Hafeez : 90's team won nothing for Pakistan

[deathmonger]

2 hours ago, Gollum said:

I won't name players, they come last. Talent pehle bhi tha, aaj bhi hai. But it is the system and organization that creates champion teams. 

 

In no particular order:

 

Naveen Patnaik, Odisha government....injected lots of funds to the sport, world class facilities, high performance centre, stadiums in the state (some former Maoist strongholds are now hockey hotspots). In some form or the other they have been backing Indian hockey since early 2010s when no one else stepped up (Beijing non-qualification, constant WC/CWG/AG humiliations, London last place finish etc.). If hockey players hold Naveen babu in such high regard and called him from the team bus after winning Paris bronze, there is a reason...many of them have also settled in Odisha. Heck Odisha was the only state which gave them a grand reception on returning  home, and announced cash rewards for all players, not just those from their state.....Punjab, Haryana, Delhi, Kerala etc. rewarded only their state players. 

 

Hockey India, probably the best run sporting organization in the country, more emphasis on merit and not afraid to hire foreign experts to topmost positions (Elena Norman, a young Aussie lady was Hockey India CEO for 10+ years)...also remember Dilip Tirkey is the top boss now and he runs the show, not a politician, bureaucrat or rubber stamp. 

 

Good hirings of coaches from mid 2010s, stability as well to them unlike the constant hiring and firing before.....Oltmans, Sjoerd Marijne, Harendra Singh, Graham Reid, now Fulton. And event to event planning, goals set clear....even before Paris, Fulton was told he would get time till the 26 WC to execute his vision. 

 

Increased emphasis on fitness, closed the gap with goras there

 

HI forcing good changes in FIH, like from 2 halves to 4 quarters, advantage India who didn't have the endurance earlier to play 35 minute halves. But 4 quarters of 15 minutes each, and we can match the tempo of the goras better. Contrast this to lethargic BCCI who can't even shift WTC F venue.

 

Selflessness in game play now......earlier our players would hog the ball and look to score themselves. Akashdeep was a terrific striker and potential superstar but got benched around 2020 because he was too selfish, sidelined mostly since then and younger guns have shown that fitting into team structure and philosophy is more important than individual brilliance. Sardara was the last selfish superstar of Indian hockey. Now thankfully we have also moved on from the superstar and saviour syndrome. 

 

Timely retirement and transition of players. Rupinder Pal Singh was brilliant in Tokyo with his PCs but was forced to retire after that, and Harmanpreet was groomed, now Harman is a game changer and proper leader. Rupinder was only 30-31 then but not the fastest, and had recurring knee issues because of his height. Birendra Lakra too retired, and also  SV Sunil who was our best winger, due to age reasons. Sreejesh himself retired after Paris, more such players weren't picked for ACT last year because planning has started for the WC. This kind of planning and having backups is unheard of in cricket. Even when Sreejesh retired, Krishan Pathak had enough experience and was playing in Asia Cup 22, ACT 23....not afraid to send depleted squads to build bench strength even if it results in embarrassment in these small tournaments. 

 

Our hockey IQ isn't that good, our players can't think that well on their feet. That is one area which is in our control and must improve, that is our next step. Can't do much about umpiring, so let us focus on the controllables. 

Are top global players playing in HIL?

[AKane]

They won bilaterals vs India - esp in Sharjah - but in world cups always lost against India. Hafeez should have said that to Shoaibs face. Shoaib was there and he laid eggs in 1999 and 2003.

 

Shoaib was the worst pacer in 1999 for Pak and again in 2003 when they played India in WC.

 

Shaoib 1/54  with Wasim 2/27, Azar  Mahmood 1/34 and Razzaq 1/40 in 1999 - only Saqlain was worse than Shoaib

Shoaib 1/72  with Wasim 0/54, Waqar 2/71 and Razzaq 0/36 in 2003 - arguably Waqar as bad as Shoaib.

[AKane]

2 minutes ago, karamchand said:

Waqar ko 2003 WC ne bahut rulaya. 

Pehle Symmonds ne mast pela fir Sehwag Tendulkar ne aar paar kar diya.

Before that 1996 and Ajay Jadeja......

[rollingstoned]

5 hours ago, Gollum said:

Most of the beatdowns happened in India, if you check the H2H in that period. One of my earliest memories was a tri-series in 99-00 in India and Pak beat us every single time by huge margins including the final. In 1999-00 also we lost some 8-9 games against them (they were simply better, nothing suspicious), winning just 1, hence even in 2000s they had superior H2H due to 2000 results. 

 

In cricket we became better than them around 2002-03, in hockey sometime in late 2000s to early 2010s. Gulf in respective sports widened significantly post 2011 WC, 2014 Asian Games respectively. 

I remember this series, only Sadagoppan ramesh came out of that series with any credit. He was the only one who didn't seem afraid of Akhtar's pace at that time.

[Gollum]

1 hour ago, deathmonger said:

Are top global players playing in HIL?

Yes, many of them.

[deathmonger]

7 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Yes, many of them.

nice. hopefully in a decade we win the world cup and the olympic gold.

