When will this Shardul Thakur experiment end?

[Majestic]

2 hours ago, sensible-indian said:

WIth all due respect sir, this beautiful analysis is WHAT is everything is wrong with Indian cricket.

 

Guys remember how I talked about how cricket is being run based on PERCEPTION in the match thread.

 

This post right here is the best example of how perception clouds your judgement and makes you think the wrong decision is the right decision and keep making the same mistake over and over again.

 

Jaise fans. Waise management.

 

2 hours ago, sensible-indian said:

We don't since we don't have the options.

 

1. We won 2 series in Aus with a 4 bowler attack (for most part). The toughest place in the world to win a series other than India.

 

2. Reason? The 4 bowler attack literally forced us to be disciplined with our bowling choices (like using spinner to hold one end up and blast pacers from the other end). And if pacers are doing great, they can bowl in tandem anyways.

 

3. When we used 5 bowlers there, we used 2 spinners, both of whom actually saved our asses in different tests in the 2020 series. Playing them may NOT be possible in a place like SA but we missed that trick in Eng and lost a winnable championship.

 

4. Picking 5 bowlers is ONE thing but knowing how to use them is another. 5th bowler is someone who will ONLY bowl a few overs to give breather and be impactful with the bat. When you pick 4 seamers and 1 spinner, you make the spinner the 4th bowler and the 5th bowler to be a pacer (who can bat).

 

Example:

 

a) Nathan Lyon being used by Aus (as a 4th bowler) in pitches that have very little for spin.

 

b) While Ashwin actually bowled pretty well in this test, he is a bad 5th bowler and a much better 4th bowler. These mini spells are the most useless way to use him.

 

c) Jaddu is a FAR better 5th bowler (and he can be a 4th bowler too if he is in form). And can bat better in general.

 

Irony is that if we HAD actually gone with 4 bowlers in this test (say not picking Prasidh or Shardul), the game would have been much closer. We would have still lost but our limitations would have forced us to play better.

 

My assumption is you want India to play 4 bowlers. Recall the Gabba Test 2020.

 

We won with Sundar and Shardul in the team. Both contributed very well with bat and bowl both.

 

We didn't won in Australia 2020 with 4 bowlers strategy. The 5th bowler( a proper A/R) played a key part, whether it was Jadeja or Sundar. The only game we lost 36-9, we didn't had a proper A/R.

 

Shardul has been a good test bowler in SENA conditions. He will have bad days but he has played a part in ensuring India win more games overseas in last few years than what they had won before that.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Majestic

[AKane]

19 minutes ago, express bowling said:

40 minutes ago, AKane said:

Give it to Prasidh.....

 

He himself weakened his case today by not displaying any intensity while bowling.

 

Yesterday I excused his opening spell as nerves but today he should have showed more intent. 

 

Somebody is messing with these people mentally. Maybe it is el capitan Rohit. 

 

The way Rohit was micromanaging Siraj in the WC semifinal and configuring every ball Siraj bowled was almost criminal.

[sensible-indian]

12 minutes ago, Majestic said:

 

 

My assumption is you want India to play 4 bowlers. Recall the Gabba Test 2020.

 

We won with Sundar and Shardul in the team. Both contributed very well with bat and bowl both.

 

We didn't won in Australia 2020 with 4 bowlers strategy. The 5th bowler( a proper A/R) played a key part, whether it was Jadeja or Sundar. The only game we lost 36-9, we didn't had a proper A/R.

 

Shardul has been a good test bowler in SENA conditions. He will have bad days but he has played a part in ensuring India win more games overseas in last few years than what they had won before that.

That's ONE test match out of 8 tests in both 2018 and 2020 series.

 

1. How did we win 2018 Adelaide? 4 bowlers (with Ashwin).

 

2. How did we win 2018-19 Melbourne? 4 bowlers (with Jaddu).

 

3. How did we almost win Sydney 2018-19 before rain saved Aus? 5 bowlers (Jaddu & Kuldeep)

 

4. How did we do well with the bowl in Adelaide 2020? 4 bowlers (with Ashwin)

 

5. How did we win Melbourne 2020-21? With 5 bowlers (Ashwin & Jaddu - Ashwin doing the damage)

 

6. How did we save Sydney 2020-21? With 5 bowlers (Ashwin & Jaddu - Jaddu doing the damage)

 

7. How did we win Gabba? With 4 bowlers (more due to situation but management took a GREAT call of playing Sundar over Kuldeep purely for control and batting and it paid off in Gabba).

 

Look at the sample sets.

 

This is fundamentally the issue with our team.

 

We ignore data.

 

We ignore reality.

 

We glean WRONG insights from a game.

 

We don't course correct.

