Areas where Kohli is better than Tendulkar as a player.

[Laaloo]

Lol Is that thing patriot?

Edited December 12, 2016 by laaloo

[narenpande1]

8 minutes ago, Gambit said:

You are willing to overlook holes in Sangakkara however glaring but want to selectively cherry pick stats for Tendulkar by not including 2 GOATs of all time, not just his era and Steyn. Furthermore, you included Waqar but not Walsh (who has similar numbers). That is a bit disingenuous. Despite all this, apparently Tendulkar is #1 for you. Doesn't quite add up.

 

BTW welcome back patriot. You have mellowed quite a bit.

 

Lets talk on the point directly. You may include Walsh as well. Missed him. It is not likely to improve his performance from 37 odd avg alot.

 

I don't wear blinkers, rate him first among equals  ( not outright ) because of overall longevity and drive and his 3 peak years from 96-98 where he was blindingly good. 

 

If you take out his longetivity based records..there are players as good as him if not better.

 

I repeat the question - which truely great bowler from his peak in the 90's has he dominated apart from Warne  ? 

Edited December 12, 2016 by narenpande1

[express bowling]

21 minutes ago, mishra said:

I have been only watching cricket on tele since Hirwani won us test match sensationally. I do not go on basis of articles, word wizardly, stats or anything. I seriously think stats are very small part not whole that reflects about a player. In my estimate, If Amir,Starc,Steyn are visiting any country, they will get wickets. In current series and just concluded series, I was only expecting Woakes to take wicket (but he became toothless probably down to inexperience and lack of support). Next time he will get. I was confident that every other pacer will just make up the numbers.

 

The reason Tendulkar isnt reflected highly as he is in odis is because odis can be won by individual brilliance. You can win Hero Cup by bowling one big over. but tests are team game where you wont have no motivation left if your team hasnt got ability to take 20 wickets.

 

I am not going by stats only but my experience of watching hundreds of test matches.  In the '80s and early '90s, most batsmen were accumulators, barring Richards, Tendulkar, Lara, Greenidge, Botham, Kapil etc.  This made it easier for bowlers to dominate them as not everyone had the technique of a SMG . With lower quality protective gears, risk of physical injury was greater in that era too and this made the batsmen fearful of physical injury. All this resulted in  and bowlers looking  superb visually.

 

Nowadays, because of much better bats and the influence of T20s, a high %  of batters are always looking to attack the bowlers. Excellent protective gears have made them fearless.  Kohli was stepping out to hit 148 k bouncers from Johnson on bouncy Australian tracks, pulling them for 4s and then flexing his biceps...this attitude was largely missing earlier barring a couple of West Indian greats and a couple of all-rounders like Kapil.  This is making even exceptional bowlers look a little less great than they actually are.

 

The bowling stats in test matches in the last 5 years just show the effectiveness of the bowlers, irrespective of what impressions they give in the era of batting dominance.

Edited December 12, 2016 by express bowling

[sandeep]

@narenpande1  I'm done discussing this topic with you - you can stick to your confirmation bias and make convoluted cherrypicking arguments with subjective interpretation and ad hominem BS.  Not interested in a "tu tu mein mein" with one-eyed folks.  

 

Not once in this entire thread have I made a claim that Tendy was perfect and flawless - I'll stick to my opinion and belief that he was one of a kind, and worthy of respect from those who like cricket.  I'm done wasting my breath on deaf ears.

[narenpande1]

4 minutes ago, sandeep said:

@narenpande1  I'm done discussing this topic with you - you can stick to your confirmation bias and make convoluted cherrypicking arguments with subjective interpretation and ad hominem BS.  Not interested in a "tu tu mein mein" with one-eyed folks.  

 

Not once in this entire thread have I made a claim that Tendy was perfect and flawless - I'll stick to my opinion and belief that he was one of a kind, and worthy of respect from those who like cricket.  I'm done wasting my breath on deaf ears.

 

@sandeep

 

And nobody denies that he is a legend, a modern great, and all have acknowledged it.

