Mukesh Kumar has the fortitude of a soldier.

[maniac]

@singhvivek141 I always have a method to my madness when I rate someone. Just in terms of temperament and pressure handling Mukesh has some qualities. Maybe Akash has them too but haven’t seen it. The talent difference between Sachin and probably the best domestic player at that time might be not so high but the temperament factor will have a gulf between them. Mental game is 80% of your international talent.

[singhvivek141]

1 hour ago, maniac said:

Akashdeep : can he be better than Mukesh based on some questionable domestic numbers where Ravindra Jadeja has 3 300s and Jaiswal has 0 300s. Bowled one opening spell against bazball hacks with new ball in friendly conditions and went missing after that. The answer is Maybe! 
 

Mukesh: Has he performed more or less at the same level or even better than Akash in internationals?  Yes

 

Is he better than Akash in IPL: leagues ahead

 

Has he shown temperament under pressure: Yes

 

He was used as a third seamer which is the most underrated position in Indian overseas test wins. Even when we had Srinath-Prasad we came close many times to win but didn’t have a proper third seamer. So Mukesh’s work needs to be appreciated in cleaning up the tail. That’s always a challenge for Indian pacers.

 

 

Only thing puts Akash over Mukesh is your fandom for him at this point.

 

Maybe he is better: time will tell. Both are trundlers with a lot of utility and Mukesh has shown more utility at this point where it matters.Mukesh right now is way way ahead.

 

Let's agree to disagree on this.

 

Everyone has their biases and way to look at things.

When I look at the bowler I judge him on below parameters in Tests

 

1. Can he maintain minimum pace 135k while bowling 18-22 overs in a day

2. Can he get the lateral and/or vertical movement of the pitch

3. Can he contribute with bat and on field.

4. Does that bowler have the mental strength to run again and bowl the same delivery again and again which was causing discomfort to the batter.

 

Those bowlers who are lazy and don't know how to bat or field are the biggest curse on Indian Cricket.

Such bowlers in my opinion should never be picked for the international games. Coz they don't have the will to improve.

 

Bumrah improved his batting and fielding, Arshdeep became better. Siraj for some reason has stopped playing those brainless hoicks. Kuldeep is a good batter lower down the order.

 

Chahal is another one who is extremely lazy and never worked on other skills. 

[singhvivek141]

1 hour ago, maniac said:

@singhvivek141 I always have a method to my madness when I rate someone. Just in terms of temperament and pressure handling Mukesh has some qualities. Maybe Akash has them too but haven’t seen it. The talent difference between Sachin and probably the best domestic player at that time might be not so high but the temperament factor will have a gulf between them. Mental game is 80% of your international talent.

Absolutely, not denying that.

Anyone who spends time on this forum and give his logical inputs is someone who are interested in the Indian Cricket and want its betterment.

 

Choices may vary, sometimes ones ego, emotion and bias too cloud the judgement. But if I look at the motive, its always pure for India.

[goose]

and the pace of amit mishra

[maniac]

1 hour ago, singhvivek141 said:

Let's agree to disagree on this.

 

Everyone has their biases and way to look at things.

When I look at the bowler I judge him on below parameters in Tests

 

1. Can he maintain minimum pace 135k while bowling 18-22 overs in a day

2. Can he get the lateral and/or vertical movement of the pitch

3. Can he contribute with bat and on field.

4. Does that bowler have the mental strength to run again and bowl the same delivery again and again which was causing discomfort to the batter.

 

Those bowlers who are lazy and don't know how to bat or field are the biggest curse on Indian Cricket.

Such bowlers in my opinion should never be picked for the international games. Coz they don't have the will to improve.

 

Bumrah improved his batting and fielding, Arshdeep became better. Siraj for some reason has stopped playing those brainless hoicks. Kuldeep is a good batter lower down the order.

 

Chahal is another one who is extremely lazy and never worked on other skills. 

Fair enough

[Nikhil_cric]

The only problem with Akashdeep is his lack of efficacy with the old ball. 

 

He bowled a gun new ball spell and then with the old ball he looked worse than Siraj.  Just didn't get reverse and his pace dropped. 

