Caste discussion in Indian cricket and TN cricket

[Muloghonto]

10 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

Mihirkula the Hun King completely destroyed Buddhism in North India....  He probably was the most devastating Emperor India had ever seen in Ancient times...  Built a huge number of Shiv Temples in Kashmir though. 

MIhirkul was a hun, he is not addressed as an Indian emperor anywhere except by his own edicts and every single other inscription mentioning him mentions him being a mlechcha. So calling mihirkul an indian emperor is like calling Queen victoria an Indian empress. 

 

[Vilander]

On topic unfortunately people are so clannish, caste group creed linguistic origin , same villager, countrymen etc will always be there till humans are around. Clan meant safety survival during human evolution so we are naturally inclined it’s pretty primal and base human instinct. People with some ammount of intelligence normally get out of this, but when they lack it they normally give importance to caste etc. so don’t expect to have intelligent conversations with someone that believes in this.. 

[coffee_rules]

7 hours ago, Vicks57 said:

Source: The Untouchables by ambedkar

 

Did Brahmins eat beef? Yes

 

Did Brahmins sacrifice cattle to do their yagnas ? Yes

 

Why did they shift to vegetarianism? To one up Buddhists - possible rationale given by B.R. Ambedkar.

 

Btw, Brahmins were skillful butchers as well.

 

Source: The decline and fall of Buddhism by jamnadas

 

"At one time even the Brahmins must have had the skill of skinning the animals, when, as Ambedkar puts it, "For the Brahmin every day was a beef-steak day". Ambedkar has discussed this topic in great detail with quotations from Atreya Brahmana and concludes: "Brahmins were not merely beef-eaters but they were also butchers". But they lost this skill when they became vegetarians in order to outsmart the Buddhists. [W&S, 7, 335 ff.] Therefore, during the days of decline of Buddhism, as a part of Kalivarjya changes in laws during the so called Rajput period, say from 900 - 1200 A.D., we find a restriction on the Brahmins, not to kill the animals themselves, and they were prohibited from becoming a "shyamitra", i.e. one who kills animals by strangling or suffocating, during a yajnya. [Kane: 1965: 1002]  "

 

Read the answer given by historian on "slaughter"

https://www.google.com/amp/s/frontline.thehindu.com/cover-story/the-cow-was-neither-unslayable-nor-sacred-in-the-vedic-period/article23593282.ece/amp/

 

Book of the same historian:

https://sanskritdocuments.org/sites/gomAtA/The-Myth-of-the-Holy-Cow.pdf

 

Literally the first chapter talks about animal sacrifice.

 

Another excerpt from ambedkar's books:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thehindu.com/books/why-did-the-brahmins-become-vegetarian-br-ambedkar-asks-in-this-excerpt-from-beef-brahmins-and-broken-men-an-annotated-critical-selection-from-the-untouchables/article30208983.ece/amp/

 

 

Book : Riddles of Hinduism by ambedkar page: 158

 

Among the ancient Aryans there was well established procedure of reception to be given to a guest which is known as Madhuparka the detailed descriptions regarding which will be found in the various Grihya Sutras. According to most of the Grihya Sutras there are six persons who deserve Madhuparka. Namely (1) Ritvij or the Brahmin called to perform a sacrifice, (2) Acharya, the teacher, (3) the Bridegroom, (4) The King, (5) The Snatak, the student who has just finished his studies at the Gurukul and (6) Any person who is dear to the host. Some add Atithi to this list. Except in the case of the Ritvij, King and Acharya, Madhuparka is to be offered to the rest once in a year. To the Ritvij, King and Acharya it is to be offered each time they come. The procedure consisted first in washing by the host the feet of his guest, then the offer of the Madhuparka and the drinking of it by the quest accompanied by certain Mantras. 

 

 

Ambedkar is NOT an authority On ancient or even medieval history let alone Vedic. He is very much influenced by faulty translations of Vedas by western indologists. Marxist historians target Hinduism and all wrongs and they think Buddhism is anti-thesis of Hindu philosophy. While Buddha himself a kshatriya , a proud one at that, believed in varnashram and also ate meat. Buddhists as pronounced originally by Buddha also was very ritualistic. 
 

Vedas preaching eating beef or sacrifices of Cow or Horse is highly misinterpreted by all esp early Marxists. Stop reading Periyar or DMK paper pushers.