 

You can't force acceptance about his cult status down other peoples throat and this is what most fair followers of the game keep repeating.

 

People like yourself treat him as beyond compare and think it is outrageous to debate that there can be others who can be better or a lot better than him in aspects of the game - which was what the OP was about.

 

 

[sandeep]

On 12/10/2016 at 1:54 AM, sandeep said:

And everyone's allowed their personal favorites.  No need to force a "God" down someone's throat.  I have no qualms accepting that Tendy for all his quality, didn't always get the job done under pressure.   I will however dispute it if its claimed that he was a choker, or "not a matchwinner" or some other crap like that.  

This is on page 1 of this thread - incidentally in a direct response to one of your posts.  I started off trying to have a reasonable discussion with you - your emotional outbursts and subjective bashing of Tendy has led to this thread turning into what it has.

[narenpande1]

8 minutes ago, sandeep said:

This is on page 1 of this thread - incidentally in a direct response to one of your posts.  I started off trying to have a reasonable discussion with you - your emotional outbursts and subjective bashing of Tendy has led to this thread turning into what it has.

 

And please point where I have ever said that Tendulkar is a choker or not a match winner ..and the all the non sense you are accusing me of ... This is dishonesty and putting words in my mouth. 

 

I merely said On OP, that kohli has raised the bar Tendulkar set with regards to responding to pressure with the way he has handled captaincy and his own batting after assuming charge. Raised the bar with regards to his own personal fitness regimen and raised the bar with regards to a killer instinct to win without regard for personal milestones

 

 

 

[Vijy]

9 hours ago, rkt.india said:

If Pujara had only played FC cricket, even  he could have averaged 70. He was close to that when debuted for India. Even SRT averages very high if you only count FC cricket.

Chepu was averaging in low 60s at his peak. It is almost impossible to average 70 over 200 matches. Merchant also played for a time prior to partition when genuine quicks like Nissar and Amar Singh were around.

[Vijy]

3 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

I have the highest regard for Tendulkar regarding his ability of playing good bowlers on tough pitches. Like...

•  The way he played the attack of McGrath, Lee and Warne in Australia in 1999 , was really commendable.
• His handling of Warne in India was just wow.
• The way he played Murali and Saqlain  in Asia.
• Lee, Johnson in Australia in 2008 ...hot pace.
• Steyn, Morkel in 2010.

 

But, many of the attacks you have pointed out either did not all play together against us, or were not at their full ability while doing so or were not superior to current day attacks.

 

• Tendulkar never played Ambrose at his peak and played Walsh at his peak only once, that too in India,  when the rest of the attack was very weak. In 1997, both Walsh and Abmrose were in their mid-30s.
• He never played Waqar at his peak. In 1989, Waqar was a rookie too like him.  In 1999, both Wasim and Waqar had lost pace.
• Donald, Pollock, Devilliers and Ntini never played together against us.  Generally, it was just two or even one of them playing against us like.......  Donald  or     Donald, Pollock, or     Donald, Devilliers, or      Pollock, Ntini.....and that was by no stretch of imagination superior to the combined attack of Steyn, Morkel and Philander in 2013 / 14 tour....mostly inferior.
• Can't remember when he scored against Caddick, Fraser and Gough playing together.
• Many of the attacks he faced were quite ordinary too.
• On the one hand you are saying that pitches have become  easier now but, on the other hand, you are saying that  bowlers having similar averages now and in the '90s are of similar quality.  It is a given that IF  pitches are easier then, generally,  bowlers will have higher averages.

 

You are also undermining current day attacks

• Steyn, Morkel and Philander bowling together in SA  in 2013-14  is easily the toughest SA attack I have seen.
• Johnson, Harris, Hazlewood, Lyon in Australia in 1914-15 was a tough attack.
• Boult, Southee, Wagner in NZ are very good.
• Anderson, Broad, Woakes in England are a handful
• Swann, Panesar in  India in 2012.
• Starc, Hazlewood, Pattinson, Lyon  is a very good attack

 

 IF the pitches are flatter now (  not that easy to conclude )   then many of these attacks are even better than earlier years as they have excellent stats.