 

In Australia , that's the key.  

 

Bowlers who can be effective between overs 30 and 80 before the 2nd new ball.

 

And it's the toughest place to bowl in that phase when the kookaburra goes soft and the morning moisture vanishes. 

 

 

[Kron]

4 hours ago, maniac said:

@singhvivek141 I always have a method to my madness when I rate someone. Just in terms of temperament and pressure handling Mukesh has some qualities. Maybe Akash has them too but haven’t seen it. The talent difference between Sachin and probably the best domestic player at that time might be not so high but the temperament factor will have a gulf between them. Mental game is 80% of your international talent.

Mukesh is good in very helpful wickets. On flatter surfaces he struggles

[Lord]

1 minute ago, Kron said:

Mukesh is good in very helpful wickets. On flatter surfaces he struggles

 

That's the 'Kumar' speciality.

[tapandrun]

Donot think Mukesh is Odi and Test bowler - Ind had to call  Akash Deep from outside of the original team.

 

Mukesh was not even in the reserves for this T20i -WC. Unable to make into DC playing 11 unless they are going all Ind bowling unit.

He had some decent performances in t20s is able to bowl Yorkers during last few overs but his fielding and batting are big minus. Ind need batting from bowlers to be good t20 side.

 

IPL was an example of what is coming next 200-220 will be just par like how 320 in ODIs is. Teams are trying to bat out oppositions.

 

170 in WC-Finals on a rather decent wkt was looking doable with just 1 bad over , similarly 190 against Aus was doable till head was batting.

 

In t20s there is no good bowler unless they have some mystery or are Malinga, Pak had a good template for a T20bowling attack but as soon as one of the component stopped working they looked ordinary.

 

2 years back term enforcer was lot in use, teams were looking for some1 who can break the match in the middle overs , Ferguson for NZ, Rauf for Pak.

but now no 1 is taking about that role, t20 is changing at a v.rapid rate. 

 

T20 needs bowlers who can take away that 2/3 seconds from the batter before they get into their power/hitting stance.

 

LAF has some ability to take regular wkts in t20s not sure why that is, none of the experts have explained this till now. But LAF has an advantage in t20s every team wants it 

 

  

Edited July 9, 2024 by tapandrun

[maniac]

37 minutes ago, tapandrun said:

Donot think Mukesh is Odi and Test bowler - Ind had to call  Akash Deep from outside of the original team.

 

Mukesh was not even in the reserves for this T20i -WC. Unable to make into DC playing 11 unless they are going all Ind bowling unit.

He had some decent performances in t20s is able to bowl Yorkers during last few overs but his fielding and batting are big minus. Ind need batting from bowlers to be good t20 side.

 

IPL was an example of what is coming next 200-220 will be just par like how 320 in ODIs is. Teams are trying to bat out oppositions.

 

170 in WC-Finals on a rather decent wkt was looking doable with just 1 bad over , similarly 190 against Aus was doable till head was batting.

 

In t20s there is no good bowler unless they have some mystery or are Malinga, Pak had a good template for a T20bowling attack but as soon as one of the component stopped working they looked ordinary.

 

2 years back term enforcer was lot in use, teams were looking for some1 who can break the match in the middle overs , Ferguson for NZ, Rauf for Pak.

but now no 1 is taking about that role, t20 is changing at a v.rapid rate. 

 

T20 needs bowlers who can take away that 2/3 seconds from the batter before they get into their power/hitting stance.

 

LAF has some ability to take regular wkts in t20s not sure why that is, none of the experts have explained this till now. But LAF has an advantage in t20s every team wants it 

 

  

most teams have majority right handers. I remember SL team having a lot of lefties in the X1. Left arm angle can create issues for righties especially if you are trying to over attack in a T20 scenario. Going back to Mukesh, he will be useful on dry surfaces with reverse or in seaming conditions. Has the skills, now has to add 5k pace. Can he do it at this phase of his career, needs to be seen however with the skills he has so far, I think he is adequate as a bench player.

