"oh! okay" Kohli deadbats Harbhajan's pitch jibe

[fineleg]

"oh! okay" Kohli deadbats Harbhajan's pitch jibe

 

Harbhajan Singh, India's most successful offspinner at the moment, has opposed the kind of surfaces the team has played on at home over the last 'four' years. He's stated as much in several interviews. He used the hash tag 'tailor-made conditions for spinners' while referring to the Indore surface.

 

He went on to say his and Anil Kumble's wickets tally would have been "something else" if they had bowled more on such pitches. Virat Kohli, to whom the mention of the word 'pitch' is a red rag, was told of Harbhajan's comments after India had completed the whitewash of New Zealand inside four days in Indore.

 

Kohli was then asked if he attributed these wins to pitches or "something else". "Who made that statement?" Kohli shot back. "Harbhajan Singh," he was told. "Oh? Okay," he stopped.

Edited October 11, 2016 by fineleg

[Ankit_sharma03]

Kohli was expectedly asked for a reaction on Harbhajan Singh’s recent tweet: "Kumble and my Test wicket count would have been something else if we got wickets like last 4 years we playing on."

"Even if it is a turning pitch you have to bowl well. Spin doesn’t happen only off the pitch," he said, "Spin is about how many revs you throw off the shoulder first. And then the ball will do something off the pitch.

"I quite clearly remember in the World Cup (WT20) after we lost to New Zealand, suddenly their spinners were quality and we were found out. I don’t see anybody talking about it now. The same spinners have played and why they have not been able to pick wickets? It is as simple as that. Our fast bowlers picked wickets everywhere, nobody complained about it."

Edited October 11, 2016 by Ankit_sharma03

[gattaca]

what is harbhanjan blind ? The amount dislike he has for ashwin is he forgetting anil kumble was never spinner of the ball. Kumble was more of line and length bowler was deadly on 4 and 5thday pitches when ball kept low. Comparing two spinners who haven't played together is stupid.

[fineleg]

Have Bhajji and Ashwin played together in recent past?

[gattaca]

3 minutes ago, fineleg said:

Have Bhajji and Ashwin played together in recent past?

2012

[Ankit_sharma03]

2 minutes ago, fineleg said:

Have Bhajji and Ashwin played together in recent past?

yup

Ind vs aus 1st 2 test

Ind vs Bang

Ind vs SL

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[putrevus]

Bhajji is sounding more and more like Bishen Bedi against Murali. Bedi at least had guts to come out say Murali was chucker and Bedi was partially right too Murali was/is a chucker.

 

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

3 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Bhajji is sounding more and more like Bishen Bedi against Murali. Bedi at least had guts to come out say Murali was chucker and Bedi was partially right too Murali was/is a chucker.

 

 

Bishen singh bedi was someone who beilved in old school cricket so his thoughts against chucking was valid. The diff is his thoughts were'nt out sheer personal jealousy which bhajji is filled with. Bedi had diff of opinion which he has been for many thing including t20, modern day captaincy n all . But thats diff  from bhajji comments

[bowl_out]

50 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

yup

Ind vs aus 1st 2 test

Ind vs Bang

Ind vs SL

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Can you pls Tweet this to Harbhajan? He seems to like your tweets and responds to them 

[Ankit_sharma03]

3 minutes ago, bowl_out said:

 

Can you pls Tweet this to Harbhajan? He seems to like your tweets and responds to them 

Many people have already done that

[sourab10forever]

59 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

yup

Ind vs aus 1st 2 test

Ind vs Bang

Ind vs SL

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

R Ash hopelessly outshine him..

 

[sourab10forever]

20 minutes ago, bowl_out said:

 

Can you pls Tweet this to Harbhajan? He seems to like your tweets and responds to them 

I just did..

Let's see if we get a reaction

 

[gakgupta]

yup

Ind vs aus 1st 2 test

Ind vs Bang

Ind vs SL

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's unfair to compare a fading light with shining light...it is not an apple to apple comparison in 2012. Ideal comparison would be bhajji before 2009 vs ashwin post 2012...

Well, dhoni could be the best guy to comment, as he has seen both of them first hand.

Well, as a spectator I think both are very close when it comes to skillset. But there is huge difference in attitude. Bhajji never had plan B but ashwin always has plan B. Also ashwin 's willingness to learn n improve everyday is incredible.

Sent from my XT1068 using Tapatalk

[The Realist]

How about a comparison between a darts player & Dartbhajan?

[Ankit_sharma03]

14 minutes ago, gakgupta said:

It's unfair to compare a fading light with shining light...it is not an apple to apple comparison in 2012. Ideal comparison would be bhajji before 2009 vs ashwin post 2012...

