coffee_rules Posted July 27 Posted July 27 It really happened during 1989 MAndal protests, since then savarnas are minorities in mainstream politics. They have fallen back on private sector. still, there are educated Indians and ICFers here that show some data that GC is represented in govt sector more. The reason is cutoff for reservation category goes down each year due to politics and they are still not able to fill out positions. NFS is the stamp set for such candidates - Not Found Suitable. EWS and Non-creamy layer reservation is the way to go Lord 1
Trichromatic Posted July 27 Posted July 27 1 hour ago, coffee_rules said: It really happened during 1989 MAndal protests, since then savarnas are minorities in mainstream politics. They have fallen back on private sector. still, there are educated Indians and ICFers here that show some data that GC is represented in govt sector more. The reason is cutoff for reservation category goes down each year due to politics and they are still not able to fill out positions. NFS is the stamp set for such candidates - Not Found Suitable. EWS and Non-creamy layer reservation is the way to go Why not make abolish caste system and make it illegal?
coffee_rules Posted July 27 Posted July 27 33 minutes ago, Trichromatic said: Why not make abolish caste system and make it illegal? Yes, it can be abolished constitutionally but it’ll never be eradicated, politically and socially. Unless you’re living in utopia, in India politically, you cannot get rid of reservations in our lifetime. Caste is preserved, politically not other way around.
singhvivek141 Posted July 27 Posted July 27 57 minutes ago, Trichromatic said: Why not make abolish caste system and make it illegal? Which govt will take that risk ? When its sure shot result is them going out of power. And the new govt may bring back the same caste policy, so net total zero. Unless India is under dictatorship or one party rule like China...these things will continue. Democracy is the root cause of evil in Indian society. coffee_rules 1
singhvivek141 Posted July 27 Posted July 27 On 7/26/2026 at 2:20 AM, Trichromatic said: What’s the basis of all these claims? How is brain drain related here? Best talent goes to US for masters. Even if they had options, very few opt for masters in India. How many top IIT B.Techs choose to do M. Tech in India? Most of them want to do private jobs after masters. Simple reasoning 1. GC has to pay full fees of exams, OBC maybe 60-70%, SC/ST maybe 10-15%. 2. GC has to score higher marks due to cutoff and competition, SC/ST at times have zero or negative mark as cutoff. 3. After getting the admission to college, GC has to pay again 100% of their fees, others get scholarship and as much as 100% of their tution fees refunded. 4. Same happens once they complete college and get a job in public sector. GC has to wait for promotions despite being more capable due to the learnings he went through in stage 1-2-3. Reserved class continues to get quota in promotions, no incentive to improve. 5. Those GC kids who dont get public sector jobs, they start working in pvt sector. As pvt sector is usually high risk high reward..they get the fruit of their hard work instead of being blocked by a quota. This motivates them. 6. New opportunities come up for foreign settlement, GC students, usually due to the stages they have went through in their early life are more prepared to bend their back for extra reward (in this case more money). For most reserved students, since their foundation was hollow from the start coz they got everything easily with minimum effort, they struggle to compete, many resign and start preparing back for govt sector. in cricketing terms, Its like a fast bowler who is bowling at 145k can up his pace to 150k easily if that gives him incentive. Someone who has bowled his whole life at 120-125k wont be able to hit the same speeds of 145-150k that easily. coffee_rules, Sgattick10 and mishra 1 1 1
Trichromatic Posted July 27 Posted July 27 4 hours ago, coffee_rules said: Yes, it can be abolished constitutionally but it’ll never be eradicated, politically and socially. Unless you’re living in utopia, in India politically, you cannot get rid of reservations in our lifetime. Caste is preserved, politically not other way around. If you make it punishable by law, practice can be reduced. Nothing can be abolished, murders, crimes keep happening. Only thing is it’s a social stigma and fear which stops many people. coffee_rules 1
Trichromatic Posted July 27 Posted July 27 4 hours ago, singhvivek141 said: Which govt will take that risk ? When its sure shot result is them going out of power. And the new govt may bring back the same caste policy, so net total zero. Unless India is under dictatorship or one party rule like China...these things will continue. Democracy is the root cause of evil in Indian society. Risk wise even reservation is not going anywhere. So if you’re demanding something risky, then demand for eradication of root cause itself.
