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sandeep

Hardik Pandya is a better bowler in Limited Overs than Ben Stokes

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6 minutes ago, velu said:

pandya has got a good quick bouncer ..

problem with him is that he bowls lots of short pitch balls 

Yeah he's a one trick pony with the ball at the moment.  But there's enough raw ability there that he can easily match Stokes bowling output with the white ball.  His bowling stats are far better than Stokes's in T20s.   

 

People mix up formats too much.  Outside of Tests, they are in the same bucket as players.  

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To me, a good all-rounder is someone who would get into the team either as a pure batsman or as a pure bowler and the other discipline is  additional.  Like Sobers, Kapil, Imran, Hadlee, Botham, Pollock, Kallis, Ashwin  etc.

 

Ben Stokes would not get in either the test or ODI teams either as a pure batsman or as a pure bowler.  He has bad or mediocre averages in everything.

 

He can be used in the team only in combination with another such player like Moin Ali, who is also a bits and pieces utility player.

 

If Moin were a pure bowler, like say Ashley Giles, Stokes at 6 would make the batting weak, as he is not consistent enough for a top order batter.  And he would never make it to the team as a bowling all-rounder.

 

Woakes has the potential to be a proper test all-rounder as he can make it to the team as a pure bowler.

 

 

Edited by express bowling

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Hardik Pandya has  loads of potential as an all-rounder but he needs to play a lot more  FC, List A and T20s.   His game is not fully developed yet.

 

His primary discipline as of now is as a lower-middle order big hitting batsman in ODIs and T20s. I would like him to develop into a decent test quality batsman too.....but that would take quit a bit of time and hard work.

 

 

Edited by express bowling

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Bhai, you cannot go online and order that mythical perfect allrounder who makes the team purely on one side of the ball, from Amazon.  You have to maximize the resources that the team has.  

 

Reality is that Pandya is the best seam-bowling allrounder prospect India has.  We need to groom him, and then use him wisely to the best benefit of the team.  Smart guy that he is, Rahul Dravid has been using him consistently as the 3rd seamer in the 'A' series down under.  And he's done OK.  

 

Next ODI World Cup is in England.  Look at how England are building their team, and their ODI wickets.  We are not going to win with 6+5 in 2019.  We will need Chahal and Pandya to be successful international players with multiple tricks up their sleeve, to be contenders.  

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18 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Bhai, you cannot go online and order that mythical perfect allrounder who makes the team purely on one side of the ball, from Amazon.  You have to maximize the resources that the team has.  

 

 

There have been many many proper all-rounders in ODIs and quite a few in tests, like the ones  I listed.   Nothing mythical about them.

 

Bits and pieces players never last long in a team.

 

Pandya needs to make one discipline his strong suit.

 

 

 

Edited by express bowling

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5 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

There have been many many proper all-rounders in ODIs and quite a few in tests, like the one I listed.   Nothing mythical about them.

 

Bits and pieces players never last long in a team.

 

Pandya needs to make one discipline his strong suit.

 

Name the Indian allrounders please.  Outside of Kapil Dev, the best we could manage was that imported Trinidadian Robin Singh.  Unless you count Laxmi Ratan Shukla - the great brown lukdya from Bengal who never was.

 

 

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14 hours ago, sandeep said:

Name the Indian allrounders please.  Outside of Kapil Dev, the best we could manage was that imported Trinidadian Robin Singh.  Unless you count Laxmi Ratan Shukla - the great brown lukdya from Bengal who never was.

 

 

Mankad, Kapil, Shastri,  Prabhakar, Irfan Pathan, Ashwin

 

Name the  bits and pieces  cricketers who have lasted in cricket  ?

 

 

Edited by express bowling

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10 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Mankad, Kapil, Shastri,  Prabhakar, Ashwin

 

Name the  bits and pieces  cricketers who have lasted in cricket  ?

 

 

Shastri early in his career was a bowler who batted and slowly mutated into the opposite.  Prabhakar an allrounder is a massive reach.  He was never good enough with the bat.  Ash is not a white ball allrounder, no matter how you slice it.  Mankad is 5 generations ago.  