 

Nobody can be better than Panini in Sanskrit grammar and meaning of words. Read this article:

 

https://www.firstpost.com/india/why-eminent-historians-claim-cow-flesh-was-consumed-in-vedic-times-despite-no-evidence-to-back-it-10387301.html/amp

 

”The rule of the Vedas that a cow is Aghnya has been reiterated again and again in Sanskrit literature. The Mahabharata (15.39) says, “The one who himself doesn’t eat meat but even if he gives his consent to eat meat or kill animals, he becomes equally sinful as them”. The meat eaters who kill an animal in the name of yajna or tell that it is a requirement of the yanja is a sinner and he will go to hell (15.43). “The one who brings an animal to be killed, the one who buys the animal to be killed, the one who kills the animal, and the one who sells, buys, cooks and eats the meat are all sinners (15.45).” This shows that the Vedic yajnas did not involve any animal sacrifice.

…

 

Goghna” is one such word. Taranath interpreted it as “the killer of a cow” ignoring the meaning given by 8th century B.C. grammarian, Panini. Panini explained the meaning of this word as “the donee guest who receives a cow.” By changing the meaning, Taranath imposed the suggestive meaning on Hindus that they ate cows, in order to provide legitimacy to those who were and are eating cows. There is no reason, whatsoever, to accept Taranath’s interpretation of “goghna” in place of the meaning given by Panini, unless someone proves that Taranath of the late 19th century was closer in his understanding of Vedic Sanskrit and was greater Sanskrit scholar than Panini. Taranath did precisely the same with the word ‘Ashwamedha’. It is wrong to think that the Ashwamedha horse was meant for killing and eating at the end of yajna.

 

Even if what Marxists and Ambedkarites say is true, sanatanis have always believed in reform, introspection. Hence the longevity and antiquity. Smritis are only time bound and applies only to the societies of that time. Early humans ate raw meat until fire was invented.  If early Brahmins ate beef, there is no justification or compulsion that modern day Brahmins have to eat it too. They have reformed and moved on. 

 

Edited April 17, 2024 by coffee_rules

[coffee_rules]

Ontopic:  It’s become open season to demean a caste for over representation. Power hitting or pace bowling is not a caste or race thing, esp in Cricket where it is purely and has to be based on merit.  Asians can’t play victim card and do RR because they’re underrepresented in NFL . Caste abuse is normalized in India and it can’t be or shouldn’t be tolerated in ICF!! 

[Lone Wolf]

6 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

MIhirkul was a hun, he is not addressed as an Indian emperor anywhere except by his own edicts and every single other inscription mentioning him mentions him being a mlechcha. So calling mihirkul an indian emperor is like calling Queen victoria an Indian empress. 

 

Similar like Kushans who were not Indians or Sakas but as they established massive empires in Into India and kinda assimilated with locals so they technically became Indian....  All these tribes were earliest of Gurjar communities  to settle into India. 

[Real McCoy]

6 hours ago, Vilander said:

Hey fella how are you 

Fine buddy its been a long time how are you?

[Real McCoy]

.

Edited January 24, 2025 by Real McCoy

[diga]

10 hours ago, Vicks57 said:

Source: The Untouchables by ambedkar

 

Did Brahmins eat beef? Yes

 

Did Brahmins sacrifice cattle to do their yagnas ? Yes

 

Why did they shift to vegetarianism? To one up Buddhists - possible rationale given by B.R. Ambedkar.

 

Btw, Brahmins were skillful butchers as well.

 

Source: The decline and fall of Buddhism by jamnadas

 

"At one time even the Brahmins must have had the skill of skinning the animals, when, as Ambedkar puts it, "For the Brahmin every day was a beef-steak day". Ambedkar has discussed this topic in great detail with quotations from Atreya Brahmana and concludes: "Brahmins were not merely beef-eaters but they were also butchers". But they lost this skill when they became vegetarians in order to outsmart the Buddhists. [W&S, 7, 335 ff.] Therefore, during the days of decline of Buddhism, as a part of Kalivarjya changes in laws during the so called Rajput period, say from 900 - 1200 A.D., we find a restriction on the Brahmins, not to kill the animals themselves, and they were prohibited from becoming a "shyamitra", i.e. one who kills animals by strangling or suffocating, during a yajnya. [Kane: 1965: 1002]  "

 

Read the answer given by historian on "slaughter"

https://www.google.com/amp/s/frontline.thehindu.com/cover-story/the-cow-was-neither-unslayable-nor-sacred-in-the-vedic-period/article23593282.ece/amp/

 

Book of the same historian:

https://sanskritdocuments.org/sites/gomAtA/The-Myth-of-the-Holy-Cow.pdf

 

Literally the first chapter talks about animal sacrifice.

