We need to play an extra spinner (Varun C) against Aus or SA in knockouts

[Ultimate_Game]

Folks, it's clear Shami is not fully fit, and even if he is he's a shadow of his former self. And on the Dubai pitch playing a pacer may not be most effective against Aus or SA. I think instead of playing a half fit Shami or Arshdeep, let's take a leaf out of our 2011 WC QF game against Aus and play an extra spinner and open with him. In 2011 we played Ashwin as an extra spinner and he opened against Aus. The move was successful and Aussies couldn't force the pace in PP overs.

 

Similarly if we go against Head and Short, or against Rickleton, they're more likely to struggle against spinners, especially in Dubai. They'll be playing at Dubai after playing on true batting pitches in Pak and a slowish pitch with spinners like Varun C opening the bowling is more likely to give them trouble. I don't think we need more than Harshit and Pandya as pace options. Against sub-continental teams it makes sense to go with pace but against SENA teams, spin is the way to go at Dubai.

 

Hope we don't make the same mistake we did in 2023 WC where we played on a slow pitch but instead of bringing in Ashwin we played Siraj and lost the match.

[Lord]

nah 3 pace options are minimum 

 

Hardik is neither a new ball bowler nor a death bowler

 

there is enough for pacers in Dubai. Hardik choked Pak and Harshit also bounced them in the end. 

 

Arshdeep should replace Shami due to fitness. Even hes tall and can use bounce. 

[Ultimate_Game]

4 minutes ago, Lord said:

nah 3 pace options are minimum 

 

Hardik is neither a new ball bowler nor a death bowler

 

there is enough for pacers in Dubai. Hardik choked Pak and Harshit also bounced them in the end. 

 

Arshdeep should replace Shami due to fitness. Even hes tall and can use bounce. 

 

Pandya choked Pak batters. Wouldn't have been able to do that against SENA ones. Against Asian teams it makes sense to go with 3 or even 4 pace options but not against SENA. Likes of Short and Rickleton don't have any game against spinners and look like fish out of water.

 

Who is more likely to trouble likes of Short, Rickleton, Head and majority of AUS & SA batters (barring Klassen)? Spinners are more likely to keep them in their shell especially in Dubai where ball doesn't really come on  the the bat. Look at the way Axar, Kuldeep, Jadeja, Abrar and B'desh spinners have bowled so far. And all these matches were with sub-continent teams who're better at playing spin than the SENA ones and still spinners were way more effective. Against Aus and SA they're gonna be even more effective especially when Rickleton and Short have no experience or pedigree in facing spinners.

[coffee_rules]

9 minutes ago, Lord said:

nah 3 pace options are minimum 

 

Hardik is neither a new ball bowler nor a death bowler

 

there is enough for pacers in Dubai. Hardik choked Pak and Harshit also bounced them in the end. 

 

Arshdeep should replace Shami due to fitness. Even hes tall and can use bounce. 

Pak batting is no measure to guage the quality of pace attack. They are poor even against Zim pace.

[Lord]

6 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said:

 

Pandya choked Pak batters. Wouldn't have been able to do that against SENA ones. Against Asian teams it makes sense to go with 3 or even 4 pace options but not against SENA. Likes of Short and Rickleton don't have any game against spinners and look like fish out of water.

 

Who is more likely to trouble likes of Short, Rickleton, Head and majority of AUS & SA batters (barring Klassen)? Spinners are more likely to keep them in their shell especially in Dubai where ball doesn't really come on  the the bat. Look at the way Axar, Kuldeep, Jadeja, Abrar and B'desh spinners have bowled so far. And all these matches were with sub-continent teams who're better at playing spin than the SENA ones and still spinners were way more effective. Against Aus and SA they're gonna be even more effective especially when Rickleton and Short have no experience or pedigree in facing spinners.

 

We already have 3 spinners for that. Varun can replace Kuldeep if reqd.

 

But going with one frontline pacer is recipe foe disaster in death overs. 

[Ultimate_Game]

1 minute ago, Lord said:

 

We already have 3 spinners for that. Varun can replace Kuldeep if reqd.

 

But going with one frontline pacer is recipe foe disaster in death overs. 

 

Need Varun C to bowl in the PP. None of Kuldeep, Jadeja or Axar can bowl in PP. None of our pacers are gonna trouble Aussies or SA that much here, and Harshit & Pandya are enough for a change of pace. Majority of overs 35 or so have to be bowled by spinners with Harshit and Pandya combining for around 15 at max.

