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Syro-Malabar Church favours amendment to Waqf Act, cites property disputes in Kerala

Gollum

By Gollum
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Gollum Grand Master

Gollum

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Posted (edited)

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What a draconian act. After claiming an entire TN village (with zero Muslims) including a 1500 yo temple (built pre-Islam), then an entire village in Bihar (95% Hindus), Kerala Christians are being tortured...village of 600 Christian families in Kochi, with proper documents, asked to vacate. No such law for any other religion. They can claim our house tomorrow and onus will be on us to disprove it in front of waqf tribunal, until then their property. Also no appeal can be made against the tribunal's decision in any court. What is this BS? 

 

 

Edited by Gollum
Gollum Grand Master

Gollum

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Muslim organizations, politicians like Owaisi already working towards a civil war if this amendment is brought. Lots of propaganda in mosques, mobilization, protests, this will be like Shaheen Bagh but 10 times worse. 

Mariyam Grand Master

Mariyam

Posted
Posted
On 9/29/2024 at 1:12 AM, Gollum said:

LINK

 

What a draconian act. After claiming an entire TN village (with zero Muslims) including a 1500 yo temple (built pre-Islam), then an entire village in Bihar (95% Hindus), Kerala Christians are being tortured...village of 600 Christian families in Kochi, with proper documents, asked to vacate. No such law for any other religion. They can claim our house tomorrow and onus will be on us to disprove it in front of waqf tribunal, until then their property. Also no appeal can be made against the tribunal's decision in any court. What is this BS? 

 

 

I'm afraid none of the part in bold is true.

 

The Waqf board of each state institutes a tribunal for disputes. If one is unhappy with the decision of the said tribunal, one can directly approach the high court.

No one can claim your house. Each State Waqf board has to release a list every year of the Auqafs in the said state. The list is then compared to the list from the previous years, and the onus is on the Waqf board to explain additions or deletions.

 

 

diga Grand Master

diga

Posted
Posted

@Mariyam... the point is about unilateral claim of any property, like they did with a village in TN

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/tamil-nadu/video/tiruchendurai-village-in-tamil-nadu-fights-waqf-board-claim-on-their-land-chola-era-temple-2588051-2024-08-26

 

How can you explain this? The onus is on Waqf to go to the country's court if they are the owners of the land. They should not bypass legal system of India. Why should one approach Waqf for a resolution when the court should have that power? Street power in Islam will bring this country to chaos if its not already so 

Mariyam Grand Master

Mariyam

Posted
Posted
45 minutes ago, diga said:

@Mariyam... the point is about unilateral claim of any property, like they did with a village in TN

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/tamil-nadu/video/tiruchendurai-village-in-tamil-nadu-fights-waqf-board-claim-on-their-land-chola-era-temple-2588051-2024-08-26

 

How can you explain this? The onus is on Waqf to go to the country's court if they are the owners of the land. They should not bypass legal system of India. Why should one approach Waqf for a resolution when the court should have that power? Street power in Islam will bring this country to chaos if its not already so 

Bypass the legal system of India? Waqf *is* the constitutionally directed legal system.

As I mentioned earlier, the court has an over riding power on the decisions of a Waqf tribunal.

 

The case you mentioned is a misuse of the Waqf Act. Any high court/Waqf tribunal will quash the claim. 
Is fraudulent usage of a law grounds for its abrogation? 
 

You have some serious misgivings about the Waqf board. It is not a land shark but a statutory body whose primary objective is the upkeep of the various auqafs in a state. 

diga Grand Master

diga

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, Mariyam said:

Bypass the legal system of India? Waqf *is* the constitutionally directed legal system.

As I mentioned earlier, the court has an over riding power on the decisions of a Waqf tribunal.

 

The case you mentioned is a misuse of the Waqf Act. Any high court/Waqf tribunal will quash the claim. 
Is fraudulent usage of a law grounds for its abrogation? 
 

You have some serious misgivings about the Waqf board. It is not a land shark but a statutory body whose primary objective is the upkeep of the various auqafs in a state. 

Yes I do have serious misgivings about a religious body .... Waqf should approach the courts for land rather than the other way.  Unnecessary complication of the legal system because of it.  Without the case, I doubt a common Indian would have any awareness about it

 

Mariyam Grand Master

Mariyam

Posted
Posted
12 minutes ago, diga said:

Yes I do have serious misgivings about a religious body .... Waqf should approach the courts for land rather than the other way.  Unnecessary complication of the legal system because of it.  Without the case, I doubt a common Indian would have any awareness about it

 

Please refer to my initial post to @Gollum in this thread. 
 

Waqf has to send lists every year to the Tribunal. The lists are tallied with pre partition revenue records of properties. If there is any discrepancy in property deed/ history as an Auqaf the tribunal doesn’t (generally) pass the property as a Waqf. Recourse is available for those dissatisfied through the HC always. 
 

What the amendment is saying is that there should be some independent judges not associated with the Waqf board on the tribunal. That is fair, IMO. 

