Amarnath Pilgrims killed in terror attack in Kashmir

[G_B_]

On 7/11/2017 at 3:19 PM, Haarkarjeetgaye said:

BJP kar rahi kadi ninda, ho rahi hai curry ki ninda...56 inch bhool gaye

par nitish ji to unke saath hi jayenge.....

[PBN]

 

[The Outsider]

3 hours ago, PBN said:

I dunno how you can blame the modi government for the attack by the terrorists?  And what exactly is the endgame for Kashmir from India's point of view?  That eventually is the answer to what approach India wants to take. Either India wants to keep Kashmir or let it become a separate country/or join Pakistan.

 

There's two options :

1) current methodology in letting things be (i.e appease the terrorists)

2) take strong action and eradicate terrorism/separatists

 

Option 2 will put India as the focus of the world.  It's a catch 22 situation.  Punjab had a bloody decade where the police could do whatever they wanted.  Huge human rights violations happends, even innocents in the thousands disappeared in 'encounters',etc.  And remember that was the time of no media/social media and even then media was blocked. 

 

What exactly is the purpose of special status like article 370,etc

 

I don't see India isn't going to win back Kashmir with the soft war.  Kashmiris may have condemned this attack on the pilgrims but do they also condemn terrorist attacks on the army/police in the region?  The youth pelt stones in return to the authority.

 

[edit] btw last attack was in 2007 IIRC

 

 

By all accounts the situation in Kashmir has deteriorated since Modi government came to power at the center and two extremist organizations are sharing power at the state level. It's obvious that they are to blame for a mindless shift in policy which has increased radicalization and unrest in the region. Barkha Dutt, Ravish Kumar, or Rana Ayub are not in power making policy decisions. 

 

Option 1 was going pretty well till the present government happened. However, it doesn't mean appeasing terrorists and neither were they being appeased. They were being sidelined because a large population was feeling represented and being heard. It wasn't even solely a UPA policy. Vajpayee had worked on engagement with the population and at the same time work towards formalizing the Line of Control in some shape or measure.

 

There is little doubt that India can hold on to Kashmir militarily. The land, that is. But if the population isn't with you it will lead to constant bloodshed. The revival in Kashmir was real with growth in all sectors and a high participation in the electoral process. Today we are in a situation where 6% votes are being cast and the army is using one of the voters as a human shield.

 

Khalistan and Punjab was a different situation at a different time. I can elaborate more if you want but it's a false equivalence.

 

Article 370 is another bogey of the RW:

 

1. Firstly, there is nothing inherently wrong with Article 370. It gives J&K state more freedom to legislate on laws on subjects which are under central purview in other states. Ideally, every state should have its Article 370. In a diverse country like India, increased centralization leads to less empowerment of local culture and more strife. Settling outsiders in J&K can be done within the purview of Article 370 if the state passes such a law. If they feel integrated and feel they will benefit from outsiders they will pass the law. The Hindu, Hindi, Hindustan narrative of RSS isn't palatable to many in India.

 

2. Two thirds majority in both houses isn't something that will happen for BJP in the near future, at least 2024 if they continue to destroy India brick by brick. 

 

3. There are legal issues with whether Article 370 can be revoked in the first place, without junking the entire constitution. It's because of a constituent assembly that has been dissolved. Sure, the grand plan of RSS is to junk the constitution and this might very well happen through coercion.

 

I double checked and the last attack on Amarnath Yatra was in 2000. Regardless, that's besides the main point I was making which is that the BJP is primarily responsible for the  deterioration of the security situation in Kashmir with their Sanghi ideology and throwing away a consensual strategy which had reaped positive results over the past decade.

 

Forgot to address the stone pelting bit. It's a common thing across India during protests which turn violent. It's a condemnable method of protest but only Kashmiris get labeled as terrorists for doing so.

[FischerTal]

2 hours ago, asterix said:

Reports are that Pakistan is going on a dangerous path by arming the terrorists with chemical weapons!