 

None of these guys apart from Kapil or Mankad would meet your self-proscribed standards for allrounders at various points of their international careers.  

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14 hours ago, sandeep said:

Shastri early in his career was a bowler who batted and slowly mutated into the opposite.  Prabhakar an allrounder is a massive reach.  He was never good enough with the bat.  Ash is not a white ball allrounder, no matter how you slice it.  Mankad is 5 generations ago.  

 

None of these guys apart from Kapil or Mankad would meet your self-proscribed standards for allrounders at various points of their international careers.  

Ravi Shastri became a proper batsman, who opened quite a bit in test matches,  and was good at handling pace and bounce in away tours like the West Indies.  He also bowled regularly.  That definitely makes him an all-rounder.  His specialty was batting for a long time against genuine pace and taking the shine off the ball.

 

Manoj Prabhakar was a front-line bowler, considered as a great talent of swing bowling. He also averages 32  as a batsman in test matches and has opened the inning too. 

 

Ashwin is a test all-rounder,,,which is far more difficult to find. He may also become a better ODI batsman after his new-found confidence in the WI.

 

I said that a proper all-rounder is one who can make it to the team as either a batsman or a bowler and is decent in the other discipline too.

All these 6  names match that criterion.

 

My point is very simple....if a player is neither a proper batsman  nor a proper bowler, like Binny.......he won't last long.  Nor does he help the team for any length of time.

 

England has always been enamored by  bits and pieces cricketers but how many ODI World Cups have they won  ?  0    ...... How many big tournaments have they won ?   Much less than us.

 

In ODIs, it is better to have proper batsmen who can bowl a bit...like Yuvraj, Sehwag, Ganguly, Amarnath  etc.

 

 

Edited by express bowling

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Name the Indian allrounders please.  Outside of Kapil Dev, the best we could manage was that imported Trinidadian Robin Singh.  Unless you count Laxmi Ratan Shukla - the great brown lukdya from Bengal who never was.

 

 

Mankad, Kapil, Shastri,  Prabhakar, Ashwin

 

Name the  bits and pieces  cricketers who have lasted in cricket  ?

 

 

Irfan Khan Pathan

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Disagree. The main problem with Pandya is he's too predictable. He doesn't vary his pace or his length. Almost all his deliveries are short of length and most of the batsmen can park themselves on backfoot waiting for the predictable short delivery. Stokes on the other hand varies his pace and length. Once Pandya starts hitting that fuller length more frequently he has the potential to be a very useful allrounder for India, especially away from the subcontinent.

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1 hour ago, Ultimate_Game said:

Disagree. The main problem with Pandya is he's too predictable. He doesn't vary his pace or his length. Almost all his deliveries are short of length and most of the batsmen can park themselves on backfoot waiting for the predictable short delivery. Stokes on the other hand varies his pace and length. Once Pandya starts hitting that fuller length more frequently he has the potential to be a very useful allrounder for India, especially away from the subcontinent.

This is where he needs a support system and coaching help to fine tune his bowling. Raw talent and potential is there but it needs polishing.

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Pandya is a batting all-rounder and I want him to develop his batting further in FC and List A games.  I remember a BPXI game when he fought it out and scored almost 50 against SA and that is no mean feat against Steyn, Morkel and Philander.

 

He needs to be able to get in the team as a batsman who can bowl regularly.   He has the ability  but needs a lot of net and match practice.

 

I am really hoping that he does well as a batsman in the 4 day " Unofficial tests " in this A tour.

 

 

Edited by express bowling

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4 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Pandya is a batting all-rounder and I want him to develop his batting further in FC and List A games.  I remember a BPXI game when he fought it out against SA and that is no mean feat against Steyn, Morkel and Philander.

 

He needs to be able to get in the team as a batsman who can bowl regularly.   He has the ability  but needs a lot of net and match practice.

 

I am really hoping that he does well as a batsman in the 4 day " Unofficial tests " in this A tour.

 

 

i agree he needs to be a batting all rounder ,but my concern is once he bats well  his bowling will go down ,and we dont have any other options apart from him. if he could become like a ashwin we will have so much depth.