[tapandrun]

22 minutes ago, maniac said:

most teams have majority right handers. I remember SL team having a lot of lefties in the X1. Left arm angle can create issues for righties especially if you are trying to over attack in a T20 scenario. Going back to Mukesh, he will be useful on dry surfaces with reverse or in seaming conditions. Has the skills, now has to add 5k pace. Can he do it at this phase of his career, needs to be seen however with the skills he has so far, I think he is adequate as a bench player.

Again then these will be condition dependent players, the reason why Ind wins lot of bilateral cups and finds it hard to win  icc trophies and team always looks like its lacking something. Had Kolhi not got runs in the Finals that Rohit and Kolhi experiment was a bust, its 11th hour calls because they have been playing condition dependent players.

 

With the kind of resources Ind can create bespoke sides against any team and give them a good competition but when it comes to major ICC trophies what is needed are player who are good in all conditions and then you can add 1/2 players suited for those particular condition.

 

On Mukesh do not think he has kind of pace with red ball to be effective with reverse swing.

 

Not oppose of trying any1 in t20s as Ind lacks mystery bowler or some1 like Malinga/Pathirana. 

If Ind does not find those kind of bowlers for t20s then they have to create a template with some offensive and some defensive bowlers with few overs from allrounders 

 

 

Edited July 9, 2024 by tapandrun

[express bowling]

Mukesh Kumar made his debut for Team India in all 3 formats in early 2023.  Had been a regular since then in bilateral ODIs and T20Is.

 

But come the Asia Cup 2023 and World Cup 2023, he was dropped. The same happened during the T20 WC 2024. He was not even among the reserves.

 

Was dropped after one bad test against England. 

 

TMs find it hard to depend on him when the big tournaments / series come.

 

And this is often the case with medium pacers who are not that tall or bouncy either  ( unless they have magical swinging ability or decent batting ability )

 

What is the point of playing bowlers in preparatory bilaterals if they cannot be picked in the big matches / tournaments  ??  Why not prepare a pacer who can be picked in big tournaments / series. ?

 

 

[maniac]

15 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Mukesh Kumar made his debut for Team India in all 3 formats in early 2023.  Had been a regular since then in bilateral ODIs and T20Is.

 

But come the Asia Cup 2023 and World Cup 2023, he was dropped. The same happened during the T20 WC 2024. He was not even among the reserves.

 

Was dropped after one bad test against England. 

 

TMs find it hard to depend on him when the big tournaments / series come.

 

And this is often the case with medium pacers who are not that tall or bouncy either  ( unless they have magical swinging ability or decent batting ability )

 

What is the point of playing bowlers in preparatory bilaterals if they cannot be picked in the big matches / tournaments  ??  Why not prepare a pacer who can be picked in big tournaments / series. ?

 

 

Khaleel was picked as the reserve in WT20 because Shaheen, Starc, Topley, Jansen open bowling for top teams. So he was the additional net bowler as Arshdeep Singh was a regular. Also like for like for Arshdeep.

 

Avesh was taken as a like for like for Siraj (on paper).

 

 

[maniac]

*wrong thread 

Edited July 9, 2024 by maniac

[express bowling]

17 minutes ago, maniac said:

Khaleel was picked as the reserve in WT20 because Shaheen, Starc, Topley, Jansen open bowling for top teams. So he was the additional net bowler as Arshdeep Singh was a regular. Also like for like for Arshdeep.

 

Avesh was taken as a like for like for Siraj (on paper).

 

 

Avesh is very different from Siraj in terms of bowling style. Moreover, Siraj's bowling style is hardly a benchmark in T20s. 

[maniac]

13 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Avesh is very different from Siraj in terms of bowling style. Moreover, Siraj's bowling style is hardly a benchmark in T20s. 

You needed an experience 3rd seamer in USA conditions and Siraj was picked as he is an all format star. Rohit, Pandya, Kohli , Jadeja, Bumrah, Siraj, Kuldeep and if available Shami are picked beyond IPL performances. Thats how it works.

 

You may like him

or not is a different matter, Avesh has been earmarked for a while as a bench bowler. There might be 10 “tailunts” who bowl a couple of spells in IPL but a lot of factors are considered.  Once his chances run out the next one gets in line. That’s fair. Apart from Mayank due to his express pace none of the other bowlers have done anything to go ahead in queue.  
 