 

It's like a blackmail. Return to the dialogs else will create havoc. The opposition parties too are waiting eagerly for more bloodshed...

 

Now a days the only option for opposition parties to come back on Modi & BJP is to get Pak & China creating trouble for India...

 

On the other hand hate BJP pussyfooting around corruption cases against Vadra and Gandhis...

 

Sometimes I feel that both BJP & Congress have some sort of understanding...

 

BJP is not a Right Wing party. It's just a Centre Right party. It's unfortunate that they project themselves as RW... also unfortunate that India doesn't has any real RW party...

dada, wait for kovind's election. after that, kashmir problem will be solved, whether bjp has majority in rajya sabha or not. if modi wants to come back to power, he needs to make a historical decision. no point of doing that now.

[FischerTal]

8 hours ago, rkt.india said:

WTF is this Kashmiriyat? What does it even mean? 

killing/ driving out pandits in droves to make kashmir pure while constantly bitching about indian army's "brutality".

Edited July 12, 2017 by FischerTal

[FischerTal]

10 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

So, by keeping nationalists out of Kashmir, Appeasing locals with Article 370, financial aid even for terrorists, no elections with prez rule, bowing down to hurriyat means better results in Kashmir? So we maintain status quo, keep feeding Kashmir and keep out of it, we attain peace there.. What a load of bull..please pass the pipe you have been smoking.

 

At least now, Jammu with a legit govt is doing better with a local govt in place and let Kashmir valley go to dogs. Anyhow there was Army (Prez) rule there since 1989 when insurgency started and pandits were chased out, all in the name of kashmiriyat.

 

Let's have peace in ladakh and jammu and let kashmir valley the miserable place they choose to be in. keep pelting stones and have no food in the plate.

 

basically replace the dialogue of british army officer in lagaan with syed ali shah geelani " tum hamari jhooti ke niche rahega". thats how the jihadis and their supporters view Hindus, especially the nationalists. 

[The Outsider]

3 minutes ago, FischerTal said:

killing/ driving out pandits in droves to make kashmir pure while constantly bitching about indian army's brutality.

Central government was one supported by BJP when this happened. They didn't withdraw support.

 

The governor was appointed by that government  supported by BJP and later joined BJP because he fell out with Congress on his mishandling of the situation in '90.

 

The Home Minister was the person with whom BJP tied a knot of two extremist organizations to form the government currently in power in J&K.

[FischerTal]

2 minutes ago, The Outsider said:

Central government was one supported by BJP when this happened. They didn't withdraw support.

 

The governor was appointed by that government  supported by BJP and later joined BJP because he fell out with Congress on his mishandling of the situation in '90.

 

The Home Minister was the person with whom BJP tied a knot of two extremist organizations to form the government currently in power in J&K.

was modi in power during this time? most people who voted for BJP in 2014 didn't vote for the party, but the person.  i could care less about the rest of BJP with its bumbling jokers like Naidu, Prasad, Javadekar. they are only appointed as yes-men so that no corruption can take place. they are remote-controlled by modi, not the other way around when madamji gave permission to desi robot whether or not he can stand up or sit down. 

 

the same civil servant you speak of was responsible for cleaning the militancy. thats why you hear leftists constantly whining about jagmohan being a human rights violator, genocidal maniac, blah blah blah. 

 

as far as tying up with Mufti Sayeed, its what you do in a democracy. arrive at a consensus so that democratically elected parties can provide administration to the state. governor's rule is the easy way out and exactly what Geelani types want. just the thought of being ruled by right-wing hindus makes their salwar kameez wet. 

[asterix]

par nitish ji to unke saath hi jayenge.....

Will be interesting to see what will Shotgun Sinha do in that scenario...

[Texan]

23 hours ago, sarchasm said:

Here's an honest muslim telling exactly why the Yatris were murdered in the name of allah

Guy with a PhD and pure hatred for non Muslims. Surely must qualify as Prime Ministerial material in Lizard Land. 