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Ben stokes is the best allrounder at present..Pandya is no way near test material.Stokes has been trundling post injury but still a better bowler who can make the ball talk in test matches.

Pandya on the other hand can't bowl 4 overs properly.

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I would have liked Pandya in the Duleep Trophy as he would have been able to bowl against top batsman & bat against top bowlers in the domestic cricket.

This Ranji season for Baroda will define his future path .I would like him to at least score 600+ runs  & take 30+ wickets in Ranji Trophy this year.

I think his bowling is under rated & he has knack of taking wickets.With more experience & under able guidance of Rahul Dravid he will further develop his skills.

As he was dropped for the Windies T20 series,it will serve him a good wake up call in future & he will know he has to work hard to cement his place in the side & break in to loi as early as possible

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16 hours ago, express bowling said:

To me, a good all-rounder is someone who would get into the team either as a pure batsman or as a pure bowler and the other discipline is  additional.  Like Sobers, Kapil, Imran, Hadlee, Botham, Pollock, Kallis, Ashwin  etc.

 

Ben Stokes would not get in either the test or ODI teams either as a pure batsman or as a pure bowler.  He has bad or mediocre averages in everything.

 

He can be used in the team only in combination with another such player like Moin Ali, who is also a bits and pieces utility player.

 

If Moin were a pure bowler, like say Ashley Giles, Stokes at 6 would make the batting weak, as he is not consistent enough for a top order batter.  And he would never make it to the team as a bowling all-rounder.

 

Woakes has the potential to be a proper test all-rounder as he can make it to the team as a pure bowler.

 

 

To me, a good all-rounder is someone who would get into the team either as a pure batsman or as a pure bowler and the other discipline is  additional.  Like Sobers, Kapil, Imran, Hadlee, Botham, Pollock, Kallis, Ashwin  etc.

Or, be pretty good at both, but not necessarily good enough to make it on the basis of one skill. Like Keith Miller was. I don't think there are many examples of those type of allrounder. I don't think you'd need another all rounder to make Stokes presence work, he can bat at 6 if the keeper is a good bat. In other words there might be better batsmen or better bowlers but Stokes value as an allrounder means he is invaluable. If he was Indian we'd love him in the test team for sure.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Sooda said:

To me, a good all-rounder is someone who would get into the team either as a pure batsman or as a pure bowler and the other discipline is  additional.  Like Sobers, Kapil, Imran, Hadlee, Botham, Pollock, Kallis, Ashwin  etc.

Or, be pretty good at both, but not necessarily good enough to make it on the basis of one skill. Like Keith Miller was. I don't think there are many examples of those type of allrounder. I don't think you'd need another all rounder to make Stokes presence work, he can bat at 6 if the keeper is a good bat. In other words there might be better batsmen or better bowlers but Stokes value as an allrounder means he is invaluable. If he was Indian we'd love him in the test team for sure.

 

 

 

I have never seen  Keith Miller play .....but he has taken 170 test wickets at an average of 22.97.....  That makes him not only a front-line bowler but a superb one at that.

 

I cannot remember that many cricketers,  who have played successfully for any length of time and could not be classified as either a specialist batsman or a specialist bowler or a specialist keeper.  Ability in the other discipline has been an additional quality.

 

Stokes is being played based on his potential just like we are playing Rohit Sharma.  With the bat, he averages 33 in 25 tests and  22 in 42 ODIs.  While bowling he has neither been a wicket-taker, nor has he been an economical bowler in any of the formats.  

 

Maybe he will realize his potential some day and become a 40+ average batsman in tests and a 35+ average batsman in ODIs....if so he will stay, otherwise he won't for a long time.

 

 

 

Edited by express bowling

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7 hours ago, tweaker said:

I would have liked Pandya in the Duleep Trophy as he would have been able to bowl against top batsman & bat against top bowlers in the domestic cricket.

This Ranji season for Baroda will define his future path .I would like him to at least score 600+ runs  & take 30+ wickets in Ranji Trophy this year.

