"oh! okay" Kohli deadbats Harbhajan's pitch jibe

[rkt.india]

11 minutes ago, Texan said:

Here's some batting statistics for Tests in which Harbhajan Singh played:

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;groupby=team;home_or_away=1;orderby=runs;player_involve=7139;team=6;template=results;type=batting

 

Our batting average for matches played in India in matches that involved Harbhajan was 37.64

 

And here are the corresponding statistics for Tests in which Ashwin has played:

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;groupby=host;home_or_away=1;orderby=runs;player_involve=12894;team=6;template=results;type=batting

 

Our batting average for matches played in India in matches that involved Ashwin is 37.82

 

So much for flat tracks! 

what about the batting average for opposition?

[Texan]

1 minute ago, rkt.india said:

what about the batting average for opposition?

You can find it out, but I don't see the point. If wickets were truly much flatter then and are rank turners now, then our batting should have also not been able to get the kind of runs now than in the past. Especially when you consider that that was an era when we had top class spin players like Laxman and Sehwag along with ATGs like Dravid and Tendulkar batting for us. In the current lot, only Pujara and Vijay to an extent are truly competent against quality spin bowling. However, even so, records suggest that our batting average has not changed much at all. So, pitches cannot be the sole difference between the wicket taking abilities of Ashwin and Harbhajan.

[rkt.india]

40 minutes ago, Texan said:

I said "drift" and "loop", not "turn". Read my post carefully. You need to look up what they mean in cricketing terms to understand that Harbhajan had neither. They are difficult arts to master. Harbhajan operated mostly on delivering the ball at a pace at which batsmen cannot adjust their shots and avoid an LBW or bowled or an inside edge on the pad. Drift and loop are used to beat a batsman in the flight, which Harbhajan lacked even at the peak of his career.

Regarding loop and drift, he did have everything you want to see from a spinner but he used to mix the pace very well and deceive the batsmen in the air and off the pitch, both. I have a video evidence from 2001. Now check out second dismissal of Mark Waugh who was beaten in flight and look at the loop, played back and edge it. There are other such dismissals where batsmen are misjudging the length due to flight and loop. Saying he didnt have loop and flight is completely wrong.

 

Actually, ashwin too depends a lot on accuracy and lbws and bowled and caught behind while Bhajji was was depending more on his flight and bounce getting a lot of bad-pad catches. Bhajji was master at beating batsmen in flight and trajectory at his peak.

 

See this video

Edited October 14, 2016 by rkt.india

[Texan]

8 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Regarding loop and drift, he did have everything you want to see from a spinner but he used to mix the pace very well and deceive the batsmen in the air and off the pitch, both. I have a video evidence from 2001. Now check out second dismissal of Mark Waugh who was beaten in flight and look at the loop, played back and edge it. There are other such dismissals where batsmen are misjudging the length due to flight and loop. Saying he didnt have loop and flight is completely wrong. 

 

See this video

Sure, he used subtle variations in pace to get wickets, but getting drift and loop to deceive batsmen is something else. Besides, in 2001, he was almost unplayable. Problem was after that he just started darting the ball in and never really improved his bowling after that series.

 

[rkt.india]

26 minutes ago, Texan said:

Sure, he used subtle variations in pace to get wickets, but getting drift and loop to deceive batsmen is something else. Besides, in 2001, he was almost unplayable. Problem was after that he just started darting the ball in and never really improved his bowling after that series.

 

You are just mixing things up. First 6-7 years of his career were great. You dont get 21 5-fers for nothing in 49 tests without flight and loop. He only started darting and bowling quicker in later part of his career after 2007. With the advent of T20 and him playing a lot of LOIs affected his bowling overall, his bowling became more suited T20s rather than tests.

[Texan]

2 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

You are just mixing things up. First 6-7 years of his career were great. You dont get 21 5-fers for nothing in 49 tests without flight and loop. He only started darting and bowling quicker in later part of his career after 2007. With the advent of T20 and him playing a lot of LOIs affected his bowling overall, his bowling became more suited T20s rather than tests.

What about the batting averages? How come they are so similar now and in the past when wickets then were supposed to be flat and now rank turners?