[Muloghonto]

9 hours ago, The Outsider said:

Article 370 is another bogey of the RW:

 

1. Firstly, there is nothing inherently wrong with Article 370. It gives J&K state more freedom to legislate on laws on subjects which are under central purview in other states. Ideally, every state should have its Article 370. In a diverse country like India, increased centralization leads to less empowerment of local culture and more strife. Settling outsiders in J&K can be done within the purview of Article 370 if the state passes such a law. If they feel integrated and feel they will benefit from outsiders they will pass the law. The Hindu, Hindi, Hindustan narrative of RSS isn't palatable to many in India.

Complete bakwaas. Everything is wrong with article 370. No modern nation has succeeded by putting roadblocks in free internal movement of its citizens inside its borders. This doesn't just mean tourism, it means purchasing land, living where you want to, work where you want to. Article 370 does precisely that. the main differentiating political unit of mankind today is nation. So it makes no sense whatsoever to have anything more than purely administrative divisions at sub-national levels. Because then you end up with a nation that has less control over its own citmizens and land than its counterparts and are at fundamentally a disadvantage. A citizen of a nation must have equal rights all across the nation. So long as the land is not required for national security or resource extraction, there is simply no basis for a nation to restrict its citizens arbitarily from settling where they feel like. I have just as much rights to buy or sell land in Mumbai, as a Bengali, as a Marathi. And vice versa. same should be the case with Kashmir. 

 

Quote

2. Two thirds majority in both houses isn't something that will happen for BJP in the near future, at least 2024 if they continue to destroy India brick by brick. 

BJP is doing far more for India than Mata-Rome party has EVER done or will do under the Nehru-Gandhi family. And 2/3rd majority for BJP can be a reality within 2020. I am sure you can see the math for it yourself. More than anything, the dynastic nepotism of Congress is a relic of the past and must be opposed in a land with such a long and painful history of divisiveness and blind worship of authority. Last election has clearly shown, as long as a Gandhi is in charge of Congress simply by being a sifarishi Gandhi, people will not vote for such nepotism and BJP will continue to exploit the nepotism angle. 

 

Quote

3. There are legal issues with whether Article 370 can be revoked in the first place, without junking the entire constitution. It's because of a constituent assembly that has been dissolved. Sure, the grand plan of RSS is to junk the constitution and this might very well happen through coercion.

False. What you are parroting, is the opinion of a Kashmiri high court. Not Supreme court. If we cannot change article 370 ever, because the constituent assembly has been dissolved, we can easily argue that the conclusion is against the spirit of article 370 or any agreement, as all one has to do, to keep an agreement in perpetuity, is to dissolve the executor body of the said agreement. 

 

 

Quote

I double checked and the last attack on Amarnath Yatra was in 2000. Regardless, that's besides the main point I was making which is that the BJP is primarily responsible for the  deterioration of the security situation in Kashmir with their Sanghi ideology and throwing away a consensual strategy which had reaped positive results over the past decade.

It is our country. I don't care if its Sanghis talking chaddi nonsense or Mullahs talking primitive arab nonsense. Anytime anyone breaks the law and resorts to violence, the perpetrators are responsible and culpable for not following due process. 10+ years of living in a civilized western country should've taught you that.

 

Quote

 

Forgot to address the stone pelting bit. It's a common thing across India during protests which turn violent. It's a condemnable method of protest but only Kashmiris get labeled as terrorists for doing so.

It is *not* a common thing across India. You just pulled that out of your rear end. the number of stone pelting incidents in Kashmir alone are greater than sum total of stone pelting incidents in rest of the country. Last i checked, Manipuris or Assamese were not stone-pelting when placed under military rule.

