How Long Should The Rope Be For Kohli If He Does Not Win WC

[putrevus]

7 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

India had 2 years to experiment. They announced way too early Rayudu will be the man lol HE got kicked out at the last moment. It took them that long to realize he was crap. Shankar just had to do slightly better than Rayudu. HE could play. I don't say he is the reason. He was okay in the matches he played. But he is still not a proper batsman.

Gill and Shaw came very late into picture they were too young to be tried. If Dhawan did not get hurt.India had a great top three plus Rahul.Would it have pushed them over the line against NZ is the question.

[Ankit_sharma03]

11 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

India has one weakness which is what happens when the top order collapses. Happened not once but twice n a row in crunch match. INdia had no one to fall back on.

every team has a weakness unless ur Aus or WI of past. Even when we won in 2007,2011, 2013 those team had weakness of their own 

Our biggest problem is kohli the captain who negative energy doesnt allow players to excel in such situation

11 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Back in 2000 India had Sehwag, Raina, Yuvraj, Tendulkar who could bowl a few overs so they could afford to play 4 bowlers.

That also cant happen now due to rules of 4 fielder outside and 2 new balls, the minute these 2 rules use of part timer around the world went down

11 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Some of them like Bhajji could even bat a bit. Now batsmen don't bowl. bowlers don't bat. 

Dhoni had a similar team in 2013 infact worse ill say coz he didnt have bumrah, hardik or a Rohit and kohli at peak of their game

Pak won despite their weakness in 2017 CT

NZ was in final when their top 3 batsman cant stand against our top 3 batsman, neither they had spinners like kuclha or someone as good as bumrah . 

11 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Every match has to be a near perfect match to win a tournament. Any slip up like our bowlers not coming off, our top order not coming off will lead to undesirable result. You cannot have a perfect match in every game. There will be odd slip ups. Do we have a team that can handle unexpected scenarios? Nope. We don't. World cup winners generally have that ability.  

most teams will have some weakness take even IPL, its not what u have its what u do with ur avl resources and our respurces are not even bad as many teams. Take any team and they ll have their problems but in the end one will win 

[SK_IH]

10 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Sarfraz won CT , is he better captain than Kohli? Winning ICC tournament needs team balance and player stepping up in crunch matches.All batsmen including Kohli failed to step up in crunch matches but I don't think there was anything wrong in his captaincy.The only thing I blame Kohli is keeping Dhoni in the team but that guy seems to be above everyone.

 

He avgs 80 as a captain and has highest winning % .He is leading a very unbalanced team and yet has led to finals and semis final of only two major tournaments he has captained the team.

 

He cannot manufacature talent.

No but in the history books we will read Sarfaraz has won something worthwhile and Kohli has not. And you conveniently use this argument for Virat about imbalance/lack of talent (most of which is self-inflicted) but have the gall of using Sarfaraz as example to prove your point who was leading an absolute mediocre bunch of players(Sarfaraz himself was ordinary) in that tournament, ranked 7th they were I think. Sarfaraz's truimph that day had as much to do with Virat's frailties as much to his own abilities.

It's these qualities which differentiate a good captain from an ordinary one, who can work around such liabilities and win. MSD did multiple times with a limited bowling attack, young batting lineup. 

It's very easy brush aside his consistent failures as captain by invoking other issues.

 

PS: He cannot manufacture talent but he has shown the penchant for systematically destroying them.

Edited December 13, 2019 by SK_IH

[vvvslaxman]

5 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Gill and Shaw came very late into picture they were too young to be tried. If Dhawan did not get hurt.India had a great top three plus Rahul.Would it have pushed them over the line against NZ is the question.

Not late. They announced themselves right after under-19 world cup. We had 2 full years to groom them instead of playing that useless Rayudu.

[vvvslaxman]

8 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Nobody discarded Gill but world cup was few months away and you want a guy who played two matches to be in the squad? if he flopped people will jump and say see Gill should have never played in world cup instead of an experienced batsman.Gill is going nowhere he will play next world cup 2019 was too soon for him in this team.

You sound like fans were complaining about this after world cup. People have been complaining about this for 3 years. If anything CT final thought it was this. Lack of strong middle order. Indian management absolutely did nothing other than recycling tried and tested failures. They recalled Gambhir, Yuvraj what not. It was an utter farce.  Not many were exactly cheerleading for their selection policies.