I think his bowling is under rated & he has knack of taking wickets.With more experience & under able guidance of Rahul Dravid he will further develop his skills.

As he was dropped for the Windies T20 series,it will serve him a good wake up call in future & he will know he has to work hard to cement his place in the side & break in to loi as early as possible

Better that gujju lukdya is touring Australia instead of Duleep trophy.  It will be a better learning experience for him.  As you said, he will develop under Dravid's guidance.  

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Is this a joke???

 

well Pandya is good and great start to his career and hopefully beginning of a bright future.

 

but comparing him to guy who has multiple 5 wicket hauls across tests and Odis...a proven match winner and a potential future great really?

 

Stokes is a batsman who can bowl and boy can he bat and also bowl like that.

 

stop this ridiculous comparison.

 

hope Pandya overtakes stokes woakes etc in the coming days though

Edited by maniac

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5 hours ago, Texan said:

To be fair, Stokes bowling stats in LOIs are not that good. 

Ben Stokes surely has a lot of potential but none of his stats anywhere have indication of consistency so far.  Low batting averages in every format although he bats primarily at no.6, the position of a proper batsman and high bowling averages in every format although he bowls 50% of the time in swing-friendly England.  Now, we can see that change for the better in the next year or two, as Stokes matures as a player.  But, the English are already dubbing him as an ATG and that is not the case yet.  There is many a slip between the cup and the lip.

 

Batting and fielding averages
  Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 4s 6s Ct St
Tests 25 43 0 1429 258 33.23 2015 70.91 3 6 197 25 16 0
ODIs 47 41 4 1034 101 27.94 1095 94.42 1 6 87 28 21 0
T20Is 18 15 4 146 31 13.27 102 143.13 0 0 14 6 7 0
First-class 98 160 8 5207 258 34.25     11 25     55 0
List A 112 100 13 2838 164 32.62 2882 98.47 5 12 254 85 47 0
Twenty20 74 65 11 1226 77 22.70 910 134.72 0 5 96 56 30 0
Bowling averages
  Mat Inns Balls Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 4w 5w 10
Tests 25 44 3866 2255 60 6/36 8/161 37.58 3.49 64.4 2 2 0
ODIs 47 37 1472 1473 39 5/61 5/61 37.76 6.00 37.7 1 1 0
T20Is 18 14 256 395 8 3/26 3/26 49.37 9.25 32.0 0 0 0
First-class 98 151 11261 6721 221 7/67 10/121 30.41 3.58 50.9 11 4 1
List A 112 77 2908 2721 96 5/61 5/61 28.34 5.61 30.2 3 1 0
Twenty20 74 46 746 1075 30 3/26 3/26 35.83 8.64 24.8 0 0 0

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/england/content/player/311158.html

 

 

 

Edited by express bowling

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Pandya has started his bowling journey in odi on a high note.He has good chance of maintaining that as he will be opening the bowling ,as first choice pacers are rested & Bumrah is mostly used as 1st change bowler.

 

He has bowled well & has not bowled wides & noballs,has not drifted toward legs & tried to bowl in the channel without experimenting too much.

 

He has a huge advantage as Dhoni has backed him .

 

With experience he will bowl well & when in good rhythm he can easily touch 150 kmph.

 

 

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On 8/31/2016 at 1:48 AM, express bowling said:

Mankad, Kapil, Shastri,  Prabhakar, Irfan Pathan, Ashwin

 

Name the  bits and pieces  cricketers who have lasted in cricket  ?

 

 

May I dare to add Ajit Agarkar in the list? I sincerely feel he isnt given as much due as he deserves. Had he been utilized better, he would have been a great asset

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On 8/31/2016 at 9:14 AM, express bowling said:

 

I have never seen  Keith Miller play .....but he has taken 170 test wickets at an average of 22.97.....  That makes him not only a front-line bowler but a superb one at that.

 

I cannot remember that many cricketers,  who have played successfully for any length of time and could not be classified as either a specialist batsman or a specialist bowler or a specialist keeper.  Ability in the other discipline has been an additional quality.