 

Another excerpt from ambedkar's books:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thehindu.com/books/why-did-the-brahmins-become-vegetarian-br-ambedkar-asks-in-this-excerpt-from-beef-brahmins-and-broken-men-an-annotated-critical-selection-from-the-untouchables/article30208983.ece/amp/

 

 

Book : Riddles of Hinduism by ambedkar page: 158

 

Among the ancient Aryans there was well established procedure of reception to be given to a guest which is known as Madhuparka the detailed descriptions regarding which will be found in the various Grihya Sutras. According to most of the Grihya Sutras there are six persons who deserve Madhuparka. Namely (1) Ritvij or the Brahmin called to perform a sacrifice, (2) Acharya, the teacher, (3) the Bridegroom, (4) The King, (5) The Snatak, the student who has just finished his studies at the Gurukul and (6) Any person who is dear to the host. Some add Atithi to this list. Except in the case of the Ritvij, King and Acharya, Madhuparka is to be offered to the rest once in a year. To the Ritvij, King and Acharya it is to be offered each time they come. The procedure consisted first in washing by the host the feet of his guest, then the offer of the Madhuparka and the drinking of it by the quest accompanied by certain Mantras. 

 

 

Circle jerk continues.. 

[Real McCoy]

.

Edited January 24, 2025 by Real McCoy

[Muloghonto]

1 hour ago, Lone Wolf said:

Similar like Kushans who were not Indians or Sakas but as they established massive empires in Into India and kinda assimilated with locals so they technically became Indian....  All these tribes were earliest of Gurjar communities  to settle into India. 

kushans and shakas were referenced in indian sources as indians -probably because they'd assimilated and while that happened with the huns eventually, it didnt happen under the reign of Mihirkula and by the time it did, the Huns had lost their ethnic identity. 

 

[rollingstoned]

22 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

 

You are right mostly. But I have to point out that vedic culture of old didn't have meat eating. The introduction of varnashrama only started with the Vedic period. So brahmins are forbidden to eat meat. You could even say even the other varnas were not eating meat. Sacrifices were made only right before wars to get the army started and not be taken aback by the blood letting.

 

Its only pre vedic people and those who stuck with it and not merge with the vedic movement who ate meat especially beef. This is probably why persians have similar but opposite paradigms. They venerate the asuras and devas are considered to be bad guys This is only my opinion and I'm happy to be proven wrong with quotes from actual scriptures.

Western Indologist circle jerk is the only one which tries to concoct ex nihilo the 'muh Hindus had steak parties every day' part with the aid of tortured translations and extremely liberal interpretations of the former. You can include frauds like devdutt Pattnaik in this category along with every shade of lumpen Marxist jhollachhap anti intellectual.

Closest thing to blasphemy in Hinduism has injunctions against cow slaughter which has direct Smriti pramanas, the other being Brahmahatya and devninda. 

Ambedkar is not an authority on even Buddhism, as evidenced by the desire to concoct his own religion all based on his own arbitrary interpretation of Buddha and his precepts which all other Buddhists reject, let alone Sanskrit and thus Hinduism or any of its scriptures. 

 

The whole issue was just a matter of soft targets and a chance to appear virtuous by riding on the coat tails of stale and oft repeated narratives of 'oppression' which can allow you to claim anything was a result of 'caste based chauvinism', indulge in wanton double speak and basically transfer the responsibility to prove any non-culpability on the one being accused,  a process which has been fine tuned like an algorithm and which no one else is subjected to. Apart from the Hindi heartland Savarnas, Brahmins throught India are notoriously atomised with negligible land holdings or political power other than their ability to function as a reliable tax base in most of India which was why they mananaged to blackmail even the BJP to bring in an EWS quota in response to the draconian Sc/St act after the 2019 MP elections which they lost. 

Cho ramaswamy, Subbu and Gurumurthy types from the Mylapore lobby are the exception rather than the norm in TN landscape. You hear Annamalai and JSD talking and they will tell you why many of the community left TN like both sides of my family in the 30s and 40s to go to other parts of India and attempt to build a new life, Mumbai and Calcutta most prominently. 