Muloghonto Grand Master

Muloghonto

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Mariyam said:

Please refer to my initial post to @Gollum in this thread. 
 

Waqf has to send lists every year to the Tribunal. The lists are tallied with pre partition revenue records of properties. If there is any discrepancy in property deed/ history as an Auqaf the tribunal doesn’t (generally) pass the property as a Waqf. Recourse is available for those dissatisfied through the HC always. 
 

What the amendment is saying is that there should be some independent judges not associated with the Waqf board on the tribunal. That is fair, IMO. 

There should be no Waqf board, period. 

There is no rationale except religious imperialism, to have a unified religiously regulated inheritance law. 

Mariyam Grand Master

Mariyam

Posted
Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

There should be no Waqf board, period. 

There is no rationale except religious imperialism, to have a unified religiously regulated inheritance law. 

You are attributing to malicious intent what is incompetence (mainly on part of the Waqf Board). Yes there are cases of people misusing the Waqf Act, but it’s mainly a litany of mismanagement which has seen multiple properties nation wide in a poor state.
 

Why shouldn’t there be a body to take care of religious places? Can’t hand them over to the ASI as many of the Auqafs are in active use. 

 Can’t follow your line of reasoning here. 

Who then, in your opinion, should take care of the multitude of Auqafs across the nation? I think the current set up is fair. If Muslims value these structures, they donate to the specific Waqf charities for their upkeep. The State only provides meagre funding. 
Most of these properties are in the red financially. Why add financial burden to the State?

Edited by Mariyam
Muloghonto Grand Master

Muloghonto

Posted
Posted
51 minutes ago, Mariyam said:

You are attributing to malicious intent what is incompetence (mainly on part of the Waqf Board). Yes there are cases of people misusing the Waqf Act, but it’s mainly a litany of mismanagement which has seen multiple properties nation wide in a poor state.
 

Why shouldn’t there be a body to take care of religious places? Can’t hand them over to the ASI as many of the Auqafs are in active use. 

 Can’t follow your line of reasoning here. 

Who then, in your opinion, should take care of the multitude of Auqafs across the nation? I think the current set up is fair. If Muslims value these structures, they donate to the specific Waqf charities for their upkeep. The State only provides meagre funding. 
Most of these properties are in the red financially. Why add financial burden to the State?


No, i am attributing malicious intent to the concept of waqf board, aka religiously dictated property inheritance protocol that runs parallel to a common law system for one particular religion. 

if there is a body that takes care of religious places, sure, but the INHERITANCE and actual legal property strictures applicable should *NOT* be religious. That is what i have a beef with. 
Who should take care of Auqafs ? Simple - anyone not applying Islamic law and Islamic legal inheritance code to said property. 

There should be no such entity as 'unified church property'.  period. Who will upkeep said structures ? combination of fund-raisers for any local heritage property + govt funding and what that doesn't cover, goes to the way of the dust. 

 

The simple fact is, by pure acerage, no non-state actor in my view should be permitted to own so much land, period and yes, i mean that not just for waqf board but also church property that is direct vatican property. Whatever the legal mechanisms need to be deployed, must be done to break the Waqf board into smaller entities as the most obvious compromise scenario. 

 

coffee_rules Grand Master

coffee_rules

Posted
Posted
8 hours ago, Mariyam said:

Please refer to my initial post to @Gollum in this thread. 
 

Waqf has to send lists every year to the Tribunal. The lists are tallied with pre partition revenue records of properties. If there is any discrepancy in property deed/ history as an Auqaf the tribunal doesn’t (generally) pass the property as a Waqf. Recourse is available for those dissatisfied through the HC always. 
 

What the amendment is saying is that there should be some independent judges not associated with the Waqf board on the tribunal. That is fair, IMO. 

 

Property of those affected by partition should have been given to Hindus who came from across the border. While properties of Hindus in Pakistan was illegally and forcibly occupied by Pakistani Muslims, Gnadhi sat on a satyagraha to deny Hindus any access to those properties. 

 

Another issue with Waqf act is that if any property is in dispute and with the Tribunal, the owner cannot sell his property. The disputes can take decades to settle while the land/property is a dead investement. HCs and SCs should override any Waqf disputed property under fast-track courts. The Waqf act of 1991 gave them extra-judicial powers. You say they are not funded well, I think GoI/taxpayers pay for the auditors and surveyors .

Mariyam Grand Master

Mariyam

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

 

Property of those affected by partition should have been given to Hindus who came from across the border. While properties of Hindus in Pakistan was illegally and forcibly occupied by Pakistani Muslims, Gnadhi sat on a satyagraha to deny Hindus any access to those properties. 

 

Another issue with Waqf act is that if any property is in dispute and with the Tribunal, the owner cannot sell his property. The disputes can take decades to settle while the land/property is a dead investement. HCs and SCs should override any Waqf disputed property under fast-track courts. The Waqf act of 1991 gave them extra-judicial powers. You say they are not funded well, I think GoI/taxpayers pay for the auditors and surveyors .

Coffee sahab, residential/commercial properties not being given to Hindus affected by the partition doesn't have much to do with the Waqf. Most of it is *not* under the ambit of the Waqf.

