When McGrath mastered the Master

[harmuk]

Sad but so true......Only if he had retired after the WC win. Why oh why midget????

Just as the man in your avatar, he is obsessed with records.

[Muloghonto]

By that yardstick SRT wont hold a candle to even Alan Border, let alone Sunny Gavaskar. That specific post of yours that has been quoted shoud make a very strong case why Viv Richards is the most dominating batsman of last 30 years.

I dont understand. Border ever did something of note against top class bowlers, except, try his best to survive ? Sunny, Border, practically all the great batsmen, with the exception of Viv and Sehwag, had the 'stonewall/survive against the great one, make hay against the weak one' mentality. Sobers,Lara,Crowe and Sachin were unique, in the sense that they were far less subservient to the strong bowler than the rest. But they didnt exactly go 'rock em, sock em' like Viv or Sehwag does/did but they are/were much more 'punish the bad balls, dont care who they are' type batsmen. As for Viv being the most dominant- well duh. When you come in behind the greatest opening pair of your generation and is backed up by far and away the greatest bowling attacks ever fielded, its easy to be 'rock em,sock em' batsmen in Viv's mould. Just like Gillchrist was. Besides, this whole 'how well one did against another bowler through their careers' is a BS statistic that has nothign whatsoever to do with batting greatness. If i am trying to set a target with 4 sessions left to go get them out, its a different approach to McGrath than when its first session. Its a different approach on a pitch giving him excess bounce or excess movement. It matters how well the captains rotated their bowlers on a given day, who was more effective and whether McGrath came back winded or after a long break while the 2nd rankers kept the opposition at bay, a bazillion things that simple 'he scored 10 runs off of McGrath off of this innings, so he didnt do well' kinda nonsense. The fundamental job of a batsman is to survive a bowler and the bowler to get a batsman out in test cricket. How much runs i scored off of which bowler, is a completely irrelevant statistic without the context of the match, the level of bowling on a given day, etc. factored in. It is quite easy to put in a far more dominant performance scoring 20 runs off of McGrath and 80 off of Gillespie than the other way round. given how they are bowling that given day and what the pitch is doing.

[vvvslaxman]

I agree with McGrath being superior by 60 40' date=' but don't agree with Donald having upper hand. His relatively poor average in SA (until last series) was because he lost his wicket many times to Hansie Cronje. I recall few innings where is bludgeoned Donald. In fact Cronje got him as many number of times as Donald did though Cronje would have bowled to him much less number of overs.[/quote'] No that is why i say you won't find in stat. He really got him into all sorts of tangle with his pace and bounce.

[vvvslaxman]

In battles between great batsmen and great bowlers, bowlers have a distinct edge. They need that one special delivery(s) to undo so many deliveries of skillful batting. So I don't go by mere averages or dismissals while evaluating which bowlers dominated which batsmen. You also have to watch the matches to see the comfort level of the batsmen - how many misses, hits on the pads, missed catches, how many dominant shots, how many skillful defensive shots and many other factors. The average by itself is a useful parameter but not the final thing. Bowlers can go all out against batsmen, but batsmen cannot afford to be aggressive (unless you are a certain Sehwag!) and smash good bowlers out of the park, though they may be capable of doing that. Intelligent batsmen see out tough bowlers and aren't worried about their image - in the final analyis, the total runs you score matters for your team and not what you scored against particular bowlers.

+1 You should have watched the match. Averages don't give a sh** about how they actually are comfortable.

[vvvslaxman]

Sachin always had this wierd issue with mediud fast bowlers not just Cronje.Remember Razzaq getting him out a few times to.And a pak medium fats bowler (Atur- Rehman) will be the one who usually get him out in Sharjah after Sachin comfortably playing Akram and Waqar.

Inswing bowlers gave him problems. Even Gavin Larsen had his moments against him.

[ravishingravi]

Well to my mind, over a ten year period, Mcgrath has had better of Tendulkar. Little doubt about that. I can only think of few instances when Tendulkar could either comfortably defend or maybe go after him. Most of them being ODIs.

[vayuu1]

Inswing bowlers gave him problems. Even Gavin Larsen had his moments against him.

Not just inswing bowlers ,even off spinners,he basically always had problem with any thingthat comes in:giggle:.

[I6MTW]

Only Person who played Mcgrath well was Kallis.

[daryl1985]

Only Person who played Mcgrath well was Kallis.