Well, dhoni could be the best guy to comment, as he has seen both of them first hand.

Well, as a spectator I think both are very close when it comes to skillset. But there is huge difference in attitude. Bhajji never had plan B but ashwin always has plan B. Also ashwin 's willingness to learn n improve everyday is incredible.

Sent from my XT1068 using Tapatalk

Comparsions often are unfair but one thing between two, bhajji was a chucker and ashwin has a nice clean action. The whole argument of advantage goes for toss when one guy has been bending rules for so many years. 

 

Also yes u can say he was fading at that point but a chance is a chance, he didnt perform on many occasion so he shud atleast shutup n be a man enough to admit now ashwin is better. 

Sportsman spirit

Edited October 11, 2016 by Ankit_sharma03

[Lannister]

The chucker is getting jealous. He should consider himself lucky that he didn't undergo current testing method. 

[sscomp32]

16 minutes ago, Lannister said:

The chucker is getting jealous. He should consider himself lucky that he didn't undergo current testing method. 

THIS. His career may not have been this long if he faced the current tests. 

[Muloghonto]

Here is my take on this whole 'Harbhajan-gate' :

 

1. Pitches : Pitches in India today are, generally speaking, slightly more spin-conductive than in the early 2000s. If you look close enough, the same tell-tale smidgen of dust-ball turning significantly etc. are there 10-15 years back, too. But it is starting to crack up by 2nd day, instead of third day. We've had the same amount of raging turners as last time as well. I do give Ashwin an advantage in the 'better suited home pitches' factor, but only marginally.

 

2. Batsmen: This is where my heart goes out to Harbhajan. He bowled to Mark Waugh, Steve Waugh, Matty Hayden in 2001, for example. Ashwin hasn't faced this type of spin dominant batsmen in a single lineup yet and dominated. South Africa comes closest, mostly because of ABDV and Amla, but beyond them, they all 'faf' around spinners in India. 

Generally speaking, the era of Harbhajan had better batsmen against spin: South Africa was a better side, simply because you still had ABDV (perhaps not at his dominant best, but a 25 year old ABDV is easily a must-have for all teams) but also had Kallis, pretty much the ONLY South African batsman i've seen who seems to have a plan to play spin on alien conditions.

 

Today's batsmen are less patient against spin and there is a good reason why in most of test cricket's history, its the spinners who have held down the economy rate category down: its because against spinners, if you wait- or rather- have the ability to wait- you will most likely prevail. 

 

 

3. Harby vs Ashwin :

This is the crux of the argument though. I've seen them both at their peaks. Ashwin currently is a better bowler than Harby ever was. Sad, but true. This is because of a few reasons.

 

a) Planning : this is a *huge* component of bowling- some say the difference between great and also-ran can sometimes simply be the ability to plan & adapt. Sometimes the difference between getting a 'set batsman' for 75 instead of letting him run away to 200+ is planning & ability to tweak your plan in real time. In this aspect, Harby was always a reactor and a slow & predictable reactor at that.

Tell me, how many times do people recall the sequence of 'Harby is bleeding singles & twos early on..Harby looks pissed...Harby is trying to keep batsmen quiet...bam, batsmen hit a few fours and Harby immediately asks Ganguly to spread the field ' ?  This is the difference between Harby & Ashwin : Ashwin has a certain, Warne-esque ability to get into batsmen's heads, appear cool & composed but hawkish- a lot like a Poker player actually. This is where Ashwin is significantly ahead.

 

b) Control : Harby had pretty good control on his deliveries- i'd say at his peak he had a slightly better control than Ashwin. But this is largely negated by the fact that Ashwin is not trying to bowl metronomically, while Harby defaulted to the metronomic style regularly. Ashwin tries more variations. I am not talking just about doosras, arm-balls, etc. i am also talking about varying spin, length, line, drift, loop,etc. 

If you try to do more stuff, you will obviously give up a bit of control. But there is a payoff potential : if you are good at more stuff and have decent control over those things, you'd atleast fox the batsmen more often and thus get more wickets. Ashwin satisfies this principle exceedingly well. 

 

c) Variations : This is again, where Harby gets owned by Ashwin. And its obvious to those who see them both bowl. Ashwin has excellent control, he occasionally drops more 'hit-me balls' as he is continuously playing around with the line, length, spin, loop, drift, flight etc. of things.

Harby bowled like he wanted to bowl the 'perfect, unhittable big turning, spitting off break' and if the pitch didnt help him, go into the 'bowl ordinary off breaks and 1 doosra/over' mode. But once Harby found his length, he'd exact a stranglehold on that length against all batsmen, until the plan didn't work. 

