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Khota

How Long Should The Rope Be For Kohli If He Does Not Win WC

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46 minutes ago, Khota said:

Talent is not the issue. There is plenty of talent to win anything right now. Utilizing talent is and that is on him.

Where is that talent? It is not on him at all.It is Kohli the batsman who failed Kohli the captain.If you don't want Kohli in the team as you think he is loser and will never win his team with his bat, we can have that discussion.

Edited by putrevus

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In the past 20 years, any captain who has failed in a ICC CT or WC in a 1-2 yr period has got sacked/lost captaincy  soon 

Match Fixer mafia Azhar - lost in98 CT, 99 WC, 2000 fixing scandal, career ended

Ganguly - lost  2003 WC, 2004 CT, lost captaincy in 2005

Dravid - 2006 CT, 2007 WC, lost captaincy in Sep 2007

Dhoni - Lost 2014 T20 WC, 2015 WC, 2016 T20 WC, quit captaincy in 2016

 

Kohli should join his predecessors soon

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6 hours ago, raki05 said:

Look man you can't develop youngsters if you eat up 30-35 overs even in meaningless tournaments all I am trying to say. Either top 3 as a senior should take challenging responsibility or sit out in meaningless so that youngsters can get enough opportunity to sign and once they are confident they can play anywhere based on role given.

totally agreed

if half the time was wasted on wrong players like rayudu, yuvi, dK

other half was wasted on boosting personal stats of top 3 which cud have been used to give youngsters chances

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2 hours ago, raki05 said:

 Similar example we have where we have chased like wc 11 final 2015 qf.... 2017 sf. Problem with Kohli is not only limited to collapse or choking. His captaincy has major issue.

we chased against Bangaldesh lol it hardly matters with them. Also 2015 QF we defended vs BD. We chased only against Ireland, UAE, Zimboks,WI. 2011 needed two high pressure knocks to win it after a top order collapse. Gambhi/Dhoni.  By and large it is hard to chase without some kind of outstanding performance. Especially chasing 329 in Australia vs Australia in a semi final? They will fail 9 out of 10 times. 

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3 hours ago, sarchasm said:

I call him the LOSER, Lord Of Soft, Easy Runs.

That's too harsh...he has gutsed it out and delivered some great knocks in tough conditions in SA, Eng, AUS. In ODIs he has had some high profile failures, but T20s he has again delivered under pressure (he wld hv won us T20 WC 2016 if not for Yuvi brainfade).

 

But he just doesn't have the captaincy nous and calm to win major silverware - have more hopes from our test team at the moment, but there too Kohli's impetuosity and general unwillingness to groom young match winners will cost us at critical moments i fear.

Edited by Cricwala

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4 hours ago, putrevus said:

Where is that talent? It is not on him at all.It is Kohli the batsman who failed Kohli the captain.If you don't want Kohli in the team as you think he is loser and will never win his team with his bat, we can have that discussion.

Kohli as a bat is not being discussed here. Kohli as a leader is an issue and as a tactician is a bigger issue. After spending so much time on Jadhav and Raydu dropping them for 3 wkt kprs was beyond dumb. Bowling is real good and  3wkt kprs competing for one spot and 7 bats competing for 5 spots. talent is not the issue at all.

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@putrevus You cannot manipulate every fact to satisfy your agenda. So, Kuldeep was dropped because he was struggling? The process to separate the spin duo for Jadeja started in late 2018 against WI, it was another unnecessary random move, which continued till the WC. The only series they played together most of the games in that duration was against NZ when both overwhelmed the kiwis. It was a classic case of fixing something which was not broken, he should have backed the spin duo which was one main reasons of India's success post CT.

Secondly, you say you judge a captain by seeing how competitive his team is but most judge by how many his team wins. Also you need to understand there is no point boasting about being competitive against teams who were beatable. Both teams (Eng and SA) since 2018 have been beatable at home and were there for the taking but messed up. In the end the scoreline against that ordinary English test side of 4-1 was an embarrassing outcome, far from being enjoyed as competitive.