KP played him better. Also, despite being dismissed on numerous occasions by McGrath, Lara scored a lot of runs in games against Australia.

[vvvslaxman]

KP played him better. Also, despite being dismissed on numerous occasions by McGrath, Lara scored a lot of runs in games against Australia.

We have to keep in mind Mcgrath was in twilight of his career. Similar bowler like Mcgrath (Asif) gave him very very tough time.

[CSK Fan]

Just as the man in your avatar' date=' he is obsessed with records.[/quote'] Err, what record is he chasing now? Arent his records (averages, etc) on the decline actually. Oh wait, its you, please carry on

[BeautifulGame]

Only Person who played Mcgrath well was Kallis.

:lmao: Kallis was pretty poor against Macgrath and warne

[Ultimate_Game]

Err, what record is he chasing now? Arent his records (averages, etc) on the decline actually. Oh wait, its you, please carry on

First player to play 200 Tests.

[I6MTW]

:lmao: Kallis was pretty poor against Macgrath and warne

He struggled against warne not macgrath. Also when KP played Macgrath was not in his peak. He played him in his end days.

[rkt.india]

We have to keep in mind Mcgrath was in twilight of his career. Similar bowler like Mcgrath (Asif) gave him very very tough time.

Yes. He was mainly dependent on his consistency and bounce on those day. He never had swing but had decent pace with bounce. Bounce was there but bite was not, had lost considerable amount of pace in his last few days.

[daryl1985]

Yes. He was mainly dependent on his consistency and bounce on those day. He never had swing but had decent pace with bounce. Bounce was there but bite was not' date=' had lost considerable amount of pace in his last few days.[/quote'] True, but even in that 1st test at Lords when McGrath was destroying the rest of the English line-up i thought KP played him well.

[CSK Fan]

Head to head McGrath-Tendulkar is not in the 40 range, but the average is around 15. http://indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=1765513&postcount=485

But how much is the ideal average of a batsman against a bowler? Is this average per test? Then considering the fact that he averages 15 against one bowler, would that translate to a 60 average per match for 4 bowlers? How do I read that number?

[Ultimate_Game]

But how much is the ideal average of a batsman against a bowler? Is this average per test? Then considering the fact that he averages 15 against one bowler' date=' would that translate to a 60 average per match for 4 bowlers? How do I read that number?[/quote'] Two ways to look at it... 1. How much did other leading batsmen of the time fare against the said leading bowlers? If likes of Lara, Dravid, Kallis etc. average more than Tendulkar it would mean they managed better than Tendulkar. 2. How many balls did Tendulkar average per innings against the said leading bowler(s). If say Tendulkar, or any other batsman, average 60-65 balls per dismissal against the bowler even though he only scored 15 runs, he would have done his job IMO. That would mean the batsman was smart enough to preserve his wkt against the dangerous bowler and was able to cash in against the other bowlers. So yeah more analysis needs to be done as the average of a batsman against a particular bowler wouldn't mean much in itself.

[The Outsider]

But how much is the ideal average of a batsman against a bowler? Is this average per test? Then considering the fact that he averages 15 against one bowler' date=' would that translate to a 60 average per match for 4 bowlers? How do I read that number?[/quote'] No, those are the numbers for: Runs Tendulkar scored against McGrath/Number of times McGrath dismissed him. The latter part of your post is irrelevant in that context. For what's it's worth I consider it a pretty meaningless stat to compare Tendulkar one to one with McGrath, but put it there because people were not sure of the numbers. When Tendulkar plays for India and McGrath plays for Australia, Tendulkar's job is to score as many runs as he can against the Australian team, not against McGrath, and McGrath's job is to dismiss the Indian team for a low score and it's irrelevant if Tendulkar stays not out or is dismissed by someone else.

[vvvslaxman]

Although it is fascinating to analyze one on one contests, it is not fair to batsmen as all it takes a batsman is to make one mistake. Bowlers could make any number of mistakes and still come back at the batsman. Average against bowler won't give us clear idea. It is the comfort level of batsman against a specific bowler should give an idea. From that point of view nobody has totally pwned Tendulkar when he was at his peak. Nobody has totally pwned Mcgrath at his peak either. This one over assaults against bowlers don't mean much for guy of Mcgrath's calibre. Even Razzaq hit Mcgrath hit for 5 boundaries in one over.