 

Edited July 13, 2017 by Muloghonto

[PBN]

 

20 hours ago, The Outsider said:

By all accounts the situation in Kashmir has deteriorated since Modi government came to power at the center and two extremist organizations are sharing power at the state level. It's obvious that they are to blame for a mindless shift in policy which has increased radicalization and unrest in the region. Barkha Dutt, Ravish Kumar, or Rana Ayub are not in power making policy decisions. 

 

Option 1 was going pretty well till the present government happened. However, it doesn't mean appeasing terrorists and neither were they being appeased. They were being sidelined because a large population was feeling represented and being heard. It wasn't even solely a UPA policy. Vajpayee had worked on engagement with the population and at the same time work towards formalizing the Line of Control in some shape or measure.

 

There is little doubt that India can hold on to Kashmir militarily. The land, that is. But if the population isn't with you it will lead to constant bloodshed. The revival in Kashmir was real with growth in all sectors and a high participation in the electoral process. Today we are in a situation where 6% votes are being cast and the army is using one of the voters as a human shield.

 

Article 370 is another bogey of the RW:

 

1. Firstly, there is nothing inherently wrong with Article 370. It gives J&K state more freedom to legislate on laws on subjects which are under central purview in other states. Ideally, every state should have its Article 370. In a diverse country like India, increased centralization leads to less empowerment of local culture and more strife. Settling outsiders in J&K can be done within the purview of Article 370 if the state passes such a law. If they feel integrated and feel they will benefit from outsiders they will pass the law. The Hindu, Hindi, Hindustan narrative of RSS isn't palatable to many in India.

 

2. Two thirds majority in both houses isn't something that will happen for BJP in the near future, at least 2024 if they continue to destroy India brick by brick. 

 

3. There are legal issues with whether Article 370 can be revoked in the first place, without junking the entire constitution. It's because of a constituent assembly that has been dissolved. Sure, the grand plan of RSS is to junk the constitution and this might very well happen through coercion.

 

I double checked and the last attack on Amarnath Yatra was in 2000. Regardless, that's besides the main point I was making which is that the BJP is primarily responsible for the  deterioration of the security situation in Kashmir with their Sanghi ideology and throwing away a consensual strategy which had reaped positive results over the past decade.

 

Forgot to address the stone pelting bit. It's a common thing across India during protests which turn violent. It's a condemnable method of protest but only Kashmiris get labeled as terrorists for doing so.

In the last 3 decades, the status quo in Kashmir hasn't seen much progress.  Same bloodshed repeated over and over with India losing the soft war with the common Kashmiris as well.  There's no way to win the soft war in such scenarios..the resentment will exist for decades to come. 

 

I don't think India minds with the LOC as the official border.  They'll happily take it. It is likely Pakistan wanted more integral parts of Indian Kashmir during the Vajpayee talks.

 

Article 370 alienates both the Kashmiris and the rest especially a state which does not sees itself as a part of India and seeking a separatist state. It further gives Kashmiris the entitlement that they are not like the rest of India You can see how Kashmiris get up uptight whenever there is talk of getting rid of it. Most of them don't even cheer for India in cricket matches.  Which state would willingly get rid of the special status granted to it?  Also, it is not fair on the rest of the states with Kashmir being given preferential treatment.  Why won't the other states also want Article 370 attached to them?  

P.S Ironic that Nehru denied such preferential treatment to Punjab which was promised during partition but then advocated for such preferential status to Kashmir.

 

Personally, I feel the partition of Kashmir already happened like the rest of the India. Pakistan holds of a big chunk and India the rest of Kashmir and adjoining areas.

 

From stone pelting to not supporting India in sports,  Kashmir sees the rest of India as outsiders and has already been alienated for decades.

 

Btw, I saw some mention of 2007 during some tweets.  Also,  did see some links to back up the 2007 incident.

Quote

 

Since the yatra, which is held every year, was targeted by terrorists twice — in 2003 and 2007 — the security agencies are not taking any chances. Top-level discussions at the Centre and state levels are under way to ensure an incident-free pilgrimage.