[philcric]

The bowling Bradman that Ashwin is fast becoming

 

http://www.wisdenindia.com/cricket-blog/the-bowling-bradman-that-ashwin-is-fast-becoming/225355

 

Quote

 

The numbers do provoke thought.

In Harbhajan Singh, it provoked the thought that the pitches Ashwin, Jadeja and company got to bowl onwere far more spinner-friendly than the ones he ever got, and that he would have bagged heaps more wickets if he had bowled on them. The very unsaid, but very clear, inference was, “They’re not as good as me.”

Leaving aside the question of grace in a player not acknowledging the deeds of a younger competitor who looks like he might surpass him, it’s worth examining the hypothesis. A friendly pitch can turn a good bowler into a demon. Is Ashwin a demon only because pitches have become more helpful?

There is no objective way to assess this. Those who have seen cricket closely from 1998 aver that pitches in India haven’t changed nature too drastically. Sure, the South Africa series had a couple of diabolical ones, but Harbhajan got his share of them too during his career. One measure could be in the average number of overs a match lasted in the Tests Harbhajan has played in India, versus the same number for Ashwin. If the number is significantly smaller for Ashwin’s Tests, then Harbhajan may have a point that pitches have been much more spinner-friendly and matches are finishing quicker.

	Tests played in India	Total Overs	Overs per Test	Overs per Test bowled by India
Harbhajan	55	19775.4	359.3	182.3
Ashwin	22	7047.5	320.2	166.3

That’s not a table Harbhajan will draw any comfort from. So far, the home Tests Ashwin has taken part in have lasted only just over a session less than those Harbhajan took part in. As for how long India bowled in each Test, it’s just about half a session – across both innings, mind.

 

 

[rkt.india]

15 minutes ago, Texan said:

What about the batting averages? How come they are so similar now and in the past when wickets then were supposed to be flat and now rank turners?

you need to check the batting averages of opposite teams, not Indian team. Indian team batting averages won't be too different because opposition teams usually do not have the spinners to trouble our batsmen. This is the reason, we only lost one series in last decade at home that too against England when they had two really good spinners and our senior batsmen were on decline. Check out how many 100s have been scored in tests in India since 2013. I guess not more than 4-5, probably all by Indian batsmen, 3 of them in the last test at Indore which probably was the best batting pitch in the last 6-7 tests we played in India.

 

also, check how many 100s opposition batsmen have scored in India since 2013?

Edited October 14, 2016 by rkt.india

[Texan]

6 hours ago, rkt.india said:

you need to check the batting averages of opposite teams, not Indian team. Indian team batting averages won't be too different because opposition teams usually do not have the spinners to trouble our batsmen. This is the reason, we only lost one series in last decade at home that too against England when they had two really good spinners and our senior batsmen were on decline. Check out how many 100s have been scored in tests in India since 2013. I guess not more than 4-5, probably all by Indian batsmen, 3 of them in the last test at Indore which probably was the best batting pitch in the last 6-7 tests we played in India.

 

also, check how many 100s opposition batsmen have scored in India since 2013?

How can opposition's batting average determine that? Opposition's batting average could well be low during Ashwin's tenure simply because he is a better bowler than Harbhajan. To determine whether a pitch was truly a rank turner or a flat track, you need to see how our batsmen performed on the same track. 

 

As you can see, despite having superb players of spin bowling during Bhajji's era, the batting average for us is not much different during the two eras meaning that the condition of the pitches may not be as drastically different as Bhajji's is making them out to be. 

[Mosher]

Two of India’s top off-spinners finally decided to clear the air about their ongoing rift about pitches in India and how it could have helped the bowlers in the past to pick more wickets in Test cricket. Harbhajan Singh and R Ashwin were against the controversy that has racked up after the former’s tweet about difference between conditions of pitches now and four years back.

Last week, Harbhajan had tweeted that the third Test match between India and New Zealand in Indore will get over inside three days as the pitch was a dry one with cracks over it. He faced a lot of flack from fans as they asked him why he is complaining about the pitch when he also got the same during his career.