[Gollum]

11 minutes ago, deathmonger said:

nice. hopefully in a decade we win the world cup and the olympic gold.

Yup looking forward to that. I want an Olympic gold, 13 medals including 8 golds is a tremendous legacy, our greatest sporting record by a gazillion light years (sorry Indian cricket team, never coming close to that). Only US basketball team has a better legacy in team sports, that is elite company. 

 

We were good enough to win gold last year, just judging by the level of the final, I never had that feeling before. 

Edited March 6, 2025 by Gollum

[deathmonger]

5 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Yup looking forward to that. I want an Olympic gold, 13 medals including 8 golds is a tremendous legacy, our greatest sporting record by a gazillion light years (sorry Indian cricket team, never coming close to that). Only US basketball team has a better legacy in team sports, that is elite company. 

 

We were good enough to win gold last year, just judging by the level of the final, I never had that feeling before. 

yup. a little more investment in infra and player pool and we can be perpetual gold contenders.

[Gollum]

15 minutes ago, deathmonger said:

yup. a little more investment in infra and player pool and we can be perpetual gold contenders.

Positive results in hockey, wrestling, javelin feel sweeter for me (no disrespect to shooting, badminton etc.) just because of the physical (even body contact in former two) nature of those sports and the general image of our people being meek, weak, malnourished, unathletic types. In those sports we are competing with sporting powerhouses, hockey QF bracket in Paris looked like FIFA WC QF bracket (except India, Aus)....Ger vs Arg, Aus vs Neth, Ind vs GBR, Esp vs Bel, likewise in Tokyo. And if you have been to or seen USA from up close, you'll notice how integral wrestling and athletics are to every single school/uni over there, extend that to other developed countries as well, insane competition. 

 

Can add fast bowling as well to the list, happy to see so many 140+ bowlers emerge in last decade or so. I like classy batsmen, spinning wizards, swing maestros as well but they don't excite me as much as Bumrah/Shami making stumps cartwheel or Saha jumping horizontally like a cheetah to pluck a screamer off an Umesh 140 delivery. 

 

In wrestling also, what I have read is that our people have insane cardio conditioning and work ethic but lack in technique for modern freestyle scoring, can be easily corrected if we invest smartly and get in coaches from abroad at an early stage of a wrestler's development. In wrestling subreddits, I feel proud when they mention our kushti training in the same sentence as those of Dagestan and Iran. Our pehelwani/kushti culture is centuries old, and found patronage pan-India under different rulers. Probably the most Indian of all sports, and was part of our DNA much before Brits came. We had women kushti experts in Vijayanagara empire when women were hidden in dingy rooms in Europe....European travelers themselves have made note of that. 

Edited March 6, 2025 by Gollum

[Suhaan]

17 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Positive results in hockey, wrestling, javelin feel sweeter for me (no disrespect to shooting, badminton etc.) just because of the physical (even body contact in former two) nature of those sports and the general image of our people being meek, weak, malnourished, unathletic types. In those sports we are competing with sporting powerhouses, hockey QF bracket in Paris looked like FIFA WC QF bracket (except India, Aus)....Ger vs Arg, Aus vs Neth, Ind vs GBR, Esp vs Bel, likewise in Tokyo. And if you have been to or seen USA from up close, you'll notice how integral wrestling and athletics are to every single school/uni over there, extend that to other developed countries as well, insane competition. 

 

Can add fast bowling as well to the list, happy to see so many 140+ bowlers emerge in last decade or so. I like classy batsmen, spinning wizards, swing maestros as well but they don't excite me as much as Bumrah/Shami making stumps cartwheel or Saha jumping horizontally like a cheetah to pluck a screamer off an Umesh 140 delivery. 

 

In wrestling also, what I have read is that our people have insane cardio conditioning and work ethic but lack in technique for modern freestyle scoring, can be easily corrected if we invest smartly and get in coaches from abroad at an early stage of a wrestler's development. In wrestling subreddits, I feel proud when they mention our kushti training in the same sentence as those of Dagestan and Iran. Our pehelwani/kushti culture is centuries old, and found patronage pan-India under different rulers. Probably the most Indian of all sports, and was part of our DNA much before Brits came. We had women kushti experts in Vijayanagara empire when women were hidden in dingy rooms in Europe....European travelers themselves have made note of that. 

Such a good post ,that's more gollum like after "some"time

[G_B_]

Ok now the truth

 

The 90s pak team got 4 tournaments. 96 99 wc and 1998 and 2000 champions trophy. By 2002 the golden crop of players were passed it.

 

Arrival of t20 wc in 2007 onwards and wtc means there is 1 icc tournament per year.

 

 

Lets be honest and say wi 1970 to 1990 and aus 1998 to 2011 would be sitting on a lot more trophies.

 

 

 

 

[putrevus]

8 minutes ago, G_B_ said:

Ok now the truth

 

The 90s pak team got 4 tournaments. 96 99 wc and 1998 and 2000 champions trophy. By 2002 the golden crop of players were passed it.

 

Arrival of t20 wc in 2007 onwards and wtc means there is 1 icc tournament per year.

