rangeelaraja Posted June 22 Posted June 22 India is the only country in the world which the 2 most powerful countries in the world don't want to see rise. They are rivals but on India there is a common objective. India is also the only country in the world that has land disputes and common borders with 2 N-armed countries -- if this isn't bad enough - they both collude proactively to hurt India. Also as rivals- both the top 2 powerful countries work against each other --except when it comes to abetting Pak to harm India. India is the only democracy in the world - where during war time the opposition to the ruling BJP dispensation has a track record of taking the side of the enemy and their propoganada and psy-ops. I don't think there is any other country on the planet where the opposition has a such a vicious track record as traitors. For such a large country with such large population- India neither has oil, nor natural gas nor previous metals to lean on. No other country in the world is so divided by caste, creed and religion. It may not be apparent now given the size and scale of India - but we face an existential battle.
MechEng Posted June 22 Posted June 22 There is no point wallowing in self pity. How one confronts the odds stacked against them and overcomes obstacles is what makes a champion. The big question here is - Are we patient and disciplined enough? Lord and randomGuy 1 1
randomGuy Posted June 22 Posted June 22 Luck factor 50% - 30% neighbours 20% climate change Apni Galti 50% - Air pollution, lack of civic sense, morality, corruption etc.
randomGuy Posted June 22 Posted June 22 I would request op to watch trasporttv shorts etc. on YouTube to see a glimpse of corruption by RTO and police. If you watch it for some time you may think corruption and no morality empathy is bigger issue than neighbours. But this and neighbours and a couple others, all are serious problems. Lord 1
randomGuy Posted June 22 Posted June 22 Police and RTO and all public facing staff should have bodycams to safeguard public from corruption and violence.
singhvivek141 Posted June 22 Posted June 22 (edited) I believe, we can control the variables to some extent. But its only coz we lack the self belief. 1. Oil is our Achilles heel, I am not sure what will happen with Andaman. But we have a strong ties with a nation like Russia...who has the resources, has decentish per capita...what they lack is workforce. We should never turn our back to them. 2. Hard hand to Pakistan is important, there is a saying that Pakjabis understand the language of hard hands...unlike Balochis or Pashtuns...these guys aren't hard fighters and will surrender the moment things go bad. 3. Growing economy is super important, and I seriously believe that future lies with ASEAN nations. The India-Vietnam road/rail corridor and Kaladan corridor in Myanmar is key for our economic acceleration. Once we grow militarily & economically, Chinese influence in these countries will reduce. 4. Use our oceans well, we neglected Lakshadweep A&N islands for decades...develop them both militarily and economically. Great Nicobar redevelopment is a massive step, building a township with heavy port and civil/military airport plus a maldives kinda touristic is better for India...same goes in Lakshadweep, where Minicoy can be our watchtower. Whoever controls the ocean, controls the world. If someone says lack of funds, take loan from IMF if needed. This is an investment for future returns, like we take Homeloans to buy/build a house....but develop these places both economically & militarily. Use IMF money to build economy, use our funds to build a strong military & coastguard. Edited June 22 by singhvivek141
Lone Wolf Posted June 22 Posted June 22 Lack of industrial might is the main reason we are where we are. Maratha's failure to do complete reconquista and not making allies out of Rajputs and Sikhs sealed India's fate in 18th century. We never had our own industrial revolution. English gave us a gift in the form of bureaucracy and babudom. This is a never ending cycle at the end of the day.