Ashwin completely ridiculed the controversy and said that the banter going on is unhealthy. He also added that it was because of Harbhajan’s performance in 2001 (against Australia) that he began bowling off-spin.

To this the The Turbanator replied that he has nothing against Ashwin and wants him to keep the flag high. According to Harbhajan Singh, his words were misconstrued for reasons he is not aware of.

A tweet from Harbhajan which said that he got turning pitches in only two matches out of 103 Tests and added that Anil Kumble and his wicket count would have been different had he got the pitches spinners get these days, was the cause of controversy.

http://indianexpress.com/article/sports/cricket/i-started-bowling-off-spin-because-of-harbhajan-singh-the-banter-is-unhealthy-r-ashwin-3088011/

[putrevus]

If Ashwin really decimates both England and Australia in next two series then he truly will surpass Bhajji. Bhajji had to compete against arguably the best match winner in Kumble for wickets at home. Ashwin got a lucky break he was dropped after Joburg test so he missed out many tests abroad otherwise he was no way reaching 200 wickets in 38 tests.

 

 

[CG]

How can opposition's batting average determine that? Opposition's batting average could well be low during Ashwin's tenure simply because he is a better bowler than Harbhajan. To determine whether a pitch was truly a rank turner or a flat track, you need to see how our batsmen performed on the same track. 

 

As you can see, despite having superb players of spin bowling during Bhajji's era, the batting average for us is not much different during the two eras meaning that the condition of the pitches may not be as drastically different as Bhajji's is making them out to be. 

I doubt from your comments you watched Indian test cricket in 2000-2007.Pitches in India were flat except odd occasions where we had to prepare rank turners.We had many draws during those days.Regarding opp batsman how many batsman today have average above 45 a handful and batsmanship against spin is worse Nowadays even Indian Batting struggles against part-timers.Its really difficult to compare bhajji and Ashwin but as Cricketer ashwin has more potential than bhajji for sure.

[mishra]

icfers. Harbhajan Singh played against very good opposition. He wasnt nowhere pathetic as some of posts suggests here. He played against Second best ATG team in History of cricket and fared really well. Africans, Lankans, Pakistanis and even Windies were quite solid side during his period. And players didnt had T20 mentality.

 

Cricket is team sport, India has to show some spine in a overseas trip in Australia Africa and England before I will put Ashwin anywhere near Bhajji. Reason. For example, No one talks about Andy Flower the wicket keeper batsman while Dhoni, Jaya,Gilly are allways discussed.

[Forever Indian]

32 minutes ago, CG said:

I doubt from your comments you watched Indian test cricket in 2000-2007.Pitches in India were flat except odd occasions where we had to prepare rank turners.We had many draws during those days.Regarding opp batsman how many batsman today have average above 45 a handful and batsmanship against spin is worse Nowadays even Indian Batting struggles against part-timers.Its really difficult to compare bhajji and Ashwin but as Cricketer ashwin has more potential than bhajji for sure.

There weren't significantly more draws between 2000 and 2007. Between 2000 and 2007 there were 13 drawn home tests vs 10 drawn home tests between 2008 and 2015 (same 8 years period). The number of draws gradually have decreased over the decades as the game has evolved.

 

There we even more no. of draws before Harbhajan period, did the spinners then complain saying Harbhajan was getting more wickets due to result oriented gameplay of that period? All Bhajji is showing is sour grapes by undermining someone else's achievements.

[CG]

There weren't significantly more draws between 2000 and 2007. Between 2000 and 2007 there were 13 drawn home tests vs 10 drawn home tests between 2008 and 2015 (same 8 years period). The number of draws gradually have decreased over the decades as the game has evolved.

 

There we even more no. of draws before Harbhajan period, did the spinners then complain saying Harbhajan was getting more wickets due to result oriented gameplay of that period? All Bhajji is showing is sour grapes by undermining someone else's achievements.

We played more during 2007 -2013 than 2000-2007 so the draw percentage is what matters not no of tests.

[fineleg]

Why does Harbhajan Singh tweet to Ashwin as "Dear" - feminine?

Tweet from HS to RA: "Dear got nothing against you"