The 4 basic qualities needed to be a top pacer .... and tracking Indian pacers who have them now

[express bowling]

6 minutes ago, Abhilash93 said:

Isn't it too early to say that Harshit and Hangargekar have ability to bowl consistently in good areas ?

 

Have often seen them spray the ball around in many of the televised matches that I have watched.

 

Bowling in good areas is more of a tendency of bowlers. There are some who try to bowl in good areas and bowl to a plan. While there are others who just bowl some random deliveries without plan. I was talking about this tendency. 

 

Every pacer sprays the ball sometimes, like Cummins is going at 6 runs in the 4th test. 

 

 

[putrevus]

12 minutes ago, Abhilash93 said:

Isn't it too early to say that Harshit and Hangargekar have ability to bowl consistently in good areas ?

 

Have often seen them spray the ball around in many of the televised matches that I have watched.

It is too early, they have long way to go. They have tools to succeed which cannot be said for everyone.

[Vijy]

24 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

Bhuvi's batting ability was in tests and never in LOIs.  He had a batting SR of just 74 and batting average of 14 in ODIs.

I recall one (or maybe two) matches where he batted well in ODIs, but that's it. someone like deepak chahar is better than boobi in ODIs, not that I am advocating for either of them

[Lord]

19 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

I agree.

 

And if a pacer reduces pace after bowling for long then he won't be able hurry batsmen consistently.  Similarly flat pitch and set batsmen means the need to up pace to hurry them. Hence both are covered under the first point. Which is why I used the term consistently. 

 

And bowling dry spells means bowling in the right areas. 

 

yes, big problem with young pacers is fitness. They are used to bowl 4 over spells only.

[Lord]

2 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

Should have played Shami in red hot form in place of Bhuvi in WC 19 SF.

 

I was always surprised how an out an out fast bowlers' captain in tests could support that trundler in ODIs when Bhuvi was averaging 37+ in that format. 

 

Shami being left out was insane. Could have even played instead of Chahal as it was overcast. Chahal ended up conceding 60 runs in 240 score

[Lord]

2 hours ago, putrevus said:

IMO Bhuvi's batting ability was the reason why he was chosen over Shami . Plus Bhuvi somehow created this persona just like Dhoni  (in t20s)  that he is indispensible.

 

Bhuvi is/was very overrated. Only suited to certain conditions where most pacers will do well.

[Abhilash93]

2 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

Bowling in good areas is more of a tendency of bowlers. There are some who try to bowl in good areas and bowl to a plan. While there are others who just bowl some random deliveries without plan. I was talking about this tendency. 

 

Every pacer sprays the ball sometimes, like Cummins is going at 6 runs in the 4th test. 

 

 

Ok that way yes....these guys are definitely better than someone like Umesh Yadav was when he first came onto the scene.

[MK55]

I don't think we are ever going to find all bowlers satisfying all the desirable qualities mentioned.

And that is fine. I would rather prefer 2 bowlers who are decent in all the attributes and another 2 bowlers who specialize in one aspect. Off course, there should be some baseline level in the other attributes as well.

 

So, include one 150-plus bowler. It's a no-brainer. And absolutely no compromises here. No such thing as ok the guy bowls 87-88 miles and has good bounce/accuracy blah blah. Any sensible guy would know the importance of having at least one such bowler. Wood was literally the guy who kept England in the series. Has he ever swung the ball in his life? Plus a nation of more than 1.4 Bn should be able to come up with one such bowler. And if there's no such bowler, include the one who's close and build that guy.

 

Secondly, I do agree we gotta include some bowlers who are consistent in all areas. Someone like Cummins (although he's going downhill).

Regarding Siraj, I haven't seen him lately in test matches. From what I saw (more than 4-6 months back I think), he's way too up and down in pace. Can't be compared to Starc who at least bowls at 87-90 mph consistently. But Siraj has to be there in the team.

 

Bumrah in 2018 Aus series was terrific. I doubt we are ever gonna get that version. In LOIs I'm sure he'll be back to his peak. Test matches, I'm not sure but still even at 75%, he deserves his place. With no changes to his run-up, the question is when and not if he's gonna break down again.