MechEng Posted June 22 Posted June 22 3 hours ago, Lone Wolf said: Lack of industrial might is the main reason we are where we are. Maratha's failure to do complete reconquista and not making allies out of Rajputs and Sikhs sealed India's fate in 18th century. We never had our own industrial revolution. English gave us a gift in the form of bureaucracy and babudom. This is a never ending cycle at the end of the day. Marathas would have done nothing, Indian mindset was never the same after Sultanate conquered the subcontinent. For majority of medieval era the Indian history was all about warfare and land acquisition, there was no room for innovation and advanced thought process. Marathas, Sikhs and Rajputs could not command half the influence what Mauryans could globally. putrevus 1
gattaca Posted June 22 Posted June 22 (edited) 1 hour ago, MechEng said: Marathas would have done nothing, Indian mindset was never the same after Sultanate conquered the subcontinent. For majority of medieval era the Indian history was all about warfare and land acquisition, there was no room for innovation and advanced thought process. Marathas, Sikhs and Rajputs could not command half the influence what Mauryans could globally. British innovated when there were multiple wars. Cheap labor is main problem. British innovated because of expensive labor and less population. Major issue was also engineering was poor and no effort was made by kings to improve. Mughals were happy to build monuments and pillage mostly. Indian kings were just surviving and fighting. Edited June 22 by gattaca
IndianRenegade Posted June 22 Posted June 22 No point blaming luck, many countries in our neighborhood although smaller started with nothing post colonialism. They buckeled up, put in the effort and changed, India also needs to do it. Only concern is just when India has realized it needs to industrialize using services as fuel, AI has come as a curve ball. India had its opportunities to solve the Pakistan Kashmir question in 1947 & probably in 71, we missed it. We effed up by being to accomadating to the chinese they took over tibet, now we are reaping the benifts of these actions. Its going to be bumby ride, but the polictial leadership needs to realize what is at stake & move the country forward.
gattaca Posted June 22 Posted June 22 (edited) 1 hour ago, IndianRenegade said: No point blaming luck, many countries in our neighborhood although smaller started with nothing post colonialism. They buckeled up, put in the effort and changed, India also needs to do it. Only concern is just when India has realized it needs to industrialize using services as fuel, AI has come as a curve ball. India had its opportunities to solve the Pakistan Kashmir question in 1947 & probably in 71, we missed it. We effed up by being to accomadating to the chinese they took over tibet, now we are reaping the benifts of these actions. Its going to be bumby ride, but the polictial leadership needs to realize what is at stake & move the country forward. Most of politicians don’t know much about AI. They can still catch up with AI. Japan has made considerable progress with models. Are we expecting govt or private sector to drive innovation? In U.S. most of it is private sector. China is other way. For democracies it should be private sector. People like pai were asking govt for funds whereas they fired Vishal sikka who wanted to invest in AI in 2013. All the software companies in India are body shops no vision. We don’t have any product companies. Edited June 22 by gattaca
Vancouver Posted June 22 Posted June 22 19 hours ago, rangeelaraja said: India is the only country in the world which the 2 most powerful countries in the world don't want to see rise. They are rivals but on India there is a common objective. India is also the only country in the world that has land disputes and common borders with 2 N-armed countries -- if this isn't bad enough - they both collude proactively to hurt India. Also as rivals- both the top 2 powerful countries work against each other --except when it comes to abetting Pak to harm India. India is the only democracy in the world - where during war time the opposition to the ruling BJP dispensation has a track record of taking the side of the enemy and their propoganada and psy-ops. I don't think there is any other country on the planet where the opposition has a such a vicious track record as traitors. For such a large country with such large population- India neither has oil, nor natural gas nor previous metals to lean on. No other country in the world is so divided by caste, creed and religion. It may not be apparent now given the size and scale of India - but we face an existential battle. You wouldn't have achieved the economic and diplomatic progress of the last 30 years if both superpowers genuinely shared a common objective of preventing India's rise. China has four nuclear-armed neighbours in India, Pakistan, Russia, and North Korea and that hasn't stopped its rise. Pakistan has two nuclear-armed neighbours in India and China, plus volatile neighbours like Afghanistan and Iran. By your own logic, if China and Pakistan colluding against India is evidence of a strategic alignment, then isn't the U.S. - India relationship simply a counterbalance to China's rise? Great powers forming partnerships to contain rivals is how geopolitics works. Would you be comfortable accepting the Mongoloid race as your masters, or are you only comfortable with Caucasian masters? Ironically, many of these so-called "traitors" were instrumental in securing the U.S.-India civil nuclear deal, one of the most consequential strategic agreements in modern Indian history. Opposition parties criticizing a government's conduct is not automatically equivalent to supporting the enemy. That's political rhetoric, not objective analysis. Demanding that Modi take a firmer stance is not the same as working for India's enemies. In every healthy democracy, governments are questioned, challenged and held accountable. Indian PM does not even hold a press conference. Look at how Meloni pushed back against Trump. As for caste and religious divisions, those are not some unavoidable curse unique to India. They persist because people choose to cling to them and politicians choose to exploit them. Societies are divided not by fate, but by the collective choices of their citizens. diga 1
Vancouver Posted June 22 Posted June 22 2 hours ago, kosingh said: Fortunately we are not Pakistan or Bangladesh. If your biggest source of comfort is that India is not Pakistan or Bangladesh then you're setting the bar embarrassingly low. Sounds more like a consolation prize than a vision.