 

source

2nd source

Edited July 13, 2017 by PBN

[coffee_rules]

Hindutva supremacists is against the very sanatan dharma principles it wants to uphold, so it will not work too much for BJP as well. It is their base, but they are getting voted to power in states and center, mainly because they have unified others outside of Hindutva supremacists to provide them an alternative to congress and the third front

Edited July 16, 2017 by coffee_rules

[Haarkarjeetgaye]

 

Amarnath Yatra bus accident: 16 pilgrims dead, rescue operation underway; PM announces compensation

Amarnath Yatra bus accident: According to the report, 11 pilgrims have lost their lives after the bus fell off the Jammu-Srinagar highway.

By: Express Web Desk | New Delhi | Updated: July 16, 2017 7:53 pm

[Muloghonto]

On 7/15/2017 at 5:37 PM, BeardedAladdin said:

 

The 3 bolded sentences are why i (and many like me) will ALWAYS unconditionally support the BJP.

 

1. I don't want empowerment of 'local culture'. No state deserves absolute autonomy, no state can build autonomy on unchecked freedom of expression or freedom of religion. The central government should set boundaries.

2. That very narrative is what will propel the BJP's rise, and it won't stop anytime soon. India is a hindu nation, hindi should be the unifying language spoken in every single state, and ideally...this country should belong to those of dharmic religions, i.e. no place for inferior religions like Christianity or Islam.

3. No issues with tossing away the secular constitution. Imposition of secularism has proven to be a failure in India. Time to go back to the drawing board, ala Iran in 1979. Let's make this country what it should have been from the very beginning. And it won't occur through coercion, it will be a mandate from the people.

 

Sorry if it all sounds too radical, but this is the India i want. And I'm no gawaar dehati saying this either, so don't bother with the usual name-calling. There's plenty of us in the educated and elite class of this country, we'll back the BJP without a second thought.

 

 

1. And what should it have been ?

INC tried to make India the way it was before the muslims arrived. And it failed. I don't think you want India as it was before Muslims arrived, you want a hindu version of a Sharia-law India.Which India as a whole never was, except for a few small kingdom briefly here and there. 

 

2. Why should the country belong to ANY religion ? Whats so special about half-literate dimwits and their ideology, when my 15 year old kid knows more about practically everything in life, compared to those 'less aware of the universe than dehatis today' fools from thousands of years ago ?

What did Valmiki or Vyasa know that you or I do not know ?! I can think of many things, from philosophy to science to art,  that we know which Valimiki or Vyasa or any such half-literate fool from 2000+ years didn't know...

 

the average person today, is as much superior compared to the 'great sages of ancient world'- be it India, Greek or Chinese- as those great sages were compared to naked hunter-gatherers. Its foolish, mindless ancestor worship to think those unworthy half-wits are our model to follow. they are not. their philosophies and religions are not. they are inferior to the post-Industrial man. So much so, that the level of education and knowledge these fools had, is probably closer to a lab-trained monkey than it is to a modern human who's just finished high school.

 

 

 

Edited July 17, 2017 by Muloghonto

[Muloghonto]

On 7/15/2017 at 8:16 PM, sarchasm said:

Nonsense. India is a civilizationally Hindu country but, and I say this as a Hindi speaker, it's not a Hindi speaking country. The more regional languages the better.

 

Your post suggests that you have wholesale imbibed the monochrome worldview of the very religions you seem to despise.

Welcome to Hinduvta. they are nothing more than jealous Chaddis, wanting to be 'Chaddi-mullahs'. 

this is why RSS is the cancer of Hinduism. Nothing more than islamization of Hinduism under the guise of nationalism. 

[Muloghonto]

15 minutes ago, sarchasm said:

Don't need lessons from you 1) Hindutva 2) laws of aerodynamics where thrust from engines makes vehicles fly

 

You are wrong. As usual. Dismissed.