[Real McCoy]

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Edited January 24, 2025 by Real McCoy

[Real McCoy]

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Edited January 24, 2025 by Real McCoy

[rollingstoned]

9 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

 

By "they", do you mean leftists or Brahmins? I ask because its not clear the way you typed. Your forebears left in the 30s? How do you retain your Tamil identity after such a long time? Can you understand Tamil or is it as foreign to you as Indian languages are to Indian Americans. I had a college mate who was a brahmin who is not the type of guy who looks to go abroad started looking to go abroad. I asked him why the change and based on my stay in US, I told him living in America will not assist in retaining our culture. He said that its not different here anyways. I was shocked that he came to the conclusion.

By they I meant combined vote bank of Upper castes there. Obviously not leftists. 

My Tamils suck but I can speak and understand it and I can't read it. I spent large part of my childhood in a predominantly Iyer locality in Mumbai and was exposed to every community ritual and event so it's not like I feel like some complete foreigner  when I go to T Nadu lol. Mom's side owns some land in Coimbatore and we started going every year to the Trichy area which is where my dad's side is from. I conducted his 60th bday over there last year and quite enjoyed going to several temples in that area all of which were quite grand and majestic esp Srirangam. 

[diga]

24 minutes ago, Vicks57 said:

 

 

Brahmin community is like 10 percent of India. How on earth did they manage to get EWS quota of 10 percent?

 

EWS or economically weaker section includes all the people of the state earning lower income and not just Brahmins...  and no Brahmin willingly applies for it unlike other castes 

[Real McCoy]

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Edited January 24, 2025 by Real McCoy

[rollingstoned]

29 minutes ago, Vicks57 said:

 

Cho, Subbu, Gurumurthy types are the norm in rest of India. Subbu is a Delhi Politician. He is not related to TN politics.

 

Brahmin community is like 10 percent of India. How on earth did they manage to get EWS quota of 10 percent?

 

I am not against economic reservation but 10 percent ???There was no protest, no commission and EWS was handed to them on a silver platter.

 

Mandal commission and the fight to get OBC reservation was a tumultuous process. Lots of suicides, burnt bodies, civil unrest.

 

That by itself speaks volumes about the power of Brahmins in RSS, BJP.

 

JSD? Dude is a joke.  Idiot lives in lala land.

 

Annamalai is a huge disappointment despite being an educated person with experience in administration.

 

There was/is no Brahmin persecution in TN.  Mumbai is the financial capital of India. Dharavi is full of Tamils.

No they're not. You see what you want to see by indulging in acute sampling bias. Politicians and public figures who make it to the public eye are by their very definition a minority. It would be like Saying just because we find rich sc/St and obc politicians that this is the norm in the rest of India. Arbitrarily definied 'Privilege' is obviously a one way street. Subbu eg was cited only because of his caste which seems to be the crux of the discussion and what you people obsess about regardless of where he is practicing his career. 

 

Go look up why it was awarded in the first place. When you get out of the bizarro universe you inhabit you will come to understand that for an UC to be poor or lacking in economic means is a fate far worse than anything else in this country who have institutionalised seeing him as someone with defacto privileges which is far from the case. 'Oppressed subalterns' who have the eohut to be perpetual victims meanwhile can ride the gravy train of caste oppression and file fake sc St cases to settle personal scores. 

The UC population in India btw is close to 28%, it is not just a 'Brahmin quota'. If the putative goal is 'social upliftment' then instead of trying to fragment a society by constantly exaggerating beyond breaking point a chimera of historical millenia okd oppression which is far from a settled fact make the whole system agnostic to caste - a thing we are told has to be eradicated - and throw it open to anyone who needs it. The chance to 'double dip', like we see in Govt college admissions can't be allowed, which is what this is chiefly meant to address. Unless you think only some groups are allowed a voice and a right to consolidate and then protest which would be on brand for most Bhimtas and D stocks. 

 

Mandal commission should have been opposed tooth and nail by anyone who had the well being of the country in mind and even more so since it was based on categories, ideas and half baked censuses conducted by the British who themselves arbitrarily created categories like scheduled castes and tribes without any rigor or research to follow it since it was first implemented. Successive govts since have only institutionalised this process by politicising it making it a useful plank on which to build political careers by weaponising the language of equity and social justice. Many of these 'OBC' categories were created without even bothering to find out if these communities are even Oppressed often times including those of whom are large landholding castes with a lot of political clout in their respective states regardless of what historical Varna they belonged to or finding themselves on it due only to a spelling mistake in thr case of the Meenas.and then threatening the state of consequences if it ever reversed it. This is the sort of retarded race to the bottom we are supposed to laud as a vehicle for social change and upliftment lol. All the burnt bodies, civil unrest was for naught and a big indictment against the whole institution itself re what it seeks to achieve. 