MechEng Posted June 23 Posted June 23 8 hours ago, gattaca said: British innovated when there were multiple wars. Cheap labor is main problem. British innovated because of expensive labor and less population. Major issue was also engineering was poor and no effort was made by kings to improve. Mughals were happy to build monuments and pillage mostly. Indian kings were just surviving and fighting. I believe that while Europe was ravaged by wars during medieval era, their native cultures were probably never subjugated by foreign powers. Yes, the Ummayads ruled Spain, Portugal and Southern France but were driven out during crusades. India I believe went through horrors during Sultanate era. I cannot think of any other example where the local subjects were treated more brutally. Thats probably the reason why you never saw any innovation at that time from India because the natives spent all their energy in fighting for their dignity. That partly answers why Indians today lack civic sense - nobody considers this land their own and treat it with respect, everyone out there is fighting for survival to put themselves first. I think India had already peaked during Mauryan era and its difficult to replicate or better that.
MechEng Posted June 23 Posted June 23 1 hour ago, Vancouver said: You wouldn't have achieved the economic and diplomatic progress of the last 30 years if both superpowers genuinely shared a common objective of preventing India's rise. China has four nuclear-armed neighbours in India, Pakistan, Russia, and North Korea and that hasn't stopped its rise. Pakistan has two nuclear-armed neighbours in India and China, plus volatile neighbours like Afghanistan and Iran. By your own logic, if China and Pakistan colluding against India is evidence of a strategic alignment, then isn't the U.S. - India relationship simply a counterbalance to China's rise? Great powers forming partnerships to contain rivals is how geopolitics works. Would you be comfortable accepting the Mongoloid race as your masters, or are you only comfortable with Caucasian masters? Ironically, many of these so-called "traitors" were instrumental in securing the U.S.-India civil nuclear deal, one of the most consequential strategic agreements in modern Indian history. Opposition parties criticizing a government's conduct is not automatically equivalent to supporting the enemy. That's political rhetoric, not objective analysis. Demanding that Modi take a firmer stance is not the same as working for India's enemies. In every healthy democracy, governments are questioned, challenged and held accountable. Indian PM does not even hold a press conference. Look at how Meloni pushed back against Trump. As for caste and religious divisions, those are not some unavoidable curse unique to India. They persist because people choose to cling to them and politicians choose to exploit them. Societies are divided not by fate, but by the collective choices of their citizens. I agree with most of what you've said, but there are few considerations that you need to factor in. India - US strategic partnership cannot draw parallels with China - Pakistan partnership. It's because, one partnership here pushes the target country to better itself economically, while the other partnership threatens civilian safety of the target country. India's problem with Pak has always been terrorism, and China leverages that to its advantage. Besides, China is lucky to have mostly a homogenous population and almost no episodes where their natives were subjugated by foreign powers. China also went through invasions, but they never attracted the attention the same way as India did. The reason why Britain never tried to colonize China was because it was too big and the resources there were not as abundant as India. But yes, I agree that all ills India is facing now is due to their own making.