 

Yes, this is why take-off distances of planes are totally not dependent on thrust. A plane will take-off exactly the same distance off the runway, whether you use a 50 KN, 100KN or 200KN engine.

Lesson learned, mr physics expert!

 

[Muloghonto]

10 minutes ago, sarchasm said:

Are you still embarrassing yourself over this?

 

If thrust causes planes to fly, tell me why my car doesn't take off?

because your car does not have an aerodynamic surface that will cause thrust to translate into low pressure over said aerodynamic surface to generate lift.

But hey, we clearly do not know what we are talking about- since thrust has nothing to do with lift, your MiG-21 will have same takeoff distance, whether it uses a Lyulka power plant or a Rolls royce, whether it is spittng out 50 KN or 500. And clearly, if you cut your engine, you will still get lift and continue to fly. Why people on tourism flights going for ariel photos of Amazon or Himalayas don't cut their engine after takeoff (they are not in a hurry- they are there to loiter and take pictures, so straight line speed is not their want) and just float around slowly on your magical lift, nobody will ever know. 

[Muloghonto]

7 minutes ago, sarchasm said:

But but but, do you want me to quote your posts from that thread - in verbatim - where you said

 

1) Oxygen causes lift

2) and then tried to limit damage by saying, thrust causes lift

 

My car gets oxygen and has ample thrust, it should be flying!

 

Aerodynamic surface

 

That's what I have been trying to school you, you illiterate argumentative tool - that it's the wings and lift induced by them that causes plane to fly. Thrust has sweetfvuckall to do with lift.

1. No, i didn't say O2 causes lift. I said lack of O2 causes lack of thrust...which causes lack of lift...which is pretty basic physics. Which is why airfields in high altitude are way longer than at sea level.

 

2. Your illiterate argumentative foolish, ego-driven a$$ does not realize, even when university website is quoted, that thrust causes lift, the numerical value of lift is calculated from thrust provided. You need wings to cause lift, but with no thrust, all the wings in the world won't make u fly. Which is why when you cut your engine mid air, you don't continue to fly. 

 

3. Yes. Enlighten us some more. thrust has sweet f-all to do with lift. Which is why this website gives us formula of lift as a factor of velocity, which is provided by thrust. 
 

 http://web.mit.edu/16.00/www/aec/flight.html

 

Continue embarrassing yourself,kiddo.

Edited July 17, 2017 by Muloghonto

[Muloghonto]

7 hours ago, sarchasm said:

Have to say, I have not come across many, online or otherwise, who can be as brazenly shameless in the face of such breathtaking ignorance. I mean your head is so far up the sphincter you dont even see how you make arguments on the fly.

 

At this point, I am not even responding to you, only typing it for the others who may read this.

 

According to this guy, loss of oxygen means loss of lift. He then tried to spin it saying he meant thrust, that it is thrust that CAUSES lift.

 

Notice the importance of the word - CAUSE.

 

Then I asked him, why is that our cars do not take off given that they have engines and hence thrust? Finding himself in a knot, he says because of aerodynamic shape, which is exactly I have been trying to school him since the very beginning. That is, lift is a function of the aerodynamic shape and the pressure differential generated by aerofoil.

 

Now this fool cites Bernoulli's equation without the foggiest idea. Bernoulli's equation establishes the factors affecting the lift of an aircraft, and NOT that thrust causes lift. Still makes me chuckle.

 

Here is an exercise in logical deduction for everyone.

 

Premise one: Both cars and aircrafts have engines with thrust.

 

Premise two: Only the aircraft has wings creating pressure differential.

 

Deduction: It's the wings and NOT the thrust that causes lift.

 

Right. Its the wings, not the thrust, that causes lift. Which is why when you are flying, you cut your engine (thrust), you still continue to fly.

We are all wasteful fools to keep the plane engine running when we don't need it to fly.

thank you for such a brilliant lesson.

•