 

Shardul WAS a good bowler in SENA.

 

Bowled great in Gabba. Was good in Eng series 2021. Did great in one of the tests in SA.

 

He was HORRIBLE in the WTC finals. 4.46 economy.

 

He was HORRIBLE this test. 5 economy.

 

These aren't bad bowling performances. They are match losing bowling performances.

 

The question isn't whether Shardul deserves to be chances or not...the question is whether guys like Shardul are EVEN needed right now?

 

And the answer (based on his bowling these days) is a RESOUNDING no.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by sensible-indian

[AKane]

6 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

Shardul WAS a good bowler in SENA.

 

Bowled great in Gabba. Was good in Eng series 2021. Did great in one of the tests in SA.

That was when he bowled good length and tried to swing the ball.

 

He has tried to convert himself to a hit the deck short ball bowler and it is just not working. I don't know what made him change what was working before.

 

Meanwhile predictably he has lost his swing. Adage - don't fix what is not broken.

Edited December 28, 2023 by AKane

[sensible-indian]

I am not saying India should always play 4 bowlers.

 

I am saying play 4 bowlers IF the 5th bowler cannot give you batting strength.

 

Batting gets stronger and you are forced to be disciplined with your bowling changes cos you don't have endless options (applicable for captains who aren't that good with bowling changes).

 

Rohit's usage of Shardul and Prasidh ensured SA ran away with this game. If he didn't have access to both of them, we would have atleast performed better.

 

As for 5 bowlers, I have been a huge proponent of 3 pacers + 2 spinners combo for nearly 10 years now.

 

But that's not practical in most pitches in SA.

[sensible-indian]

Just now, AKane said:

That was when he bowled good length and tried to swing the ball.

 

He has tried to convert himself to a hit the deck short ball bowler and it is just not working. I don't know what made him change what was working before.

Oh I didn't know that. That's sad.

 

Looks like a bowler who would bowl 1 good delivery followed by 4 bad ones.

 

One thing I have noticed is that he tries the magic ball which ensures he is wayward and concedes too many runs.

 

Shardul has been awful in every format in recent times.

[putrevus]

This notion that they need to try bench strength just to try for the sake of it is very popular on here . It serves no purpose just to try bench strength if main players are healthy and want to play.

 

Prasiddh is prime example, he has played enough cricket for him not to look so awful.

[Lord]

3 hours ago, Malcolm Merlyn said:

If you don't have a pace bowling AR, you don't have a pace bowling AR. That's it.

You cannot play a poor bowler with the expectation that he may score a few runs once in a while.

That's not how test cricket is played.

Bowlers win you test matches. You needed 4 fast bowlers who could do a job. You picked Shardul as one of them.

Thats pathetic.


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baaki 3 ne kya kiya

[AKane]

12 minutes ago, Lord said:

baaki 3 ne kya kiya

This is the problem with people like Thakur. He and Rahane and Pujara are magnets for criticism and soak in all the criticism and the rest skate free.

[ash]

First of all, we cannot even call him as an allrounder. His batting skill is similar to Harbhajan, Kumble, Agarkar or Buvi. Not even Irfan Pathan level. If we really need an allrounder, better to go with someone like Vijay Shankar or Hardik - a batsman who can bowl a bit. 
 

He had couple of good fluke innings, but can we see him doing it consistently? 

[Adamant]

3 hours ago, sensible-indian said:

WIth all due respect sir, this beautiful analysis is WHAT is everything is wrong with Indian cricket.

 

Guys remember how I talked about how cricket is being run based on PERCEPTION in the match thread.

 

This post right here is the best example of how perception clouds your judgement and makes you think the wrong decision is the right decision and keep making the same mistake over and over again.

 

Jaise fans. Waise management.

Shardul Thakur > Ashein in SENA

guys the problem is Ashwin not Thakur

[ash]

5 minutes ago, Adamant said:

Shardul Thakur > Ashein in SENA

guys the problem is Ashwin not Thakur

spinner and 5th bowler is the problem in SENA , and not the 3 and 4th seamers who were leaking runs left and right? 
 

if it is between Ashwin and Jaddu, Jaddu is the right choice, but no way is Thakur better than Ashwin in SENA or in India. 

[sensible-indian]

57 minutes ago, Adamant said:

Shardul Thakur > Ashein in SENA

guys the problem is Ashwin not Thakur

Ok.

[bowl_out]

5 hours ago, sensible-indian said:

Another gem. Irony is Shardul was used as the 3rd seamer here with Prasidh being the 4th seamer and they promptly lost us this test while the 5th bowler actually bowled well and gave us much needed control.

 

It's like some of our fans are in some alternate reality.

 

Dunno what but been this way for the last 2 years.