 

 

 

 

 

An excellent post, but I'd like to post an earlier reply of mine on this thread:

 

 

What can be said is that very few batsmen avg >50 in the 1990s, and many more did so in the 2000s. This is a clear fact - an article from Cricinfo with the stats exists. Of course, you can read and interpret these findings in three different ways (i) Pitches became more batting-friendly (or bats or regulations) (ii) Bowlers declined in quality (iii) Batsmanship has improved.

 

Now, one could argue for (iii) reasonably (and maybe you'd go with this). I'm inclined to think it's more (i) and (ii), with some degree of (iii) thrown in.

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, Vijy said:

An excellent post, but I'd like to post an earlier reply of mine on this thread:

 

 

What can be said is that very few batsmen avg >50 in the 1990s, and many more did so in the 2000s. This is a clear fact - an article from Cricinfo with the stats exists. Of course, you can read and interpret these findings in three different ways (i) Pitches became more batting-friendly (or bats or regulations) (ii) Bowlers declined in quality (iii) Batsmanship has improved.

 

Now, one could argue for (iii) reasonably (and maybe you'd go with this). I'm inclined to think it's more (i) and (ii), with some degree of (iii) thrown in.

 

(iii)   Batting has improved in terms of stroke-making ability and feeling less fear due to better protective gears.  It has deteriorated in terms of ability to stay at the crease.  It is possible that many batsmen are scoring more runs with shorter stays at the crease and  that may have been one of the factors contributed to higher batting averages nowadays.

 

(i)   Test pitches in some venues may have eased a bit but there are some helpful pitches too. These days, pitches are more as per strategy of the home team ( as far as possible based on soil type )  and varies  based on the touring team's strengths and weaknesses.  Previously, pitches were more venue specific in terms of character.

 

(ii)  With batting averages improving sharply and batsmen playing much more strokes and batting without physical fear.... it would be difficult for even high quality bowlers to look as dominant  or as fearsome as they did in the '80s and '90s.   I has posted a stat above, which shows that lots of top bowlers in the last 5 years are averaging 20 to 28, despite batsmen averaging higher...it shows that they have been effective despite looking less dominant due the factors i mentioned.

 

A final verdict, or an attempt to arrive at that , needs to be given in the light of the above points.  

 

I feel that cricket has just become different and it would be unfair to call  the top batsmen or the top bowlers of different eras either superior or inferior.

 

The biggest factor that separates the champions from the others is their mindset....that is their will to succeed, adapt their game to suit the times and do what is required to succeed.  I feel that Tendulkar would have done what is required if he had been a batter starting his career in the '70s  or  2010s.     Same apples to Kohli, Richards, Kapil and the other champs.

Edited December 12, 2016 by express bowling

[mishra]

2 hours ago, express bowling said:

I am not going by stats only but my experience of watching hundreds of test matches.  In the '80s and early '90s, most batsmen were accumulators, barring Richards, Tendulkar, Lara, Greenidge, Botham, Kapil etc.  This made it easier for bowlers to dominate them as not everyone had the technique of a SMG . With lower quality protective gears, risk of physical injury was greater in that era too and this made the batsmen fearful of physical injury. All this resulted in  and bowlers looking  superb visually.

 

Nowadays, because of much better bats and the influence of T20s, a high %  of batters are always looking to attack the bowlers. Excellent protective gears have made them fearless.  Kohli was stepping out to hit 148 k bouncers from Johnson on bouncy Australian tracks, pulling them for 4s and then flexing his biceps...this attitude was largely missing earlier barring a couple of West Indian greats and a couple of all-rounders like Kapil.  This is making even exceptional bowlers look a little less great than they actually are.

 

The bowling stats in test matches in the last 5 years just show the effectiveness of the bowlers, irrespective of what impressions they give in the era of batting dominance.