Trichromatic Posted July 27 Posted July 27 3 hours ago, singhvivek141 said: Simple reasoning 1. GC has to pay full fees of exams, OBC maybe 60-70%, SC/ST maybe 10-15%. 2. GC has to score higher marks due to cutoff and competition, SC/ST at times have zero or negative mark as cutoff. 3. After getting the admission to college, GC has to pay again 100% of their fees, others get scholarship and as much as 100% of their tution fees refunded. 4. Same happens once they complete college and get a job in public sector. GC has to wait for promotions despite being more capable due to the learnings he went through in stage 1-2-3. Reserved class continues to get quota in promotions, no incentive to improve. 5. Those GC kids who dont get public sector jobs, they start working in pvt sector. As pvt sector is usually high risk high reward..they get the fruit of their hard work instead of being blocked by a quota. This motivates them. 6. New opportunities come up for foreign settlement, GC students, usually due to the stages they have went through in their early life are more prepared to bend their back for extra reward (in this case more money). For most reserved students, since their foundation was hollow from the start coz they got everything easily with minimum effort, they struggle to compete, many resign and start preparing back for govt sector. in cricketing terms, Its like a fast bowler who is bowling at 145k can up his pace to 150k easily if that gives him incentive. Someone who has bowled his whole life at 120-125k wont be able to hit the same speeds of 145-150k that easily. If that’s the case, why don’t B Techs from IITs take up M Tech at IITs even when there are lot of seats available? Why do students of tier 2 and 3 colleges take that up? People end up going to foreign because they can earn more money there, more than what public sector or private sector of India can offer them. About cricket - it was dominated mostly by Brahmins till 90s and Indian team was mediocre at best. It became better it became more diverse opening opportunities for all. Check all fast bowlers - job which is not glam in India: Kapil Dev Srinath Zaheer Khan Umesh Yadav Shami Siraj Bumrah Onlu Srinath was Brahmin and add Ishant as well.
singhvivek141 Posted July 27 Posted July 27 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Trichromatic said: If that’s the case, why don’t B Techs from IITs take up M Tech at IITs even when there are lot of seats available? Why do students of tier 2 and 3 colleges take that up? People end up going to foreign because they can earn more money there, more than what public sector or private sector of India can offer them. About cricket - it was dominated mostly by Brahmins till 90s and Indian team was mediocre at best. It became better it became more diverse opening opportunities for all. Check all fast bowlers - job which is not glam in India: Kapil Dev Srinath Zaheer Khan Umesh Yadav Shami Siraj Bumrah Onlu Srinath was Brahmin and add Ishant as well. Explained it already. Someone who has already put a ton of effort in getting graduation from IIT, why would he still put effort to get MTech ? They would rather get a reward for their efforts and earn massive amount of money ? Which foreign countries offer to them. Earning money is still the principle KPI on which success/failure of an individual is judged in our society. There are many tier 2/3 college kids, who dont even get a job (forget about a good job). Hence they revert to studying Mtech from IITs in pursuit of getting a high paying job. Most of them dont do by choice but rather forced by necessity. Agree on the pay gap, and thats the foundation on which Indian IT boom was based upon. Cheap labour (comparatively) logging hours for which companies can charge money from the client. Fast bowlers wise we also had Agarkar (another Brahmin). Although, sports is different from education. We dont have quota in sports (yet) and hence a player has to perform equally amongst peers to make it through. My point was that someone who has bowled his whole life at 125k (getting just enough to pass lower cutoff) cant suddenly bowl 150k (in the top leagues), in comparison a 145k bowler (who is studying hard to pass higher cutoffs) can keep up to hit 150k bracket. Edited July 27 by singhvivek141 mishra and coffee_rules 1 1
singhvivek141 Posted July 27 Posted July 27 (edited) 54 minutes ago, Trichromatic said: Risk wise even reservation is not going anywhere. So if you’re demanding something risky, then demand for eradication of root cause itself. I am up for it, and frankly in most of the metro cities hardly anyone cares now. Even in villages this problem isnt as prominent as some 50-60 years back. Problem is, to fix one problem we have went to an extremely opposite end. Many SC kids these days dont want to study, will keep roaming on the streets smoking cigarettes, bidi and clamoring for their favorite "Neta" on bikes with blue flags, and if you stop them, they will threaten with "Sc/St" act. Hence GCs have stopped interacting with them. When they get married and realize that now is the time to earn for their family, they are left with no option. NOTE: These incidents are my first hand experience of my hometown. In an ideal situation, one reservation per family rule should be applied. So that it doesnt become a trend going through generations after generations and instead spread to every last family which is still in need of upliftment. Edited July 27 by singhvivek141
Mariyam Posted July 27 Posted July 27 7 hours ago, Trichromatic said: Why not make abolish caste system and make it illegal? What does that mean? How do you 'abolish' a construct? Discrimination basis caste is illegal
LordPrabhzy Posted July 27 Posted July 27 49 minutes ago, Mariyam said: What does that mean? How do you 'abolish' a construct? Discrimination basis caste is illegal What is stopping reservation to be purely on economic basis? Why should a kid of a ST/SC IAS/Governmental officer/college professor parents who have utilised reservations many times already get the privilege of this reservation compared to a poor kid from a General cat family?- this wont solve the social evil of caste discrimination but at least its the fairest of ways that merit is rewarded but circumstances are taken into account for everyone equally and not just favour people who have utilised reservations for generations and in a good financial place purely based on what their family 'caste' is Sgattick10 1
randomGuy Posted July 27 Posted July 27 (edited) Baniya, Brahmin are so dominant in competitive exams that I think if reservation is abolished, all govt colleges n govt jobs esp group A and B will have 70-80% people from these 2 groups which are 8% percentage of population. I am strongly in favour of caste based reservations because of injustices of the past and need for representation of sc/st in govt jobs/colleges. Creamy layer in sc,st should not be given reservation, from sc/st , it should be given to non creamy layer. (I happen to be GC) Edited July 27 by randomGuy
LordPrabhzy Posted July 27 Posted July 27 15 minutes ago, randomGuy said: Baniya, Brahmin are so dominant in competitive exams that I think if reservation is abolished, all govt colleges n govt jobs esp group A and B will have 70-80% people from these 2 groups which are 8% percentage of population. I am strongly in favour of caste based reservations because of injustices of the past and need for representation of sc/st in govt jobs/colleges. Creamy layer in sc,st should not be given reservation, from sc/st , it should be given to non creamy layer. (I happen to be GC) youre happy for millionaire parents who are SC/ST after using reservations for example and their kids to also be given reservation over a lower middle class GC? People really have lost the ability to have a logical interpretation of the issue and solution for today's society in the case of reservations Sgattick10 1
BacktoCricaddict Posted July 27 Posted July 27 1 hour ago, Mariyam said: What does that mean? How do you 'abolish' a construct? Discrimination basis caste is illegal Tangentially, do they still ask for religion / caste on government forms? If so, that must be stopped. Separate state and religion.