Edited by SK_IH

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Kohli the captain must override his own innate desire to bat at number 3.We have too many talented batsmen who can bat in top 3 but none have the game to do what Yuvi used to do at number 4.In this scenario Kohli must take it upon himself to be the batsman the team needs him to be.

Ganguly,Tendulkar,Gambhir have all dropped batting positions for the teams sake,infact this should have happened in the WC itself

Edited by GautiMaan

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1 hour ago, SK_IH said:

@putrevus You cannot manipulate every fact to satisfy your agenda. So, Kuldeep was dropped because he was struggling? The process to separate the spin duo for Jadeja started in late 2018 against WI, it was another unnecessary random move, which continued till the WC. The only series they played together most of the games in that duration was against NZ when both overwhelmed the kiwis. It was a classic case of fixing something which was not broken, he should have backed the spin duo which was one main reasons of India's success post CT.

Secondly, you say you judge a captain by seeing how competitive his team is but most judge by how many his team wins. Also you need to understand there is no point boasting about being competitive against teams who were beatable. Both teams (Eng and SA) since 2018 have been beatable at home and were there for the taking but messed up. In the end the scoreline against that ordinary English test side of 4-1 was an embarrassing outcome, far from being enjoyed as competitive.

I find it amusing how defeats in S.A. and England where we couldn't even keep the series alive until the last Test are spun as "close" or "competitive" :giggle:.

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1 hour ago, Khota said:

Who is watching tests in 2019, I don't know of anyone. T20 is the way to go.

Twenty20 is masala cricket. Red ball cricket is more pure. If you wanna see the most elegant shots you gotta watch Test cricket. There is nothing more wonderful than seeing a textbook cover drive in the greatest format of them all. 

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17 hours ago, raki05 said:

Why can't these budhhas try youngsters at top and come themselves down the order . We can accommodate one of Gill/Shaw at 1 down and Kohli can move to 4 similarly one of Mayank or Rahul can open along with Dhwan in odi and Rohit can move down. How can they expect youngsters to perform down the order when they open in domestic. Why can't these experience idiot take the critical responsiblity of middle order like Ganguly, Tendulkar or dravid did in past. Bloddy these one dimensional player themselves not change their position even in meaningless tournaments and blame youngsters for knockout failure .

At-least for 10-15 games, oldies have to rein in their greed and give batting time to youngsters. They can go back to their usual positions after 1-2 youngsters have a few good knocks to their name and gain confidence. 

Edited by nevada

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50 minutes ago, jf1gp_1 said:

he shouldnt just be removed from captaincy he should be dropped from squad altogether. After all losing t20 wc means he cant win test championship. Dropping him makes most sense cause whats the point of his runs when they can win us anything.

Nah, that would be an extreme step. To give credit where it is due, Kohli's batting usually gets us till the semifinals and without him, we might not even get there. If removed from captaincy, he will have a point to prove and might actually win us knockout games. 

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9 hours ago, Cricwala said:

he wld hv won us T20 WC 2016 if not for Yuvi brainfade

WT2016 was not on Yuvraj & tbf 2014 loss cannot be blamed just on him, Dhoni failed to score a single boundary that game & Rahane didn't do much better opening. Also SL for once bowled really well against us, sometimes you also concede that the opposition deserved it.

17 minutes ago, nevada said:

To give credit where it is due, Kohli's batting usually gets us till the semifinals and without him, we might not even get there.

Yeah well that's debatable, we're always a top 3 team in ICC tournament. Got to winning the 2011 WC without him doing much, Jadeja & gang were doing great in 2013 CT, 2015 WC again our bowlers outdid our batting, if it weren't for his fake aggression & running counter to Kumble we would've pummeled Pak in 2017 CT finals, same goes for 2019 WC where Dhawan+Sharma & the bowling did really well. In all these ODI tournaments I do not see one exceptional performance from him like SRT in 1996, 2003 or Dravid in 1999 not even close. He played safe & that's it, the real match winners were Sharma, Dhawan, Shami, Bumrah etc.