 

Horses for courses time in Dubai and let's not repeat the 2023 WC mistake by playing 3 pacers just for the sake of it even though the pitch doesn't warrant it. We've to factor in this Aus and SA batting lineup. Barring Klassen there's no batters on either side who can play spin effectively but they'll murder pace, especially Aussies.

[Lord]

16 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said:

 

Need Varun C to bowl in the PP. None of Kuldeep, Jadeja or Axar can bowl in PP. None of our pacers are gonna trouble Aussies or SA that much here, and Harshit & Pandya are enough for a change of pace. Majority of overs 35 or so have to be bowled by spinners with Harshit and Pandya combining for around 15 at max.

 

Horses for courses time in Dubai and let's not repeat the 2023 WC mistake by playing 3 pacers just for the sake of it even though the pitch doesn't warrant it. We've to factor in this Aus and SA batting lineup. Barring Klassen there's no batters on either side who can play spin effectively but they'll murder pace, especially Aussies.

 

Axar can and as I said Varun C can replace Kuldeep for that advantage if needed.

 

Even best spinners struggle in death overs. We need someone to nail yorkers there. 

[Ultimate_Game]

Just now, Lord said:

 

Axar can and as I said Varun C can replace Kuldeep for that advantage if needed.

 

Even best spinners struggle in death overs. We need someone to nail yorkers there. 

 

Axar is too flat and predictable, and Kuldeep is a mental midget who can't bowl in PP overs. Spin bowling in PP is a skill. Some have it and others don't. Ashwin knew how to bowl in PP. Washington Sundar is another bowlers who's good in PP. Same is the case with Varun C. Axar isn't that great while Jadeja and Kuldeep simply can't.

 

That's why Varun C is needed to open the bowling. Imagine him having a go against Short, Head or Rickleton on a slowish Dubai pitch. I can very well see them getting bowled or holing out trying to slog across the line.

[bowl_out]

That's probably the plan. I won't be surprised if they play Varun ahead of Kuldeep 

[Lord]

2 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said:

 

Axar is too flat and predictable, and Kuldeep is a mental midget who can't bowl in PP overs. Spin bowling in PP is a skill. Some have it and others don't. Ashwin knew how to bowl in PP. Washington Sundar is another bowlers who's good in PP. Same is the case with Varun C. Axar isn't that great while Jadeja and Kuldeep simply can't.

 

That's why Varun C is needed to open the bowling. Imagine him having a go against Short, Head or Rickleton on a slowish Dubai pitch. I can very well see them getting bowled or holing out trying to slog across the line.

 

So Varun C replaces Kuldeep and bowls in PP

 

 

[Ultimate_Game]

7 minutes ago, bowl_out said:

That's probably the plan. I won't be surprised if they play Varun ahead of Kuldeep 

 

I would play them both. Aussies will struggle reading Kuldeep. Let both Varun C and Kuldeep play. Dubai is the venue to make the most of our spin advantage. Aus only has Zampa and SA has Maharaj. Rest of their spin is part timers in Head, Maxwell, Markaram etc.

 

I fear that if we go with 3 pacers, Aus and SA can hammer them in PP and get a huge head start and it'll be difficult to claw back in the game. Let's play to our strength and go with spinners.

 

Let's channel our inner SL and go at them with our spinners. We picked Varun C and Kuldeep in the squad. If you don't play them against Aus and SA on this slow Dubai pitch, when will you do it?

[Ultimate_Game]

10 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

So Varun C replaces Kuldeep and bowls in PP

 

 

 

Naah, need Kuldeep as well in the middle overs. Axar and especially Jadeja are too predictable with Jadeja having regressed. Pacers won't and shouldn't be bowling 30 overs in Dubaiso why have 3? One of Harshit or Arshdeep along with Pandya is good enough. Spin is the way to go here especially that matches have already been played here and pitches would be even slower.

[Lord]

1 minute ago, Ultimate_Game said:

 

Naah, need Kuldeep as well in the middle overs. Axar and especially Jadeja are too predictable with Jadeja having regressed. Pacers won't and shouldn't be bowling 30 overs in Dubaiso why have 3? One of Harshit or Arshdeep along with Pandya is good enough. Spin is the way to go here especially that matches have already been played here and pitches would be even slower.