 

An owner cannot sell a property under dispute. Period. This has nothing to do with being a Waqf property.

 

HCs can and do over turn the decision of the State Waqf tribunal. 

 

 

diga Grand Master

diga

Posted
Posted
12 hours ago, Mariyam said:

Coffee sahab, residential/commercial properties not being given to Hindus affected by the partition doesn't have much to do with the Waqf. Most of it is *not* under the ambit of the Waqf.

 

An owner cannot sell a property under dispute. Period. This has nothing to do with being a Waqf property.

 

HCs can and do over turn the decision of the State Waqf tribunal. 

 

 

Only HCs? why not normal district courts 

rangeelaraja Grand Master

rangeelaraja

Posted
Posted (edited)

One of my biggest disappointments with the BJP/NDA govt is that they have not taken any steps to completely abolish Waqf board.

 

We should never have special laws for one particular religion - in a secular Hindu majority country. Why is it that every single time only one religion seeks exceptions ? Do we see similar land mafias in the name of religion by Hindus, Sikhs, Jains or Christians ?

 

I am hoping that Uniform Civil code and the abolishment of the Waqf board will come at the same time.  

 

Here is the Waqf Act of 1995 that gave sweeping powers to the Waqf board.

 

https://www.indiacode.nic.in/bitstream/123456789/18918/1/the_waqf_act_1995.pdf

 

Section 40 

Quote

40. Decision if a property is 1 [waqf] property.—(1) The Board may itself collect information regarding any property which it has reason to believe to be 1 [waqf] property and if any question arises whether a particular property is 1 [waqf] property or not or whether a 1 [waqf] is a Sunni 1 [waqf] or a Shia 1 [waqf], it may, after making such inquiry as it may deem fit, decide the question. (2) The decision of the Board on a question under sub-section (1) shall, unless revoked or modified by the Tribunal, be final

 

Section 85

 

Quote

85. Bar of jurisdiction of civil courts.—No suit or other legal proceeding shall lie in any 2 [civil court, revenue court and any other authority] in respect of any dispute, question or other matter relating to any 1 [waqf], 1 [waqf] property or other matter which is required by or under this Act to be determined by a Tribunal.

 

 

 

Edited by rangeelaraja
rangeelaraja Grand Master

rangeelaraja

Posted
Posted (edited)

Every Waqf acquisition of land or property is followed by creation of an ecosystem in the locality of the property - be it halal only food shops,  slaughter houses etc...that make it untenable for any other community to live. And ghettos follow.  

 

I have personally seen this in Bandra, Mumbai where at one point the Jain community owned massive amounts of premium land pre-independence

 

At some point a Jama Masjid opened right outside Bandra Station ( West ) ....and the ghetto ecosystem perpetuated. Muslim owned Slaughter houses opened mischeiviously close to very old Jain mandirs, and the Jain community gradually left the place. 

 

Its been a long time since I left India, but I still remember from my college days - anyone from Mumbai - just take a stroll in a 1 km radius from Bandra West station - you will struggle to find a single Hindu shop / business establishment. A classic minority ghetto in what is supposed to be a very elite suburb of Mumbai.

 

These people simply cannot coexist with others - we see it UK, we see it in mainland Europe, and closer to home  ( where everyone in  the subcontinent has the same DNA )  - what is being done to Hindus in Bangladesh 

-how Karachi that had roughly 40 % Hindus has less than 2 % Hindus now. 

- what happened to Kashmiri Pandits 

- West Bengal has become a mini Bangladesh 

- The current state of Kerala....

 

If we don't wake up and act we will permanently lose our great country and the most glorious civilization well within a century

( because of farce that is Indian democracy, which provides franchise to a Minority that puts its foreign religion above India ) 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by rangeelaraja
BacktoCricaddict Grand Master

BacktoCricaddict

Posted
Posted

Religion must and forever be a private issue. Governments should have no influence over religious bodies, and conversely, Religious bodies should have no influence over government.  This applies to Devasthanams, Waqf, Devaswoms. etc. etc.

 

 

 

 

diga Grand Master

diga

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

Religion must and forever be a private issue. Governments should have no influence over religious bodies, and conversely, Religious bodies should have no influence over government.  This applies to Devasthanams, Waqf, Devaswoms. etc. etc.

Agree.. but can we first undo the powers vested in waqf board by Congress govt?

Muloghonto Grand Master

Muloghonto

Posted
Posted
On 10/12/2024 at 6:31 AM, BacktoCricaddict said:

Religion must and forever be a private issue. Governments should have no influence over religious bodies, and conversely, Religious bodies should have no influence over government.  This applies to Devasthanams, Waqf, Devaswoms. etc. etc.

 

 

 

 

No.

This is yet again, idiotic ideological western liberal/leftist nonsense of 'all religions are same same'. Religions that have no history of mass religion sponsored violence can influence government and society.Religions that have,should be exterminated.Its just that simple.
'All religions are out of govt'  is as assinine as saying 'all economics theories are out of govt'. 

 

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