 

Stokes is being played based on his potential just like we are playing Rohit Sharma.  With the bat, he averages 33 in 25 tests and  22 in 42 ODIs.  While bowling he has neither been a wicket-taker, nor has he been an economical bowler in any of the formats.  

 

Maybe he will realize his potential some day and become a 40+ average batsman in tests and a 35+ average batsman in ODIs....if so he will stay, otherwise he won't for a long time.

 

 

 

Stokes has a long way to go before he can be rated as the best.....Yeah his average is not settign the world on fire....but what he has going for him in his favor is that he has proved that on his day he can be a match winner.....not a potential match winner but someone who has actually won games for his team with both bat and ball.

 

Don't have to go too far in history,he was the man of the series in the recently concluded ODI series against Bangladesh who are not a joke anymore especially in ODI's and especially at home conditions..

 

Pandya has hardly played at the international level and has not done anything...absolute zero apart from one or to utility performances in the side.

 

Not apples to apples.

 

I don't know why Stokes bowling and batting averages keep getting brought up.....he has immense potential and has showed glimpses of match winning ability already and what he can do when he plays according to it

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16 hours ago, maniac said:

Is this a joke???

 

well Pandya is good and great start to his career and hopefully beginning of a bright future.

 

but comparing him to guy who has multiple 5 wicket hauls across tests and Odis...a proven match winner and a potential future great really?

 

Stokes is a batsman who can bowl and boy can he bat and also bowl like that.

 

stop this ridiculous comparison.

 

hope Pandya overtakes stokes woakes etc in the coming days though

This from a guy that declared Ben Duckett a future ATG after his one ODI 50 against the bowling paaver-house that is Bangladesh (without Mustafiz, and without a hope).  

 

The only thing ridiculous is you anointing Duckett and Stokes as Future "ATG".  

 

Read my first post again and comprehend.  I said that Pandya is and can be a better limited overs bowler than Stokes.  Tests don't have limited overs last I checked.  So stop harping on Stokes' achievements in Tests.  2nd, Since you bring stats into the picture - Check and compare their T20 stats, a format where both have played a few games.  

 

In ODIs, Stokes averages 23 with the bat and 44 with the ball away from home.  I think Hardik Pandya will match or exceed this numbers easily.  Even in medium-pace friendly England home conditions, "stokesy" averages more than 33 with the ball, I'm willing to bet that Pandya, given a decent sample set - (i.e. 7+ ODIs in England) will match or do better than that with ball in hand.  

 

(@fineleg  - You should read this too, so that you can open your eyes and see the facts a bit. Rather than being blinded by ghar ki murgi daal barabar syndrome.  )

 

Pandya is skinny, and tries too hard to be cool, and is an Indian pace-bowling allrounder.  These things are affecting his perception.  He has the bowling and batting tools to be a very effective LOI cricketer, maybe even tests - but that depends on the continuation of his learning curve and his ability to stay injury free.   

 

 

Edited by sandeep
add response to finey's mention

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7 hours ago, tweaker said:

Pandya has started his bowling journey in odi on a high note.He has good chance of maintaining that as he will be opening the bowling ,as first choice pacers are rested & Bumrah is mostly used as 1st change bowler.

 

He has bowled well & has not bowled wides & noballs,has not drifted toward legs & tried to bowl in the channel without experimenting too much.

 

He has a huge advantage as Dhoni has backed him .

 

With experience he will bowl well & when in good rhythm he can easily touch 150 kmph.

 

 

Tweaker bhai, expected a bit more judiciousness from you.  150?  That's really pipe dreams, heck I don't think Hardik on a ganja-high would even expect himself to bowl at those speeds.  If you want to indulge in a bit of wishful thinking about his bowling, I would wish for Zaheer Khan to teach him his killer knuckle-ball - gujju lukdya needs to add some variety to his repertoire.

 

As long as he's 135+ consistently and in the right areas, with the ability to slip a quicker one - that's enough.  He will have his bad days with the ball.  On unhelpful pitches, given his lack of variety, he's gonna run into the Warner/De Kock/Kusal Perera/ etc and get smacked for big runs, but so will other bowlers.  The biggest thing he has going for himself is that you don't need him to bowl a full spell - if he can give 5-8 overs and play as a front-line batsman, then the team is that much stronger for it.  