randomGuy Posted July 27 Posted July 27 2 minutes ago, LordPrabhzy said: youre happy for millionaire parents who are SC/ST after using reservations for example and their kids to also be given reservation over a lower middle class GC? People really have lost the ability to have a logical interpretation of the issue and solution for today's society in the case of reservations Those will come under creamy layer. Ab to PAN, aadhar, ITR , Bank statement etc. se verify ho sakta hai... those parents also who may have already availed group a group b jobs through reservation... those families also are creamy layer. Read on this topic of creamy layer. mishra 1
BacktoCricaddict Posted July 27 Posted July 27 This debate has been going on forever. Even when I was growing up, we would argue that wealth/income based, rather than caste-based, reservation is ideal, but immediately someone would bring up valid points regarding corruption - obtaining fake income certificates, using proxies to own one's properties etc etc. Corruption by the powerful is the biggest problem. Everything else is secondary. Mariyam 1
LordPrabhzy Posted July 27 Posted July 27 1 minute ago, randomGuy said: Those will come under creamy layer. Ab to PAN, aadhar, ITR , Bank statement etc. se verify ho sakta hai... those parents also who may have already availed group a group b jobs through reservation... those families also are creamy layer. Read on this topic of creamy layer. Thats fine- this first step to ban creamy layer for SC/ST people should be implemented first. Once that is done we are left with underprivileged SC/ST category. Why is this step so hard to do? And how many years in your opinion is the time frame where as a society we can say, lets end caste reservation as we have supported the downtrodden with reservations and provided social mobility- 25 years? 50 years? 100 years?. My opinion is till this version of caste reservation remains India will continue being a third world dump indefinitely- and i don't care what anyone thinks of that singhvivek141 1
singhvivek141 Posted July 27 Posted July 27 8 minutes ago, randomGuy said: Those will come under creamy layer. Ab to PAN, aadhar, ITR , Bank statement etc. se verify ho sakta hai... those parents also who may have already availed group a group b jobs through reservation... those families also are creamy layer. Read on this topic of creamy layer. Uspe bhi bawaal hoga. Votes nahi aaenge. Best option is slowly privatise PSUs...na rahegi govt jobs na rahega reservation. Except key sectors like Defence, Police, Railways...etc move everything to pvt. Even Banks. Just keep a body to govern them...but thats it. Govt job is to run the country, not to produce jobs. Lazy sarkari teachers or bank employees just continue to fart on the chair whole day, work for 3-4 hours and then cry that govt job isnt the same which it used to be 20-30 years back (when they wont even work for 1 hour a day).
randomGuy Posted July 27 Posted July 27 2 minutes ago, LordPrabhzy said: Thats fine- this first step to ban creamy layer for SC/ST people should be implemented first. Once that is done we are left with underprivileged SC/ST category. Why is this step so hard to do? And how many years in your opinion is the time frame where as a society we can say, lets end caste reservation as we have supported the downtrodden with reservations and provided social mobility- 25 years? 50 years? 100 years?. My opinion is till this version of caste reservation remains India will continue being a third world dump indefinitely- and i don't care what anyone thinks of that Atleast you agree on first step to ban creamy layer. I will talk about 2nd step when it's time for that. Abhi it is premature by decades. Our civic sense is worst in the world. Reservation end se pehle wo sahi ho sakti hai? Desh ke Kalyan ke liye civic sense is THE single important thing. If reservation is 1% of the problem, civic sense is 99%. Govt job bharti bhi kam hain. Jobs in govt offices are contractual, many of them are now. Govt Jobs ka charm bhi nahi hai...i have myself left govt job. Ye reservation ka issue overrated hai.
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