 

Now one could argue he played safe because of our middle order mess but then who's fault was it :whack3:

Edited by R!TTER

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1 hour ago, jf1gp_1 said:

he shouldnt just be removed from captaincy he should be dropped from squad altogether. After all losing t20 wc means he cant win test championship. Dropping him makes most sense cause whats the point of his runs when they can win us anything.

Not winning the T20 WC will further expose his ability as a captain to lead his side to win trophies. And those losses are largely down to his own style of leadership esp. spotting and backing young talent 

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13 hours ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

In the past 20 years, any captain who has failed in a ICC CT or WC in a 1-2 yr period has got sacked/lost captaincy  soon 

Match Fixer mafia Azhar - lost in98 CT, 99 WC, 2000 fixing scandal, career ended

Ganguly - lost  2003 WC, 2004 CT, lost captaincy in 2005

Dravid - 2006 CT, 2007 WC, lost captaincy in Sep 2007

Dhoni - Lost 2014 T20 WC, 2015 WC, 2016 T20 WC, quit captaincy in 2016

 

Kohli should join his predecessors soon

He has already lost test series in SA & England. What if he loses in NZ as well?

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40 minutes ago, Stan AF said:

He has already lost test series in SA & England. What if he loses in NZ as well?

But hey he defeated a deflated aus team and was being competitive in 4-1 defeat against eng. I mean I fail to understand where is the competition when score line says 4-1. And against SA it was 2-0 until 3rd test. 

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Even RCB lacks talent lol

 

This guy cant win anything to save his ass. But yeah we dont have talent to win matches. 

 

And in world cup kohli as batsmen did not do anything. Except for AFG match it was Rohit sharma & bowlers show.

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7 hours ago, Shaz1 said:

Twenty20 is masala cricket. Red ball cricket is more pure. If you wanna see the most elegant shots you gotta watch Test cricket. There is nothing more wonderful than seeing a textbook cover drive in the greatest format of them all. 

I have watched enough test crcket to know that I don't want to watch it anymore. Test cricket is the legacy of England when brown man would do their work and they had 5 days to play. Noone has that kind of time anymore. T20 is the right format where every run counts and every single saved has a meaning. 

 

In 2020 it will be T20.

Now go listen to this song by Bob Dylan.

The Times They Are A-Changin'
Come gather 'round, people
Wherever you roam
And admit that the waters
Around you have grown
And accept it that soon
You'll be drenched to the bone
If your time to you is worth savin'
And you better start swimmin'
Or you'll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin'
Come writers and critics
Who prophesize with your pen
And keep your eyes wide
The chance won't come again
And don't speak too soon
For the wheel's still in spin
And there's no tellin' who
That it's namin'
For the loser now
Will be later to win
For the times they are a-changin'
Come senators, congressmen
Please heed the call
Don't stand in the doorway
Don't block up the hall
For he that gets hurt
Will be he who has stalled
The battle outside ragin'
Will soon shake your windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'
Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is rapidly agin'
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'
The line it is drawn
The curse it is cast
The slow one now
Will later be fast
As the present now
Will later be past
The order is rapidly fadin'
And the first one now
Will later be last
For the times they are a-changin'

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12 hours ago, SK_IH said:

@putrevus You cannot manipulate every fact to satisfy your agenda. So, Kuldeep was dropped because he was struggling? The process to separate the spin duo for Jadeja started in late 2018 against WI, it was another unnecessary random move, which continued till the WC. The only series they played together most of the games in that duration was against NZ when both overwhelmed the kiwis. It was a classic case of fixing something which was not broken, he should have backed the spin duo which was one main reasons of India's success post CT.

Secondly, you say you judge a captain by seeing how competitive his team is but most judge by how many his team wins. Also you need to understand there is no point boasting about being competitive against teams who were beatable. Both teams (Eng and SA) since 2018 have been beatable at home and were there for the taking but messed up. In the end the scoreline against that ordinary English test side of 4-1 was an embarrassing outcome, far from being enjoyed as competitive.