 

So one 150-plus bowler with baseline skills in other aspects, a couple of guys who get decent bounce/ relatively more accurate and bowl 87-91 mph. And probably one more who either swings well or is able to bowl long consistent overs at at least 85 mph plus.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 21, 2023 by MK55

[putrevus]

44 minutes ago, MK55 said:

I don't think we are ever going to find all bowlers satisfying all the desirable qualities mentioned.

And that is fine. I would rather prefer 2 bowlers who are decent in all the attributes and another 2 bowlers who specialize in one aspect. Off course, there should be some baseline level in the other attributes as well.

 

So, include one 150-plus bowler. It's a no-brainer. And absolutely no compromises here. No such thing as ok the guy bowls 87-88 miles and has good bounce/accuracy blah blah. Any sensible guy would know the importance of having at least one such bowler. Wood was literally the guy who kept England in the series. Has he ever swung the ball in his life? Plus a nation of more than 1.4 Bn should be able to come up with one such bowler. And if there's no such bowler, include the one who's close and build that guy.

 

Secondly, I do agree we gotta include some bowlers who are consistent in all areas. Someone like Cummins (although he's going downhill).

Regarding Siraj, I haven't seen him lately in test matches. From what I saw (more than 4-6 months back I think), he's way too up and down in pace. Can't be compared to Starc who at least bowls at 87-90 mph consistently. But Siraj has to be there in the team.

 

Bumrah in 2018 Aus series was terrific. I doubt we are ever gonna get that version. In LOIs I'm sure he'll be back to his peak. Test matches, I'm not sure but still even at 75%, he deserves his place. With no changes to his run-up, the question is when and not if he's gonna break down again.

 

So one 150-plus bowler with baseline skills in other aspects, a couple of guys who get decent bounce/ relatively more accurate and bowl 87-91 mph. And probably one more who either swings well or is able to bowl long consistent overs at at least 85 mph plus.

 

 

 

 

 

Problem is 150 plus don't come around that often. In India we never had those bowlers so it is that much harder.

[express bowling]

44 minutes ago, MK55 said:

I don't think we are ever going to find all bowlers satisfying all the desirable qualities mentioned.

 

There are lots of pacers having all the 4 attributes. Infact 90% of the pacers with low averages in tests and ODIs would qualify. 

 

And this is because pacers don't have to reach extreme levels at all the attributes but sufficient levels.

 

44 minutes ago, MK55 said:

 

 Wood was literally the guy who kept England in the series. Has he ever swung the ball in his life?

 

Express pacers like Brett Lee and Shoaib Akhtar both moved the ball a lot. So did Allan Donald or Shane Bond. Steyn could bowl express spells and was a master of outswing. Johnson moved the ball too. 

 

We need to find express pacers like these. 

 

Wood is an average bowler who averages 30 in tests and 38 in ODIs. And this is because he can't move the ball. Nor does he have the fitness to play a few matches on the trot. 

 

 

44 minutes ago, MK55 said:

Secondly, I do agree we gotta include some bowlers who are consistent in all areas. Someone like Cummins (although he's going downhill).

 

Agree. 

 

 

44 minutes ago, MK55 said:

Regarding Siraj, I haven't seen him lately in test matches. From what I saw (more than 4-6 months back I think), he's way too up and down in pace.

 

 

Siraj has the ability to hurry batters whether he is bowling 135 to 145 k or 130 to 140 k.

 

But if we can find a better pacer, I am all for it. 

[MK55]

59 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

There are lots of pacers having all the 4 attributes. Infact 90% of the pacers with low averages in tests and ODIs would qualify. 

 

And this is because pacers don't have to reach extreme levels at all the attributes but sufficient levels.

 

 

 

See that's where we differ in our perspectives.  Instead of having 4 guys with sufficient levels in all 4 attributes, I prefer 2 guys of that type and two more of extreme type in an attribute they specialize with baseline levels in other attributes.

Wood may be mediocre, but if you can bowl a few spells here n there with impact and win your your team a series, I'd rather have a guy like him. He's one of the main reasons England are still in the Ashes. I'd prefer impactful bowlers like that n the side.

 

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, MK55 said:

 

See that's where we differ in our perspectives.  Instead of having 4 guys with sufficient levels in all 4 attributes, I prefer 2 guys of that type and two more of extreme type in an attribute they specialize with baseline levels in other attributes.

