 6 months he was hardly fast. Cricket Samrat magazine of 1998 added the article saying "no Indian pacer in top 20 in ODI's". Srinath was at 21st position then.
He picked up his pace again from 1999-2001 and was again bowling quick.

Edited June 7, 2023 by singhvivek141

[singhvivek141]

2 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

I think the comparison is like comparing apple to oranges. Past fast bowlers cannot be compared to the new breed as time has changed.

 

Till the 70's, it was an achievement for a fast bowler to just get selected. The ceiling was low. Kapil was a great bowler, but I think he is over rated. Srinath was genuinely world class, but didn't have support.

Bumrah is well and truly ahead. So good that he could be better than a Mcgrath or Steyn. There is no competition.

But that is only possible today because our mindset has changed. Our bowlers of the past had no backing, coaching and support that is available today. Cant blame them. What they did within that limitation should be appreciated, but that's about it.

 

100% correct, there were many fast bowlers in Indian Cricket like Salgaonkar, Obed kamaal, Rajesh Yadav (brother of Shivlal yadav), Kailash Gattani who all were fast but never got a chance because Indian cricket preferred medium pacers who can bat. Hence Karsan Ghavri, Kapil Dev, Madan Lal, Roger Binny got the nod ahead of pure pacers.

Only from 1990's India started playing pacers like Venky, Mohanty, Harvinder, Johnson...though apart from Venkatesh and to an extent Mohanty rest all were beyond pathetic.
 

Indian Cricket started producing pacers from 1998 onwards when we got Agarkar, Zak, Nehra and co...and considering that...Shami and Bumrah are the best bowlers we have produced.

[Lord]

8 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

 

Bumrah has not completed his career at 30 tests.

 

If he were to retire today, I would withdraw his claim in tests.

Yes we are only talking as of now. He is not ATG yet

 

If he continues his form for even 20 more Tests we can start talking about it.

 

Biggest issue is how effective will he be past injury.

[zen]

No one in his right frame of mind will take Kapil as the main strike bowler (may consider him as an AR to bowl as 3rd or 4th pacer) even if he offered his services for free!