 

Edited July 9, 2024 by maniac

[express bowling]

27 minutes ago, maniac said:

You needed an experience 3rd seamer in USA conditions and Siraj was picked as he is an all format star. Rohit, Pandya, Kohli , Jadeja, Bumrah, Siraj, Kuldeep and if available Shami are picked beyond IPL performances. Thats how it works.

 

You may like him

or not is a different matter, Avesh has been earmarked for a while as a bench bowler. There might be 10 “tailunts” who bowl a couple of spells in IPL but a lot of factors are considered.  Once his chances run out the next one gets in line. That’s fair. Apart from Mayank due to his express pace none of the other bowlers have done anything to go ahead in queue.  
 

 

Long story short, Siraj and Avesh are nothing special as T20 bowlers ... but preferred in big tournaments over Mukesh because they have more pace and bounce than Mukesh. ( given the fact that none of the 3 are bowling all-rounders )

Edited July 9, 2024 by express bowling

[maniac]

14 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Long story short, Siraj and Avesh are nothing special as T20 bowlers ... but preferred in big tournaments over Mukesh because they have more pace and bounce than Mukesh. ( given the fact that none of the 3 are bowling all-rounders )

the bowling allrounders are Thakur and Chahar. Dont know if they are match fit. Rest all are 19-20 in batting in fielding so the bowler with the best bowling ability gets picked. How that is assessed is subjective: maybe Mukesh was the best suited for these conditons due to his success in SA. This series is in same conditions.

[maniac]

Also I dont think I am advocating Mukesh as the main bowler in all 3 formats 

 

currently

Bumrah

Shami

Siraj

 

these are our 1-2-3 in all formats.

 

Arahdeep in T20 ahead of Siraj

Pandya in white ball 

Thakur in tests and Odis.

 

The rest is bench who have been picked.

Khaleel, Avesh, Mukesh, Akashdeep, Prasidh (who I still think is part of the plans for red ball and Odis) , Tushar Deshpande, Harshit Rana.

 

It’s just giving  someone a fair chance. Some of them might have had more good days than bad, the day it exceeds the next one will be in line.

 

it should be consistent for all.

 

One more season of pace and Mayank Yadav will get a wild card entry.  

Beyond this I don’t see any ground breaking bowler. please don’t tell me Kuldeep Sen and Umran Malik

[singhvivek141]

6 hours ago, maniac said:

Also I dont think I am advocating Mukesh as the main bowler in all 3 formats 

 

currently

Bumrah

Shami

Siraj

 

these are our 1-2-3 in all formats.

 

Arahdeep in T20 ahead of Siraj

Pandya in white ball 

Thakur in tests and Odis.

 

The rest is bench who have been picked.

Khaleel, Avesh, Mukesh, Akashdeep, Prasidh (who I still think is part of the plans for red ball and Odis) , Tushar Deshpande, Harshit Rana.

 

It’s just giving  someone a fair chance. Some of them might have had more good days than bad, the day it exceeds the next one will be in line.

 

it should be consistent for all.

 

One more season of pace and Mayank Yadav will get a wild card entry.  

Beyond this I don’t see any ground breaking bowler. please don’t tell me Kuldeep Sen and Umran Malik

Tbh...I don't understand the rationale behind hating Umran Malik so much.

 

He has outperformed Mukesh in the 2 formats where they both have played. Yet, people diss him as he is some erratic, brainless spraygun.

 

For strong bench strength as well, one need to pick the bowlers who are suitable for most of the conditions and pitches. As this bench strength is from where you will develop bowlers who will replace the first choice ones when they are unavailable.

 

Rather that selecting those who can only bowl at certain phases and conditions and would remain a burden for the team for remaining duration is a regressive step.

 

We carried Bhuvaneshwar Kumar for years over Shami coz he was supposedly accurate. Now people have accepted than Bhuvi is not even 30% of what Shami has given us. Yet Shami kept on missing games for Bhuvi's mythical skills.

Edited July 10, 2024 by singhvivek141