Not even their fraud hero Ambedkar had this in mind when he asked for it while they run entire political movements and narratives around his rhetoric and image. 

 

Bjp/rss were not the ones who championed EWS but were forced to include it after protests and an uproar from UC communities against the SC St act they themselves passed, read properly. Yea so much 'sway' Brahmins have in Bhajipao/rss that they couldn't even prevent an Act from being passed which even the SC opposed for being unconstitutional ans violating the principles of justice all for vote bank politics which says until oeoven innocent anyone from this community will be deemed guilty. Lol. Contrary to what you believe and despite your ignorance the 'Hindutvavadi fascist' party has more in common with Bhimrao and his views than the view that the ignoramuses in the left liberal Secular cabal would have you believe that they're a bunch of neo traditional bhagwadhaari far right fascists intent on gassing everyone they disagree with. 

 

For someone who doesn't have the first clue about most of the things he seems to be talking about and orobably sees betiyar as The madrasi Socrates, its quite natural he will find someone who speaks only facts and knows how to connect them a 'joke who lives in lala land ' based purely on the fact that it's inconvenient for him and blows a hole in his own fabulistic world view. He should stick to listening to room temperature iq deemka ideologues who masturbate to kumari kandam and Brahmin women, rahul Gandhi who has similarly pernicious but retarded views about caste censuses along with watching Dhruv tatti, ravish Kumar, the Wire on loop all day. Projection is strong in this one. 

 

 

Annamalai stands and does what any educated person who is fed up of the Neanderthals wet dream ie the current TN political landscape would do. It makes those who have thrown their lot in with the status quo feel threatened and seethe understandably. 

 

Demonstrably false and can be easily cited, both anecdotally by the testimonies of people who left TN, public statements of both the antecedents and descendants of the Dravidian movement throught a period of a century and the kind of narratives we see normalised in Tamil cinema which is in complete thrall to these ideologues till date. Something which you don't want to accept is not the same as it not happening. But then you lot would have cheered on a genocide if it happened too by saying they probably deserved it and had it coming to them. Small mercies it didn't come to that. 

 

 

 

 

[rollingstoned]

21 minutes ago, Vicks57 said:

 

 

No, EWS only applies to general caste or Forward caste who are not part of OBC, SC, ST.

 

"No Brahmin willingly applies for it unlike other castes" 

 . Don't make me swear.

When you have multiple other reservations for other castes abs categories who get the same benefit if not more why the jealousy over EWS selecting for a specific group too? There are more criteria for availing EWS than there is any of your other gorillion reservations which even someone with a net worth of 100cr can avail. 

Edited April 17, 2024 by rollingstoned

[rollingstoned]

1 hour ago, Vicks57 said:

 

Clearly you haven't come to terms with your inferiority complex. If Brahmins do something, I will do it. Clearly, you accept that Brahmins have some superior moral sense to you on some level. Vedas give me license to eat beef. So I will do it. The worst form of idolatry is the idolatry of the book. This kind of thinking itself speaks volume about the position of Brahmins in warped view of Hindu/Indian Society. 

 

Maybe you have changed or maybe you haven't because you say everything in past tense.

 

This Brahmin superiority complex must be crushed. 

You have it backwards. What is written comes to be written because it was practised, not the other way round. 

There is also an entire process around how the smrits come to be codified for each Yuga also, while being descriptive and not prescriptive it's not intended to be valid till eternity. Parampara and achara are not invalid just because it may not find mention in any Shastra which is proof of it 

[rollingstoned]

29 minutes ago, Vicks57 said:

 From the link you shared,

 

"From Rig Veda and Atharva Veda we know that meat of a few domestic animals like sheep, goat, buffalo, bull, ox, male calf, etc, were consumed but not cow."

 

Buffalo, bull, ox, male calf are all beef. 

 

So once again,

 

Did Brahmins perform animal sacrifice in Yagnas and eat beef? Yes

 

Rig Veda is older than Mahabharata. Animal sacrifices are common during yagnas. 

 

"If early Brahmins ate beef, there is no justification or compulsion that modern day Brahmins have to eat it too. They have reformed and moved on. "

 

Who asked them to? They can practice vegetarianism. No one is forcing them physically or mentally to eat beef or any other meat.

 

Read the whole thing properly. It also debunks the bs - pun intended - you spouted where you made huge leaps to suggest that there was some grand BBQ parties which were being conducted by yeevil Brahmins who forcibly abducted peoples animals and sacrificed them.