 

It remains to be seen whether he can take his slugging abilities and actually play quality ODI innings against top teams, but I'm hoping he can. In my opinion, he's not going to have sustainable success as a bowler who can bat - but as a #6 bat who can bowl.  We have not seen enough from him with the bat yet, and he hasn't had opportunities.  But let's hope for the best on the batting front.  

 

 

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51 minutes ago, sandeep said:

This from a guy that declared Ben Duckett a future ATG after his one ODI 50 against the bowling paaver-house that is Bangladesh (without Mustafiz, and without a hope).  

 

The only thing ridiculous is you anointing Duckett and Stokes as Future "ATG".  

 

Read my first post again and comprehend.  I said that Pandya is and can be a better limited overs bowler than Stokes.  Tests don't have limited overs last I checked.  So stop harping on Stokes' achievements in Tests.  2nd, Since you bring stats into the picture - Check and compare their T20 stats, a format where both have played a few games.  

 

In ODIs, Stokes averages 23 with the bat and 44 with the ball away from home.  I think Hardik Pandya will match or exceed this numbers easily.  Even in medium-pace friendly England home conditions, "stokesy" averages more than 33 with the ball, I'm willing to bet that Pandya, given a decent sample set - (i.e. 7+ ODIs in England) will match or do better than that with ball in hand.  

 

(@fineleg  - You should read this too, so that you can open your eyes and see the facts a bit. Rather than being blinded by ghar ki murgi daal barabar syndrome.  )

 

Pandya is skinny, and tries too hard to be cool, and is an Indian pace-bowling allrounder.  These things are affecting his perception.  He has the bowling and batting tools to be a very effective LOI cricketer, maybe even tests - but that depends on the continuation of his learning curve and his ability to stay injury free.   

 

 

Stokes just won a man of the series award...T20 bowling stats really? what next dot balls per over or some other random stats like that?

 

Stokes is inconsistent but "Has won Matches for his side" be it with the bat or with the ball.

 

As far as Duckett goes a young rookie making his debut has 2 out of 3 50's in alien conditions with some audacious strokeplay....I just said he has immense potential......I did not say Ben Duckett can be a greater LOI batsman than say Ajinkya Rahane.

 

Pandya has had an impressive debut that's about it....stop comparing him with proven material.

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Here is how I rate players

 

Players with X factor-The Rohit Sharmas of the world.....they can hit God Zone or in Video game terms Turbo Mode where they just become unstoppable....They will make what was deemed impossible look like a cakewalk like hitting 264 all alone or 16 6's in a match.....When they reach the god zone game is over in a session or in 30 minutes or less.

AB Devillers or even Ben Stokes falls into this category as well.

 

Players with IT Factor-Likes of Kohli or Rahane the test batsman....smoothest transition from domestics to internationals....they won't miss a beat..they show that they belong from the word go......consistency is what makes them matchwinners.....they will start and get the job done by the end of the match.

Ben Duckett recently has shown this quality....other similar players who I have noticed have the IT factor recently are KL Rahul

 

Players with Utility factor-There is a place for these players in the X1....likes of Vijay,Moeen Ali,Nathan Lyon,Ravindra Jadeja etc fall into this category.....These are players who will not win games on their own but their contribution is absolutely must for the match winners-Players with X and IT factor to do their thing.

Apples to Apples Moeen Ali or Jadeja may not be the best spinners in their respective countries but they are right about there and their batting in Ali's case or Fielding in Jadeja's case makes them rise above the ranks....similarly in a pace attack like Aussies where the fast bowlers are match winners you need a Lyon to do his thing and hold one end up when the pitch has assistance.

Pandya,Vijay and Rayudu are 2 examples of these kind of players...They will play efficiently around match winners but won't win you games singlehandedly.

Edited by maniac

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4 minutes ago, maniac said:

Stokes just won a man of the series award...T20 bowling stats really? what next dot balls per over or some other random stats like that?