Infact to me it proves exactly opposite. T20 has got poorer players in playing 11. Look at Pujara. Just a series back, i was finding difficult on icf to justify his place. So t20 bully batters get more chances then accumulators.

 

Now just To proove my point during Tendulkars era, we had so many bottlecaps bowlers with layer of sunscreen lotion. IMO till Lala was caught on camera chewing the ball, there was always some serious level of ball tampering. Infact till few years back English came with a novel idea of thowing the ball on ground among them in pretext of passin on one side to tamper it. They became number 1 test side and retained it some time.

 

On speed front, we had three 100+ mile bowler Akhtar Lee and Tait playing at the same time. Now how many are left since Yuvi paaji hit six sixes off Barbie. Zero. Absolutely zero. And we will not have any more. Because its not rewarded anymore. Bhumrah type ones will be bought by Ambanis and 10 million dollars.

No bottle caps, No cream, no roughing up of seam, no bitting of ball, no speed. How the hell you expect pace bowler to dominate.

 

Again on Sachin's test match scoring front, I will give you a example. Take current series. IMO, Root is just as good as Kohli.  Infact he has better average too. And I still maintain that view .Throw in support of batsmen like Cook, Butler, Bairstow you have a formidable batting lineup. But he is struggling. Infact last inning he played, it was one of the ugliest I have seen from him. Why, because English are expecting to win the game through Cooks battting. But it aint happening. On the other hand, You have Kohli piling up runs and runs. Cos he has bowler who will take 20 wickets.

Edited December 12, 2016 by mishra

[express bowling]

23 minutes ago, mishra said:

Infact to me it proves exactly opposite. T20 has got poorer players in playing 11. Look at Pujara. Just a series back, i was finding difficult on icf to justify his place. So t20 bully batters get more chances then accumulators.

Batting averages of batsmen have gone up sharply in the last 10 years compared to the '90s.  Whatever type of batsmen they are bringing now,  they are scoring  lots of runs.

 

23 minutes ago, mishra said:

 

Now just To proove my point during Tendulkars era, we had so many bottlecaps bowlers with layer of sunscreen lotion. IMO till Lala was caught on camera chewing the ball, there was always some serious level of ball tampering. Infact till few years back English came with a novel idea of thowing the ball on ground among them in pretext of passin on one side to tamper it. They became number 1 test side and retained it some time.

That only shows that some pacers of that era looked better due to much wider scope of tampering the ball.

 

23 minutes ago, mishra said:

 

On speed front, we had three 100+ mile bowler Akhtar Lee and Tait playing at the same time. Now how many are left since Yuvi paaji hit six sixes off Barbie. Zero. Absolutely zero. And we will not have any more. Because its not rewarded anymore. Bhumrah type ones will be bought by Ambanis and 10 million dollars.

No bottle caps, No cream, no roughing up of seam, no bitting of ball, no speed. How the hell you expect pace bowler to dominate.

I don't expect them to dominate...and that is my point.  They have been effective but have not dominated as much  due to the reasons I  pointed out earlier and the reason you point out now.  

 

It  does not show them in poor light as bowlers.

 

p.s - We are talking about test matches and Bumrah or Tait are / were not test bowlers.  We may not have 145 to 155 k pacers like Lee and Akhtar now but lots of 140 to 150 k pacers.

23 minutes ago, mishra said:

 

Again on Sachin's test match scoring front, I will give you a example. Take current series. IMO, Root is just as good as Kohli.  Infact he has better average too. And I still maintain that view .Throw in support of batsmen like Cook, Butler, Bairstow you have a formidable batting lineup. But he is struggling. Infact last inning he played, it was one of the ugliest I have seen from him. Why, because English are expecting to win the game through Cooks battting. But it aint happening. On the other hand, You have Kohli piling up runs and runs. Cos he has bowler who will take 20 wickets.

How is the point we are discussing.... how good are the bowlers now....relate to this part ?