zen Posted June 23 Posted June 23 Once upon a time, the Swiss lived in one of the hardest parts of the world, but the people turned the country into a “paradise”. Once upon a time, India was known as a land of golden sparrow, but the people turned it into more or less a garbage dump. India is a land of many Gods. It is not only because it is a holy place but also Gods have had to come in multi forms to educate the population.
rangeelaraja Posted June 23 Author Posted June 23 3 hours ago, Vancouver said: You wouldn't have achieved the economic and diplomatic progress of the last 30 years if both superpowers genuinely shared a common objective of preventing India's rise. @Vancouver - Using AI with bad prompts ? All of your arguments are devoid of facts. China wasn't a super power 30 years back. But did everything it can to prop up Pak to bleed India - including arming Pak with lethal weapons, shielding Pak terrorists from UNSC sanctions and even N-enabling Pak. This objective has solidified as India has risen. Regime changes ( that are hostile to India ) in all of India's neighbourhood by the biggest superpower. Quote China has four nuclear-armed neighbours in India, Pakistan, Russia, and North Korea and that hasn't stopped its rise. Pakistan has two nuclear-armed neighbours in India and China, plus volatile neighbours like Afghanistan and Iran. Those nuclear armed countries are not actively coveting land under China's occupation. North Korea and Pakistan are strongest allies /benefactors / puppet states. India is defensive. So your argument makes zero sense. Quote By your own logic, if China and Pakistan colluding against India is evidence of a strategic alignment, then isn't the U.S. - India relationship simply a counterbalance to China's rise? Great powers forming partnerships to contain rivals is how geopolitics works. Would you be comfortable accepting the Mongoloid race as your masters, or are you only comfortable with Caucasian masters? Strategic alignment is not the same as waging a kinetic or hot war. Only a slave would be comfortable with a master. Since you bring it up. Are you a slave ? Quote Ironically, many of these so-called "traitors" were instrumental in securing the U.S.-India civil nuclear deal, one of the most consequential strategic agreements in modern Indian history. Opposition parties criticizing a government's conduct is not automatically equivalent to supporting the enemy. That's political rhetoric, not objective analysis. Demanding that Modi take a firmer stance is not the same as working for India's enemies. In every healthy democracy, governments are questioned, challenged and held accountable. Indian PM does not even hold a press conference. Look at how Meloni pushed back against Trump. As for caste and religious divisions, those are not some unavoidable curse unique to India. They persist because people choose to cling to them and politicians choose to exploit them. Societies are divided not by fate, but by the collective choices of their citizens. Mirroring the enemy state's narrative at the time of war is *ing TREASON. Zero arguments or ifs and buts about it.
rangeelaraja Posted June 23 Author Posted June 23 18 hours ago, MechEng said: There is no point wallowing in self pity. How one confronts the odds stacked against them and overcomes obstacles is what makes a champion. The big question here is - Are we patient and disciplined enough? Are you hallucinating ? Stating facts is not wallowing in self pity. What I stated are outright facts. No other country has the great "privileges" that I called out in the OP.
rangeelaraja Posted June 23 Author Posted June 23 Years of colonization has totally messed up the Indian psyche - that inferiority complex. It will atleast 1 more generation for India to come out of that. A very well known and regarded neutral Chinese scholar ( can't seem to re-collect the name ) ....was once asked what the Chinese think tanks and strategists think about India. --- his response was : China recognizes India has a great civilization that is superior to China. But they have contempt for modern India. They feel India is everything that China should never be. And they feel it strongly. The Chinese leadership since the time of Deng Xiaoping have always felt that the only way to shrug of colonialism and prevent it from happening again is to outcompete and beat the west at their own game. This shows in how they have built their own systems for everything. Used the carrot of cheap labour to become the manufacturing hub and now nobody can compete with them. India on the other hand has been merely content riding on West's tail in technology, systems, and form of governance ( including democracy ) We just don't have the ambition, drive and aspiration to dominate and be world beaters. Look at the at the top 10 richest Indians vs. Chinese. Indians are mostly dynasties in legacy old school businesses that hardly have a footprint outside India. Chinese are global tech giants -- that outcompete the Western companies.
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