[raki05]

5 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

every team has a weakness unless ur Aus or WI of past. Even when we won in 2007,2011, 2013 those team had weakness of their own 

Our biggest problem is kohli the captain who negative energy doesnt allow players to excel in such situation

That also cant happen now due to rules of 4 fielder outside and 2 new balls, the minute these 2 rules use of part timer around the world went down

Dhoni had a similar team in 2013 infact worse ill say coz he didnt have bumrah, hardik or a Rohit and kohli at peak of their game

Pak won despite their weakness in 2017 CT

NZ was in final when their top 3 batsman cant stand against our top 3 batsman, neither they had spinners like kuclha or someone as good as bumrah . 

most teams will have some weakness take even IPL, its not what u have its what u do with ur avl resources and our respurces are not even bad as many teams. Take any team and they ll have their problems but in the end one will win 

Excellent points....as if the team who won in past were all great team...what laughable is mediocre team like pak have defeated us in final of world tournaments. Even their baap Dada who were so much better never had this reward against mediocre Indian team.

[vvvslaxman]

7 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

every team has a weakness unless ur Aus or WI of past. Even when we won in 2007,2011, 2013 those team had weakness of their own 

Our biggest problem is kohli the captain who negative energy doesnt allow players to excel in such situation

That also cant happen now due to rules of 4 fielder outside and 2 new balls, the minute these 2 rules use of part timer around the world went down

Dhoni had a similar team in 2013 infact worse ill say coz he didnt have bumrah, hardik or a Rohit and kohli at peak of their game

Pak won despite their weakness in 2017 CT

NZ was in final when their top 3 batsman cant stand against our top 3 batsman, neither they had spinners like kuclha or someone as good as bumrah . 

most teams will have some weakness take even IPL, its not what u have its what u do with ur avl resources and our respurces are not even bad as many teams. Take any team and they ll have their problems but in the end one will win 

But there is no telling when your weakness will be exposed. If you are really good enough it may never get exposed. In CT final on a flat deck India opted to field first. Secondly even before the match general Pakistan mood was "knock off top 3 we can easily win". It happened. You could see it from mile away. Knock top 3 you can win. That was the case then. That is the case now. In 2nd T20. Middle order had some overs to bat. Couldn't go anywhere. Scratching around and making 18 runs in the last 3 overs.

[Ankit_sharma03]

19 minutes ago, raki05 said:

Why can't these budhhas try youngsters at top and come themselves down the order .

Coz no team does that, u bat ur best player in top 3. No matter how good gill or shaw wud be they wud be not as good as kohli or rohit at this stage. Ppl said the same about rohit before Wc and he smahed 5 -100s there

 

Ponting didnt go down when clarke was coming new

Aus wasted smith in Wc at 4 in most games

Neither wud aussies now move finch, warner 

19 minutes ago, raki05 said:

We can accommodate one of Gill/Shaw at 1 down and Kohli can move to 4 similarly one of Mayank or Rahul can open along with Dhwan in odi and Rohit can move down.

Dhawan place is up for grab now 

Kohli wont be as effective at 4 and we have tried that before 2015 Wc and in Ind-SA 2016 odi series. 

19 minutes ago, raki05 said:

How can they expect youngsters to perform down the order when they open in domestic.

They have to wait and we have to try youngsters for avl spot

19 minutes ago, raki05 said:

Why can't these experience idiot take the critical responsiblity of middle order like Ganguly, Tendulkar or dravid did in past.

Ganguly 1st made tendulkar change his spot when he was unhappy , ganguly had to do it himself

tendulkar was forced twice , he didnt do it by his wish and both times he was unhappy which ended up putting him backk at top

Dravid cud bat anywere and so did dhoni so they both did it but Rohit is a middle order failure and kohli isnt as effective 

 

19 minutes ago, raki05 said:

Bloddy these one dimensional player themselves not change their position even in meaningless tournaments and blame youngsters for knockout failure .

They can be rested but their position shudnt be touched unless they loose it 

[vvvslaxman]

3 minutes ago, raki05 said:

Excellent points....as if the team who won in past were all great team...what laughable is mediocre team like pak have defeated us in final of world tournaments. Even their baap Dada who were so much better never had this reward against mediocre Indian team.

CT is a lucky tournament. You just have to win 2 or 3 matches in a row which they did. Beat SL,SA,England, India in a row. We lost to Srilanka and Pakistan. 

[putrevus]

Just now, SK_IH said:

No but in the history books we will read Sarfaraz has won something worthwhile and Kohli has not. And you conveniently use this argument for Virat about imbalance/lack of talent (most of which is self-inflicted) but have the gall of using Sarfaraz as example to prove your point who was leading an absolute mediocre bunch of players(Sarfaraz himself was ordinary) in that tournament, ranked 7th they were I think and lead for most of his career. Sarfaraz's truimph that day had as much to do with Virat's frailties as much to his own abilities.

It's these qualities which differentiate a good captain from an ordinary one, who can work around such liabilities and win. MSD did multiple times with a limited bowling attack, young batting lineup. 