If Shardul is seen the 3rd bowler, that is idiotic captaincy.  You need 4 bowlers + a Shardul like player. He can't be seen as your top 4 bowlers..

 

[sensible-indian]

3 hours ago, bowl_out said:

If Shardul is seen the 3rd bowler, that is idiotic captaincy.  You need 4 bowlers + a Shardul like player. He can't be seen as your top 4 bowlers..

 

Based on the way he was used - he was the 3rd pacer for the test.

 

5th bowler is someone who can bowl 10 tight overs a day and bat well.

 

Shardul can do neither so he ain't a 5th bowler.

 

He used to be a good 4th bowler but now he isn't.

[Frustrated]

When your frontline pace bowlers are unable to take enough wickets even on spicy pitches and leak a lot of runs, the 4th or 5th bowler' role is significantly reduced.  Yes, Thakur is trash...  But what did Bumrah and Siraj do?  (Not talking about debutant prasidh. Of course he was ***).    Look at what Rabada did in both innings.  SA didn't hv to rely on 3rd or 4th or 5th bowler at all in the entire test.    Can Bumrah or Siraj ever hit those line & lengths which Rabada did?  

[sensible-indian]

1 minute ago, Frustrated said:

When your frontline pace bowlers are unable to take enough wickets even on spicy pitches and leak a lot of runs, the 4th or 5th bowler' role is significantly reduced.  Yes, Thakur is trash...  But what did Bumrah and Siraj do?  (Not talking about debutant prasidh. Of course he was ***).    Look at what Rabada did in both innings.  SA didn't hv to rely on 3rd or 4th or 5th bowler at all in the entire test.    Can Bumrah or Siraj ever hit those line & lengths which Rabada did?  

Yes, main pacers didn't do the job.

 

Shardul and Prasidh ensured SA ran away with the game.

 

-----

 

Shardul & Prasidh - 194/2 in 39 overs. 5 rpo.

 

Rest - 214/8 in 69 overs. 3 rpo.

[Frustrated]

53 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

Yes, main pacers didn't do the job.

 

Shardul and Prasidh ensured SA ran away with the game.

 

-----

 

Shardul & Prasidh - 194/2 in 39 overs. 5 rpo.

 

Rest - 214/8 in 69 overs. 3 rpo.

Shastri also stressed the same and was quite vocal about Thakur.  One possible replacement option could hv been Arshdeep. But then we will hv the same old problem of a long tail.  Last 4 batters together can't score even 10 runs.  https://www.hindustantimes.com/cricket/he-is-not-a-baby-shastri-knocks-down-shardul-thakur-amid-abysmal-bowling-sends-ranji-trophy-sos-to-arshdeep-singh-101703808815664.html

[AKane]

1 hour ago, sensible-indian said:

Shardul & Prasidh - 194/2 in 39 overs. 5 rpo.

 

Rest - 214/8 in 69 overs. 3 rpo.

 

This is one way of looking at it. There is a more complicated way - when Thakur took Elgar wicket SA were 360/6. Prasidh and Thakur had taken 2 wickets and Bumrah and Siraj had taken 4.

 

Bumrah and Siraj took 1st and 2nd new ball plus the innings start and early morning bowl - and just 2 wickets more. Prasidh and Thakur bowled to set batsmen.

 

At 360/6 - the match was largely done no matter how much you want to emphasize the last 2 wickets taken heroically by Bumrah.

 

BTW not to nitpick but Bavuma did not bat so 214/7.

Edited December 29, 2023 by AKane

[BlueBlood]

I can't believe the batsmen skate through criticism.

 

Elgar scored 185 and shut India from the game completely.

 

Why couldn't Rahul convert his 100 to 175? Because he has no hunger as he felt his job was done.

 

Or throwing debutant like Jaiswal straight into opening the batting against fresh Rabada and dropping Kohli to comfortable #4 where he gets to play once ball gets old.

 

Why carry Iyer when he clearly has technical flaws against short balls and Gill who cannot play swing?

 

It's mind boggling that they didn't take Sai Sudarshan instead of Iyer who is a much better Test batsman without clear flaws. And Sundar over Ashwin for his better batting and a left arm pacer over Prasid especially since Sardarji was in his prime in ODI's.

 

Basic mistakes like this cost you games. 

 

Kohli and Rohit should have opened and protected Jaiswal who is playing their first tour. 

 

Now that new comers failed, they will bring back Pujara and Rahane and keep Rohit Kohli for another 4 years citing experience.

 

Reality is the team gave up before the tournament even started with their body language. Australia really took the moral out of the team after WC final loss.

 

Siraj, Rohit, Kohli, Gill, Bumrah, Iyer have still clearly not recovered mentally.