 

Stokes is inconsistent but "Has won Matches for his side" be it with the bat or with the ball.

 

As far as Duckett goes a young rookie making his debut has 2 out of 3 50's in alien conditions with some audacious strokeplay....I just said he has immense potential......I did not say Ben Duckett can be a greater LOI batsman than say Ajinkya Rahane.

 

Pandya has had an impressive debut that's about it....stop comparing him with proven material.

This thread is about comparing them as LOI Bowlers.  Stop confusing yourself by bringing in tests, where Hardik hasn't had opportunities, or batting which we aren't talking about at the moment - and again, where Pandya hasn't had a chance to bat yet in ODIs.  

 

Btw, Stokes' bowling in the Bangladesh series - 3 matches 16 overs 2 wickets at 42 runs each.  Economy above 5.   He won the MoS for his batting, not his trundler cannon foddery bowling.  

 

Get it through your Rohit Sharma obsessed head - Ben Stokes is a proven ORDINARY bowler in LOI cricket - ODIs and T20s.  He bowls 5-odd overs and picks up an odd wicket here and there at around 40 RPW.  Hardik Pandya has outbowled him in much more batsman friendly conditions with the white-ball thus far, and is very likely to continue doing so.    

 

Banjo, just because he wears POMMIE jersey, doesn't automatically make him Flintoff or the next Botham.   

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6 minutes ago, sandeep said:

This thread is about comparing them as LOI Bowlers.  Stop confusing yourself by bringing in tests, where Hardik hasn't had opportunities, or batting which we aren't talking about at the moment - and again, where Pandya hasn't had a chance to bat yet in ODIs.  

 

Btw, Stokes' bowling in the Bangladesh series - 3 matches 16 overs 2 wickets at 42 runs each.  Economy above 5.   He won the MoS for his batting, not his trundler cannon foddery bowling.  

 

Get it through your Rohit Sharma obsessed head - Ben Stokes is a proven ORDINARY bowler in LOI cricket - ODIs and T20s.  He bowls 5-odd overs and picks up an odd wicket here and there at around 40 RPW.  Hardik Pandya has outbowled him in much more batsman friendly conditions with the white-ball thus far, and is very likely to continue doing so.    

 

Banjo, just because he wears POMMIE jersey, doesn't automatically make him Flintoff or the next Botham.   

What does Pommie Jersey or white skin have to do with anything Lol.

 

So while at it let us also say that Dinda is a better bowler than Jacques Kallis

 

Dina 9 T20I's bowling average 14.41 and S/R of 10.5

 

Kallis T20I bowling average of 28.00 and S/R of 23.00

 

Also Kallis has only 12 wickets in 25 games...Dina has 17 in 9:hatsoff:

 

Kallis has 1/2 a wicket per match where as Dinada has 2 wickets per match...so Dinda is 4 times the bowler Kallis ever was right?

Edited by maniac

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17 minutes ago, maniac said:

Here is how I rate players

 

Players with X factor-The Rohit Sharmas of the world.....they can hit God Zone or in Video game terms Turbo Mode where they just become unstoppable....They will make what was deemed impossible look like a cakewalk like hitting 264 all alone or 16 6's in a match.....When they reach the god zone game is over in a session or in 30 minutes or less.

AB Devillers or even Ben Stokes falls into this category as well.

 

Players with IT Factor-Likes of Kohli or Rahane the test batsman....smoothest transition from domestics to internationals....they won't miss a beat..they show that they belong from the word go......consistency is what makes them matchwinners.....they will start and get the job done by the end of the match.

Ben Duckett recently has shown this quality....other similar players who I have noticed have the IT factor recently are KL Rahul

 

Players with Utility factor-There is a place for these players in the X1....likes of Vijay,Moeen Ali,Nathan Lyon,Ravindra Jadeja etc fall into this category.....These are players who will not win games on their own but their contribution is absolutely must for the match winners-Players with X and IT factor to do their thing.