It's very easy brush aside his consistent failures as captain by invoking other issues.

Nobody is denying Pakistan and Sarfraz won CT with very mediocre talent.India won 1983 world cup under Kapil Dev beating WI which was bigger upset than CT 2017, did that make Kapil Dev better captain than Clive. Upsets happen in sport.One or two matches is not an indication of captaincy.

 

Does Kohli need to win a world title to be mentioned as one of great captain , yes he absolutely does need to win.Why are we talking as if he has captained and failed to win multiple world cups.

 

If Kohli the batsman is kicked out for failing in 3  big spots then Kohli the captain should go to until then Kohli is the captain.He is best batsman in the team and you just hope he shows up as batsman in crunch situations. 

[putrevus]

6 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

You sound like fans were complaining about this after world cup. People have been complaining about this for 3 years. If anything CT final thought it was this. Lack of strong middle order. Indian management absolutely did nothing other than recycling tried and tested failures. They recalled Gambhir, Yuvraj what not. It was an utter farce.  Not many were exactly cheerleading for their selection policies.

Complaing for three years or since 2015 does it matter?? How were they finding batsmen who are not existing? They recalled those for one reason they did not find any other talent.

[raki05]

2 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Coz no team does that, u bat ur best player in top 3. No matter how good gill or shaw wud be they wud be not as good as kohli or rohit at this stage. Ppl said the same about rohit before Wc and he smahed 5 -100s there

 

Ponting didnt go down when clarke was coming new

Aus wasted smith in Wc at 4 in most games

Neither wud aussies now move finch, warner 

Dhawan place is up for grab now 

Kohli wont be as effective at 4 and we have tried that before 2015 Wc and in Ind-SA 2016 odi series. 

They have to wait and we have to try youngsters for avl spot

Ganguly 1st made tendulkar change his spot when he was unhappy , ganguly had to do it himself

tendulkar was forced twice , he didnt do it by his wish and both times he was unhappy which ended up putting him backk at top

Dravid cud bat anywere and so did dhoni so they both did it but Rohit is a middle order failure and kohli isnt as effective 

 

They can be rested but their position shudnt be touched unless they loose it 

Look man you can't develop youngsters if you eat up 30-35 overs even in meaningless tournaments all I am trying to say. Either top 3 as a senior should take challenging responsibility or sit out in meaningless so that youngsters can get enough opportunity to sign and once they are confident they can play anywhere based on role given.

[raki05]

5 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

CT is a lucky tournament. You just have to win 2 or 3 matches in a row which they did. Beat SL,SA,England, India in a row. We lost to Srilanka and Pakistan. 

And what about loosing in wc. It's not about format of tournament it's about the way we are loosing, in both tournament we lost coz we have choker top order and Kohli leadership who still chosed  yuvraj and dhoni post CT loss and kept playing useless rayadu, Shankar and Karthik for 2 years and on top of it his rcb like captaincy. So the loss in CT has nothing to do with format of tournament.

[SK_IH]

2 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Nobody is denying Pakistan and Sarfraz won CT with very mediocre talent.India won 1983 world cup under Kapil Dev beating WI which was bigger upset than CT 2017, did that make Kapil Dev better captain than Clive. Upsets happen in sport.One or two matches is not an indication of captaincy.

 

Does Kohli need to win a world title to be mentioned as one of great captain , yes he absolutely does need to win.Why are we talking as if he has captained and failed to win multiple world cups.

 

If Kohli the batsman is kicked out for failing in 3  big spots then Kohli the captain should go to until then Kohli is the captain.He is best batsman in the team and you just hope he shows up as batsman in crunch situations. 

I would have said no, if his captaincy skills were on par with Dravid or a Mark Taylor. But his captaincy is driven more by leading from the front as batsman rather than any strategic nous or tactics, team building etc. And it's not purely on world events or ICC events, it's about test series away as well. He has failed multiple times in SA and Eng. The series win Aus has a massive caveat attached which you know.

That's why I hope he has a great NZ tour and he comes out of it victorious. A failure there will just fortify perceptions about his captaincy skills.

[maniac]

53 minutes ago, putrevus said:

That is utter nonsense, if he does not have talent to win, it is not captain's fault.he is doing great as captain.Winning any tournament needs luck and he needs to contribute as a batsman in crunch matches that is more important than his captaincy.

Selecting to bat 2nd in CT2017 final.

 

Kumble had  disassociated with the team by that point and hinted he would have batted first.

 

Sending MSD at 7 in WC semis when his tuk-tuk could have been a lot more useful at the top in that game.

 

Apparently Bangar made that call who has more authority than Shastri and Kohli himself.