 

 

 

[mishra]

1 hour ago, express bowling said:

Batting averages of batsmen have gone up sharply in the last 10 years compared to the '90s.  Whatever type of batsmen they are bringing now,  they are scoring  lots of runs.

 

That only shows that some pacers of that era looked better due to much wider scope of tampering the ball.

 

I don't expect them to dominate...and that is my point.  They have been effective but have not dominated as much  due to the reasons I  pointed out earlier and the reason you point out now.  

 

It  does not show them in poor light as bowlers.

 

p.s - We are talking about test matches and Bumrah or Tait are / were not test bowlers.  We may not have 145 to 155 k pacers like Lee and Akhtar now but lots of 140 to 150 k pacers.

How is the point we are discussing.... how good are the bowlers now....relate to this part ?

 

 

 

If Ajmal was allowed to way he bowled, He would have become a legend. At the end, we have to assume that all those uncaught ones are honest bowlers. So, they were better because they could get wickets in all conditions.

And pace wise they were better too. Cranking at 100 mph. As i said, we will not see 3 players together at 100mph. So despite all the murky things, at the end the bowlers are as good as deliveries they bowled.

 

 I am just supporting to Muloghonto point i.e. in general, Tendulkar faced better attack. In all certainty, the bottlecaps would have been saved in pocket to be used as soon as Tendulkar started walking towards the crease. And bottlecap phenomenon only arrived when we won first  world Cup.

 

Edited December 12, 2016 by mishra

[velu]

People are forgetting that when sachin started playing there were no video analysis..

It will take time to figure out the weaknesses of the batsmen..

Even dadas leg side and short stuff weaknesses got exposed after 6 or 7 years

But kohli need to overcome this

[express bowling]

32 minutes ago, mishra said:

If Ajmal was allowed to way he bowled, He would have become a legend. At the end, we have to assume that all those uncaught ones are honest bowlers. So, they were better because they could get wickets in all conditions.

And pace wise they were better too. Cranking at 100 mph. As i said, we will not see 3 players together at 100mph. So despite all the murky things, at the end the bowlers are as good as deliveries they bowled.

 

 I am just supporting to Muloghonto point i.e. in general, Tendulkar faced better attack. In all certainty, the bottlecaps would have been saved in pocket to be used as soon as Tendulkar started walking towards the crease. And bottlecap phenomenon only arrived when we won first  world Cup.

 

There are lots of ATG and future ATG bowlers now too.   You are not getting the full effect  as many have not finished their careers.  Looking back after 15 years, people will feel differently.

 

Starc has hit 100 mph too and Johnson has hit 98 mph.   Tait was not a test bowler.

[mishra]

^ Agree. Starc Aamir Ashwin are only one in Kohli era tough cookie. Johnson Steyn have allready played moSt cricket. Think if they were occasionally using creams and coke caps , Specially when Kohli /root came to bat.

[mishra]

26 minutes ago, velu said:

People are forgetting that when sachin started playing there were no video analysis..

It will take time to figure out the weaknesses of the batsmen..

Even dadas leg side and short stuff weaknesses got exposed after 6 or 7 years

But kohli need to overcome this

Dada was caught very early. Akhtar  and likes used to punch him into ribs even in odi game . Bit analysis effect is true. Just today i saw video of how Kohli corrected his issue on 4th -5th stump

[vvvslaxman]

Kohli's quest for win surpasses anyone i have seen from India.  You have to look no further than this innings where India had to reach the target within certain number of overs.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMgdJRxrLy8

[Lannister]

Both are very different kind of players who played under different circumstances. The Kohli's success should also attribute to his team players, and the facilities a modern cricketer enjoys now is of a higher standards. If Tendulkar had to play in this era, I am sure he would've still surpassed Kohli's skills as a batsman. But as a leader, Kohli is right up there with some of the great captains who's ever played, he may even surpass them given the time. 

I am still at an awe that we were able to find this gem of a player after Sachin's retirement. 

[kosingh]

Trolling Tendulkar fans is kind of fun .