 

Pacers are needed to bowl at death. Min 20 overs will be bowled by pace. Hardik can only bowl in middle.

 

4 spinners are almost never needed in an ODI. Its not a rank turner. There is enough for pacers too.

 

So one pacer starts with Varun with new ball. Then Hardik and other pacer with spinners in middle overs. Then both frontline pacers in the death overs. 

 

That also is assuming everything goes to plan. Which never happens in semis. 

 

 

[Ultimate_Game]

7 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

Pacers are needed to bowl at death. Min 20 overs will be bowled by pace. Hardik can only bowl in middle.

 

4 spinners are almost never needed in an ODI. Its not a rank turner. There is enough for pacers too.

 

So one pacer starts with Varun with new ball. Then Hardik and other pacer with spinners in middle overs. Then both frontline pacers in the death overs. 

 

That also is assuming everything goes to plan. Which never happens in semis. 

 

 

 

I would bowl Varun C in PP, and Varun C and Kuldeep at the death along with Harshit. Against SA and Aus, and on the slow Dubai pitch you don't need pacers to bowl at the death. Let them try to slog Varun C with fielders on the boundary. This is where Varun's IPL experience is gonna come in handy and he's more effective when batters go after him.

 

I doubt majority of SA and Aus batters can read Varun and I want to see them try and hoick him without reading him properly. He's in form and deserves a go here along with Kuldeep.

[Lord]

14 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said:

 

I would bowl Varun C in PP, and Varun C and Kuldeep at the death along with Harshit. Against SA and Aus, and on the slow Dubai pitch you don't need pacers to bowl at the death. Let them try to slog Varun C with fielders on the boundary. This is where Varun's IPL experience is gonna come in handy and he's more effective when batters go after him.

 

I doubt majority of SA and Aus batters can read Varun and I want to see them try and hoick him without reading him properly. He's in form and deserves a go here along with Kuldeep.

 

ODI is different from T20. We're not sure Varun is even to bowl 10 overs and field for 50 overs. After his debut game he got injured I think. 

 

Any spinner will be lined up in death overs. Variations don't matter then as they are just look to power the delivery. There is not variation of length a spinner can do unlike pacer

[Vk1]

Agree. However, we should drop Jadeja, pick varun and if we bat first aim for par score. TM always gives the excuse of having that extra allrounder batsman who is not that useful if the replacement is going to make the bowling much more strong. Jadeja's bowling average against Aussies - 53

Edited February 28, 2025 by Vk1

[Ultimate_Game]

8 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

ODI is different from T20. We're not sure Varun is even to bowl 10 overs and field for 50 overs. After his debut game he got injured I think. 

 

Any spinner will be lined up in death overs. Variations don't matter then as they are just look to power the delivery. There is not variation of length a spinner can do unlike pacer

 

You gotta be brave and take calculated risks occasionally. You don't win tourneys by being extra cautious and safe. Play 3 seamers and then watch Head and Short or Rickleton blaze away. I would rather risk a decision with a big upside than do what we'd done all along.

 

This is one area where Indian cricket lags. They're always extra cautious and too conservative. It took them nearly a decade to understand that 5 batters and 5 bowlers don't win you tourneys and that you need multi-dimensional cricketers and batting depth. We've always veered on the safe side with team selections as well.

 

I'm more than certain we would've lost the 2011 WC QF to Aus if we had opened with pacers at both ends. Ashwin's PP spell is what kept Aus to a middling total. Rohit had the same chance in 2023 WC Final and he failed going with tried and tested approach. I would pull all stops and back our strength (spin) here.

 

And if you didn't have faith in Varun C to play through an ODI why select him in the first place? Back your players and play to your strengths.

[Frustrated]

We already hv 3 tailenders in our playing11.  (Kuldeep and 2 frontline pacers).  Adding Varun C would mean 4 tailenders.  Very thin batting lineup (plus RoKo are finished).  Our biggest concern is that Kuldeep's batting ability never improved.  (Though he has been playing intl cricket for 7 yrs).  

[rkt.india]

Extra spinner already playing in Kuldeep Yadav. Two seamers are must. Can't play with just one pacer. 

[PSB_Zone]

Varun c can play in place of Jadega only

Arshdeep can play if shami has niggle