So though i sympathize with Harby, but Ashwin is a greater bowler than him at peak form so far. But Harby has been good for a very long time  and Ashwin still is just over half way where Harby ended up. So Ashwin still needs to get there.

 

[Vilander]

7 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Here is my take on this whole 'Harbhajan-gate' :

 

1. Pitches : Pitches in India today are, generally speaking, slightly more spin-conductive than in the early 2000s. If you look close enough, the same tell-tale smidgen of dust-ball turning significantly etc. are there 10-15 years back, too. But it is starting to crack up by 2nd day, instead of third day. We've had the same amount of raging turners as last time as well. I do give Ashwin an advantage in the 'better suited home pitches' factor, but only marginally.

 

2. Batsmen: This is where my heart goes out to Harbhajan. He bowled to Mark Waugh, Steve Waugh, Matty Hayden in 2001, for example. Ashwin hasn't faced this type of spin dominant batsmen in a single lineup yet and dominated. South Africa comes closest, mostly because of ABDV and Amla, but beyond them, they all 'faf' around spinners in India. 

Generally speaking, the era of Harbhajan had better batsmen against spin: South Africa was a better side, simply because you still had ABDV (perhaps not at his dominant best, but a 25 year old ABDV is easily a must-have for all teams) but also had Kallis, pretty much the ONLY South African batsman i've seen who seems to have a plan to play spin on alien conditions.

 

Today's batsmen are less patient against spin and there is a good reason why in most of test cricket's history, its the spinners who have held down the economy rate category down: its because against spinners, if you wait- or rather- have the ability to wait- you will most likely prevail. 

 

 

3. Harby vs Ashwin :

This is the crux of the argument though. I've seen them both at their peaks. Ashwin currently is a better bowler than Harby ever was. Sad, but true. This is because of a few reasons.

 

a) Planning : this is a *huge* component of bowling- some say the difference between great and also-ran can sometimes simply be the ability to plan & adapt. Sometimes the difference between getting a 'set batsman' for 75 instead of letting him run away to 200+ is planning & ability to tweak your plan in real time. In this aspect, Harby was always a reactor and a slow & predictable reactor at that.

Tell me, how many times do people recall the sequence of 'Harby is bleeding singles & twos early on..Harby looks pissed...Harby is trying to keep batsmen quiet...bam, batsmen hit a few fours and Harby immediately asks Ganguly to spread the field ' ?  This is the difference between Harby & Ashwin : Ashwin has a certain, Warne-esque ability to get into batsmen's heads, appear cool & composed but hawkish- a lot like a Poker player actually. This is where Ashwin is significantly ahead.

 

b) Control : Harby had pretty good control on his deliveries- i'd say at his peak he had a slightly better control than Ashwin. But this is largely negated by the fact that Ashwin is not trying to bowl metronomically, while Harby defaulted to the metronomic style regularly. Ashwin tries more variations. I am not talking just about doosras, arm-balls, etc. i am also talking about varying spin, length, line, drift, loop,etc. 

If you try to do more stuff, you will obviously give up a bit of control. But there is a payoff potential : if you are good at more stuff and have decent control over those things, you'd atleast fox the batsmen more often and thus get more wickets. Ashwin satisfies this principle exceedingly well. 

 

c) Variations : This is again, where Harby gets owned by Ashwin. And its obvious to those who see them both bowl. Ashwin has excellent control, he occasionally drops more 'hit-me balls' as he is continuously playing around with the line, length, spin, loop, drift, flight etc. of things.

Harby bowled like he wanted to bowl the 'perfect, unhittable big turning, spitting off break' and if the pitch didnt help him, go into the 'bowl ordinary off breaks and 1 doosra/over' mode. But once Harby found his length, he'd exact a stranglehold on that length against all batsmen, until the plan didn't work. 

So though i sympathize with Harby, but Ashwin is a greater bowler than him at peak form so far. But Harby has been good for a very long time  and Ashwin still is just over half way where Harby ended up. So Ashwin still needs to get there.

 

Good post.

 

And other point is as Ashwin grows so will the batsmen that he faces, so eventually if he is to match or exceed harbhajan he would have to go through good batsmen inthe upcoming seasons.

[bowl_out]

9 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

 

3. Harby vs Ashwin :

This is the crux of the argument though. I've seen them both at their peaks. Ashwin currently is a better bowler than Harby ever was. Sad, but true. This is because of a few reasons.

 

 

Why is that sad? If we have a better bowler now than in the past (as you claim in the rest of your post as well), shouldn't we be happy about it?