 

 

Lets be honest and say wi 1970 to 1990 and aus 1998 to 2011 would be sitting on a lot more trophies.

 

 

 

 

WI would be winning lot more. Australians not so much .I don't think they were winning any extra other than what they won from 1998 to 2011.

Edited March 6, 2025 by putrevus

[Ultimate_Game]

14 hours ago, Lone Wolf said:

All the wins they talk about against Ind were mostly from fixing days in Sharjah and Pak had a better team. When Ind became Miles better they stopped playing against Pak. That record would have been shattered

 

The game has changed and with advent of T20 leagues, ICC tourneys is what matters. Back in the day bilaterals used to matter but not anymore. Majority of teams don't even play their first XI in bilaterals anymore. If fixing H2H records is what matters, we would be playing WI every year to fix our record against them. But I don't think anyone cares.

 

What we care about and what really matters is ICC tourneys. Reaching 4 straight ICC tourney finals - WTC, ODI WC, WT20 and now CT - is what matters and is so special. What would you rather have? Some useless bilaterals or performances in ICC tourneys?

[Gollum]

Just now, Ultimate_Game said:

 

The game has changed and with advent of T20 leagues, ICC tourneys is what matters. Back in the day bilaterals used to matter but not anymore. Majority of teams don't even play their first XI in bilaterals anymore. If fixing H2H records is what matters, we would be playing WI every year to fix our record against them. But I don't think anyone cares.

 

What we care about and what really matters is ICC tourneys. Reaching 4 straight ICC tourney finals - WTC, ODI WC, WT20 and now CT - is what matters and is so special. What would you rather have? Some useless bilaterals or performances in ICC tourneys?

I only care about tests H2H, because nobody takes that format lightly, willingly. And very difficult to fluke wins there, over a period of 5 days, quality will prevail. 

[putrevus]

Even in tests you will one series wonders, Sadgoppan Ramesh falls under that category.He did okay against Pakistan but some people extrapolate it and make him into a great player who should have played lot more tests.

 

Scoring runs with new ball against those Pakistani teams were lot easier than scoring runs with old ball.

Edited March 6, 2025 by putrevus

[Ultimate_Game]

11 minutes ago, Gollum said:

I only care about tests H2H, because nobody takes that format lightly, willingly. And very difficult to fluke wins there, over a period of 5 days, quality will prevail. 

 

Yup, H2H for Tests and ICC tourneys for shorter formats.

[deathmonger]

I don't think we'll ever play tests with Pak ever again.

 

Tests will anyways become a big 3 thing again.

 

And only way bilaterals will resume is if relations improve.

 

What delusion that Pakistanis are under is that they have gotten used to periods of non-playing and then resuming like throughout history so they are surprised that this "resumption" hasn't come after 17 years.

 

Thing is the world has changed and the power differential is way different.

 

India doesn't need Pakistan anymore.

 

Any "peace" will have to be on India's terms.

[First class]

18 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

Is he working at a call center for US clients ?

Why such absurd timings ?

Due to fasting month, Ramazan. . Players were supposed to be fasting in day time .

[singhvivek141]

2 hours ago, First class said:

Due to fasting month, Ramazan. . Players were supposed to be fasting in day time .

That's weird though,

 

Fasting isnt mandatory during certain events like travelling, am I right ?

 

There is a concept of Hadiya as well, which offer compensatory Rozas, can it not be applied ?

 

 

[tapandrun]

8 hours ago, deathmonger said:

I don't think we'll ever play tests with Pak ever again.

 

Tests will anyways become a big 3 thing again.

 

And only way bilaterals will resume is if relations improve.

 

What delusion that Pakistanis are under is that they have gotten used to periods of non-playing and then resuming like throughout history so they are surprised that this "resumption" hasn't come after 17 years.

 

Thing is the world has changed and the power differential is way different.

 

India doesn't need Pakistan anymore.

 

Any "peace" will have to be on India's terms.

 

Ind and pak series happens only when it suites the gov. pak gov for intnl purpose and  ind for local.

If there is any series happens then boards would like to make mny so it will be 5 t20s and 3/5 odis.

 

pak would like to have a series but ind wont. Also the kind of mud slinging happened by media/ex-players in last few years ind board will try to avoid any series.

 

mud slinging :

• pak media said ind team will come to pak for no matter what and lot of fake claims were made
• Ind media kept claiming that Ind will not go for ct and there were fake/real news that the ct will move out to sa or somewhere else
• alot has been said in past few days by pak media about scheduling and other teams travelling to which pcb already knew about it.
• Pak media tried to suggest sky's catch was 6, think icc had to put tweets and videos to prove otherwise.
• claims of using chml, chips etc by ind board during wc-23 
• Ind umps and commentators not going to pak, not sure if there was any media covering matches in pak
• Pak ex-player making all kind of bizarre remarks and comments  against bcci/icc

 

think these are lot of reasons fr bcci to avoid any series and for pcb the team is not that strong and may get white washed so they will nt want any series till team get any better

 

Had it been some other times the kind of inning played by babar and rizwan would have raised question on them of corruption, but they know these players are not that good to question if they under played intentionally. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 7, 2025 by tapandrun