I am not manipulating anything, I am just offering my views.Kulcha were broken up to provide the balance in batting .After IPL Kuldeep who was even dropped by his IPL team was still taken to world cup.How did he do in world cup in the matches he played?

 

Who says teams were beatable??? That too when your openers rarely reached double figures in those series. England with Anderson is not an ordinary side in England, was SA series winnable, yes, if any of the batsmen played a knock of lifetime in fourth innings.When his team beat WI for example who blasted England out early in this year , it is dismissed as WI is weak team.

 

Indian team faced same fast bowling attack of Australia which other teams was finiding hard to handle.They added Mayank and dropped Hardik that has made the team more balanced.It takes time to build team and to win a 5 matches away series exteremely hard.

 

It is due to Kohli's captaincy and fighting spirit on field by not letting his teams give up of field and maintaining intensity has made these lost matches/series look winnable.

 

NZ series is a big test for Kohli and his captaincy.

Edited by putrevus

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5 hours ago, -Robin- said:

Even RCB lacks talent lol

 

This guy cant win anything to save his ass. But yeah we dont have talent to win matches. 

 

And in world cup kohli as batsmen did not do anything. Except for AFG match it was Rohit sharma & bowlers show.

Seriously. Given the number of seasons he captained RCB, given the players at his disposal atleast by fluke he should have won one by now. 

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11 hours ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

I find it amusing how defeats in S.A. and England where we couldn't even keep the series alive until the last Test are spun as "close" or "competitive" :giggle:.

Oh really then you must have missed recent Pakistan series or SA series in India or any number of one sided matches which were over on day 1.To win any series you need to able to compete with other team first.

 

Aussies lost in India 1998, 2001 with same margin.But 2001 gave them the confidence that they can beat India in India .Which they did in 2004.They knew they were just unlucky in 2001.To me India did not do much wrong in England and SA other than not having solid openers.If they do the same things again they will win these series.

 

Winning overseas series is a progression , teams need to learn how to win matches and these don't happen overnight just because fans want it.India won home  series against SA in 2015 and 2019 but there is huge difference in those wins.That is the difference Kohli has made to this team and  that is why he is the best captain India ever had,If you don't understand that difference then we are watching matches differently.

 

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8 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Oh really then you must have missed recent Pakistan series or SA series in India or any number of one sided matches which were over on day 1.To win any series you need to able to compete with other team first.

 

Aussies lost in India 1998, 2001 with same margin.But 2001 gave them the confidence that they can beat India in India .Which they did in 2004.They knew they were just unlucky in 2001.To me India did not do much wrong in England and SA other than not having solid openers.If they do the same things again they will win these series.

 

Winning overseas series is a progression , teams need to learn how to win matches and these don't happen overnight just because fans want it.India won home  series against SA in 2015 and 2019 but there is huge difference in those wins.That is the difference Kohli has made to this team and  that is why he is the best captain India ever had,If you don't understand that difference then we are watching matches differently.

 

If going from losing 3-1 under Dhoni to losing 4-1 under Kohli counts as progress we are definitely watching matches differently :winky:.  

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8 minutes ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

If going from losing 3-1 under Dhoni to losing 4-1 under Kohli counts as progress we are definitely watching matches differently :winky:.  

Yes we are watching different matches. So you keep your mantra Kohli stinks going on for next few years .

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11 hours ago, R!TTER said:

WT2016 was not on Yuvraj & tbf 2014 loss cannot be blamed just on him

My bad, i got the two T20 WCs mixed up..it was 2014 when yuvi and others failed to support Kohli. 

 

Kohli should never have been given captaincy, he is an excellent individual player...tbh, i too was so desperate to see the back of Dhoni, that i welcomed transition to Kohli.

 

Shows why having a proper succession plan and grooming right person for captaincy is so crucial, and something only selectors and those close to players can do. I hope we identify the next captain carefully, and we should be open to split captaincy as well. Shreyas, Mayank look best bets for now.

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