 

Not sticking up for no.4 batsmen

 

Iyer-Unfairly dropped early on, Rayudu-unfairly picked but dropped at the last hour when everyone felt he booked his slot, DK-picked as no.4 when he was doing fine, pushed to be the finisher and then dropped, Raina-picked for 1 series and dropped.

 

obviously MSK and others need to get some blame for the picks but Kohli is the one who backs them.

 

Even in Aus in the nth hour he got it right and the final scoreline reads 2-1 when it should have been 4-0 but win is a win.

 

You can clearly spot the megalomania. The guy is a machine, and individually a genius but he is not a leader because he is neither capable of team building or out of the box solutions or keeping calm in panic all qualities of a leader.

 

 

[putrevus]

2 hours ago, SK_IH said:

I would have said no, if his captaincy skills were on par with Dravid or a Mark Taylor. But his captaincy is driven more by leading from the front as batsman rather than any strategic nous or tactics, team building etc. And it's not purely on world events or ICC events, it's about test series away as well. He has failed multiple times in SA and Eng. The series win Aus has a massive caveat attached which you know.

That's why I hope he has a great NZ tour and he comes out of it victorious. A failure there will just fortify perceptions about his captaincy skills.

What team building is he supposed to do, he remade the the spinning combination after CT 2017 and brought in spin twins and remade whole fast bowling unit in tests.He took over the test captaincy when team was at its nadir and made them into best team in world as of today.

 

Just because you want the team to win in SA and England as a fan and are disappointed by  those losses, it does not make Kohli a bad captain.WI lost 5-1 in 1975 in Australia then added couple more fast bowlers and Australia lost some of its talent then WI started its run to glory.

 

India needs talent too to win.Opener like Rahul who was played all tests in all those series flopped.He has made this test team into fighting unit which has competed in all conditions.When was the last time any Indian team did that? did it win no, it won in Australia without Smith and Warner.

 

Let us see what it does in NZ.

Edited December 13, 2019 by putrevus

[Suhaan]

1 hour ago, putrevus said:

That is utter nonsense, if he does not have talent to win, it is not captain's fault.he is doing great as captain.Winning any tournament needs luck and he needs to contribute as a batsman in crunch matches that is more important than his captaincy.

Its not his fault even if he choked as an individual..no?he didn't play shami in overcast conditions,that wasn't a brainfart?

[SK_IH]

36 minutes ago, putrevus said:

What team building is he supposed to do, he remade the the spinning combination after CT 2017 and brought in spin twins and remade whole fast bowling unit in tests.He took over the test captaincy when team was at its nadir and made them into best team in world as of today.

 

Just because you want the team to win in SA and England as a fan and are disappointed by  those losses, it does not make Kohli a bad captain.WI lost 5-1 in 1975 in Australia then added couple more fast bowlers and Australia lost some of its talent then WI started its run to glory.

 

India needs talent too to win too.Opener like Rahul who was played all tests in all those series flopped.He has made this test team into fighting unit which has competed in all conditions.When was the last time any Indian team did that? did it win no, it won in Australia without Smith and Warner.

 

Let us see what it does in NZ.

He made the spin twin post the CT and broke it in the tournament for which he seemed like building it for. That's the fundamental issue with his captaincy, he is too random at times and makes unnecessary tweaks. Classic example is when played Karn ahead of Ashwin in Adelaide just because he was a leggie. These are just random theoretical moves.

Yes he should be credited for encouraging and facilitating a pace bowling culture no doubt but you conveniently put across this point about lack of talent/no openers/imbalance for the losses but all credit to Virat for the fighting spirit lol.If we go down this route even Sachin has a case for being a good captain, he had so much mediocre cricketers around him when was the captain.

You have to win with whatever you have at your disposal. 

[vvvslaxman]

1 hour ago, raki05 said:

And what about loosing in wc. It's not about format of tournament it's about the way we are loosing, in both tournament we lost coz we have choker top order and Kohli leadership who still chosed  yuvraj and dhoni post CT loss and kept playing useless rayadu, Shankar and Karthik for 2 years and on top of it his rcb like captaincy. So the loss in CT has nothing to do with format of tournament.

Which World Cup winning team has never suffered top order collapse. Ina big game you should always defend not chase. 1996 couldn’t chase, 2003 couldn’t chase 2017 couldn’t chase 2015 couldn’t chase 2019 couldn’t chase 1983 defended 2007 defended 2013 defended

Edited December 13, 2019 by vvvslaxman

[kruiser]

2 hours ago, Khota said:

I say he should be fired the next day from captaincy. Winning a WC is the real thing. Everything else is meaningless. It is like Olympic Gold Medal. You can win multiple races all day long but when your time comes to deliver it is the track at olympics that matters.

Yes. And Make DK the captain. That will be the so Owsome!