Wood may be mediocre, but if you can bowl a few spells here n there with impact and win your your team a series, I'd rather have a guy like him. He's one of the main reasons England are still in the Ashes. I'd prefer impactful bowlers like that n the side.

 

 

No difference in perspective.

 

What I mean is adequate amounts of all 4 qualities but 2 of them can be and preferably should be extreme.

 

Like Extra pace and bounce and adequate accuracy and movement like Donald.

 

Or Extra pace and great accuracy with adequate movement and good bounce like  Bumrah. 

 

Or super pace and bounce and adequate movement and accuracy like Shoaib. 

 

Or Extra Bounce and great accuracy with adequate pace and movement like McGrath or Walsh or Garner. 

 

Or Extra pace and movement with adequate accuracy and bounce like Steyn. 

 

So on.and so forth. 

 

And ideally mix and match different types. 

[Vk1]

I know I am digressing but frankly all of our issues are down to one thing that we are lacking - intent. 
We are content with what we have.. superstars, bcci getting 100x wealth than they would have imagined.. chal ra he.. let it continue.  If not for Ganguly, bcci heads and superstars would even say there is no need to win icc trophies as we are ranked 1.

 

Joe Root played reverse scoop while being down 2-1 in ashes and that too against Pat Cummins.. its Joe Root who did that. Imagine any of our players doing that in such a high stakes scenario( baring Pant ) 

Edited July 21, 2023 by Vk1

[putrevus]

4 hours ago, Lord said:

 

Bhuvi is/was very overrated. Only suited to certain conditions where most pacers will do well.

I never said he was great but somehow he did earn reputation as a great white ball bowler atleast in the eyes of Indian captains and selectors.He rarely picked wicket and yet he was almost certain to play in every match till recent world t20.

[singhvivek141]

7 hours ago, putrevus said:

I never said he was great but somehow he did earn reputation as a great white ball bowler atleast in the eyes of Indian captains and selectors.He rarely picked wicket and yet he was almost certain to play in every match till recent world t20.

That's because of his decent performances in IPL, even there Pant and Sarfaraz had brutally smashed him. But these gora firangis played him as if he is Malinga ultra pro max.

In the internationals tournaments, same gora frangi will beat him like anything.

[vvvslaxman]

1 quality last name has to be Kumar.

[Lord]

15 hours ago, putrevus said:

I never said he was great but somehow he did earn reputation as a great white ball bowler atleast in the eyes of Indian captains and selectors.He rarely picked wicket and yet he was almost certain to play in every match till recent world t20.

 

yeah I was adding to your point.

 

The guy was timid. No aggression that we usually associate with fast bowlers.

[putrevus]

8 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

That's because of his decent performances in IPL, even there Pant and Sarfaraz had brutally smashed him. But these gora firangis played him as if he is Malinga ultra pro max.

In the internationals tournaments, same gora frangi will beat him like anything.

So you mean to say, it was a consipiracy by Gora firangis .

 

Three players whose hype I have never understood.

 

MS Dhoni as great finisher in t20s, I have not seen one single match when Dhoni was valuable as a finisher for India in t20s.He sure has lost manyt20s due to him unable to even score minimum runs.

 

Bhuvi and his whiteball skills.

 

Pandya and his so called hitting ability along with his bowling.

 

[Majestic]

Hangrekar 6 overs 48 runs

Harshit Rana 6 overs 51 runs

 

So much of injustice towards youngsters for not getting th chance. Need to get over this delusion as the fact is golden phase is gone and the only hope is that Bumrah and Pant returns back to their old form otherwise there is a clear dearth of talent and quality in the country.

[world-cricket]

15 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Hangrekar 6 overs 48 runs

Harshit Rana 6 overs 51 runs

 

So much of injustice towards youngsters for not getting th chance. Need to get over this delusion as the fact is golden phase is gone and the only hope is that Bumrah and Pant returns back to their old form otherwise there is a clear dearth of talent and quality in the country.

Both are rubbish.

 

We are a very weak and unathletic people,so no chance of finding any quick bowlers or big hitters.Even fielding is poor.We should stick to slow bowling and tuk tuk batting.