Apples to Apples Moeen Ali or Jadeja may not be the best spinners in their respective countries but they are right about there and their batting in Ali's case or Fielding in Jadeja's case makes them rise above the ranks....similarly in a pace attack like Aussies where the fast bowlers are match winners you need a Lyon to do his thing and hold one end up when the pitch has assistance.

Pandya,Vijay and Rayudu are 2 examples of these kind of players...They will play efficiently around match winners but won't win you games singlehandedly.

x factor , IT factor... how do you bring yourself to type such stuff dude.  Its like MTV reality tv etc.

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1 hour ago, maniac said:

Stokes has a long way to go before he can be rated as the best.....Yeah his average is not settign the world on fire....but what he has going for him in his favor is that he has proved that on his day he can be a match winner.....not a potential match winner but someone who has actually won games for his team with both bat and ball.

 

Don't have to go too far in history,he was the man of the series in the recently concluded ODI series against Bangladesh who are not a joke anymore especially in ODI's and especially at home conditions..

 

Pandya has hardly played at the international level and has not done anything...absolute zero apart from one or to utility performances in the side.

 

Not apples to apples.

 

I don't know why Stokes bowling and batting averages keep getting brought up.....he has immense potential and has showed glimpses of match winning ability already and what he can do when he plays according to it

 

Where have I compared Stokes with Pandya in this thread  ?  

 

I discussed both of them separately and discussed about allrounders in general.

 

I have always said that Stokes has potential ...where  have I denied that  ?   

 

But, the English  are  treating him as  an ATG  almost and therein lies the problem....which is why his averages come up.   There should be demarcation about players with potential  and those who have already started to realize that potential by consistent performances all over the  world..  Stokes is no Rahane yet...who is already averaging 51  in test matches   and has scored 100s  and 90s  all over the world in tests.

 

 

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33 minutes ago, maniac said:

Here is how I rate players

 

Players with X factor-The Rohit Sharmas of the world.....they can hit God Zone or in Video game terms Turbo Mode where they just become unstoppable....They will make what was deemed impossible look like a cakewalk like hitting 264 all alone or 16 6's in a match.....When they reach the god zone game is over in a session or in 30 minutes or less.

AB Devillers or even Ben Stokes falls into this category as well.

 

Players with IT Factor-Likes of Kohli or Rahane the test batsman....smoothest transition from domestics to internationals....they won't miss a beat..they show that they belong from the word go......consistency is what makes them matchwinners.....they will start and get the job done by the end of the match.

Ben Duckett recently has shown this quality....other similar players who I have noticed have the IT factor recently are KL Rahul

 

Players with Utility factor-There is a place for these players in the X1....likes of Vijay,Moeen Ali,Nathan Lyon,Ravindra Jadeja etc fall into this category.....These are players who will not win games on their own but their contribution is absolutely must for the match winners-Players with X and IT factor to do their thing.

Apples to Apples Moeen Ali or Jadeja may not be the best spinners in their respective countries but they are right about there and their batting in Ali's case or Fielding in Jadeja's case makes them rise above the ranks....similarly in a pace attack like Aussies where the fast bowlers are match winners you need a Lyon to do his thing and hold one end up when the pitch has assistance.

Pandya,Vijay and Rayudu are 2 examples of these kind of players...They will play efficiently around match winners but won't win you games singlehandedly.

So, Ben Duckett  is in the same category as Kohli and Rahane, but Pandya the bowler is nowhere near Stokes in LOI Cricket.  OK.  And M00li Vijay is just a utility player?  Wow, A legit contender for the best test opener in the world is utility, while Rohit is God-like.  Go back to your Rohit Sharma shrine in the basement.  I'm done wasting my time with you on this topic.  GTFO my thread.  

 

 

Edited by sandeep

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1 hour ago, maniac said:

The Rohit Sharmas of the world.....they can hit God Zone or in Video game terms Turbo Mode where they just become unstoppable....They will make what was deemed impossible look like a cakewalk like hitting 264 all alone or 16 6's in a match.....When they reach the god zone game is over in a session or in 30 minutes or less.

Dairy companies have milked lesser from all their cows than what you have milked from one Rohit Sharma's innings !!

Edited by philcric

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