Muloghonto Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 36 minutes ago, surajmal said: As a third language, I'm sure no one will have a problem. Problem lies with Southern govts. Why havent they done anything with regards to spreading their languages? Hence English. A third language that comes bereft of regional politics and irridentism in India today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Outsider Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 13 hours ago, Mariyam said: @The Outsider I agree with the gist of your post. However, when your example of forcing Hindi in Maithili speaking regions of Bihar isn't apt. Most Maithili speakers always spoke some kind of Hindi/Urdu/Hindustani as a second language. Moreover, Maithili and Hindi are mutually intelligible languages. To a Maithili speaker, it wouldn't seem that much of an imposition. Kannada and Hindi are however, not mutually intelligible and people would hence object to Hindi a lot more than they did in Bihar. That's true. I wasn't trying to equate the level of opposition in the two cases though, rather giving an example of how majoritarian agendas can cannibalize local cultures if they are not accorded explicit protections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladybouvier Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 Speaking from a Tamil outlook, English is more familiar and easier to learn for us than Hindi. There is a historical basis for this. North Indian dynasties and kingdoms (be it the Mughals or the Hindu rulers) had never really had a strong foothold in the currently defined Tamil Nadu region. They might've ruled TN in very brief periods from time to time. But, unfortunately for them (and fortunately for us), those brief periods of rule weren't enough to propagate Hindi usage substantially, in our lands. So historically, we'd always been speaking only Tamil, that is until the British arrived. So before the British, there was only Tamil in Tamil Nadu. But ever since the British had imposed English, we became a mix of both Tamil and English. Hindi has never ever been a part of the big picture in Tamil Nadu. Ever since the British arrived, English is and has always been more familiar to us than Hindi, although both are equally foreign languages to us. So when India gained independence, suddenly we were being imposed with yet another language, aka Hindi, which seemed to contradict the idea of independence. When the British imposed English, you could say it was sort of justified as we were a colony of theirs and were ruled by them in an almost autocratic manner. But after 1947, there was supposed freedom, and yet, another language was being thrust on us, almost like we were a colony of the Hindi speakers. You may understand now why secessionist movements such as Dravida Nadu were heightened in the 60s at the peak of Hindi imposition by the Union Government. North Indians insisting that everyone in the country speak Hindi only makes them look like they have some sort of authority over us, which goes against the fundamental ideas on which this country was established. Equality and freedom. We embrace English as a link language for several reasons, one of them being the fact that it's simply more familiar to us than Hindi. All this colonial mindset bullcrap talk needs to be struck down. How is that we have a colonial mindset when we speak English, but somehow, it's totally fine to play cricket, which incidentally is a game introduced to us by the British? The Dark Horse, BeautifulGame, rageaddict and 1 other 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 (edited) ^^ very well put. Just because Hindi is a language originating within the confines of India,from a particular region and represents the slight majority overall, does not by default make it the best suited link language for India. true sign of being 'liberated' from colonialism,is to be free from its effect- chose or discard ideas based on its merits and applicability. to shun ideas, by default, because its foreign/from the colonials, is indicative of a colonized mind, who is living the 'chip on their shoulder lives'. Edited July 20, 2017 by Muloghonto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dark Horse Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 There is nothing wrong with having a state flag. I believe there are state flags in the US as well. I don't see the NRIs on this forum complaining about that. Muloghonto 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 (edited) btw, this whole Hindi vs English is childish nationalism version of own goal. English and Hindi are the two biggest L2 languages in the world. L2 meaning, second language, where its not first language learnt/at home but fluent in the L2 language to a degree nearly indistinguishable with first language speakers. English is at 611 million L2 speakers and Hindi is at 215 million. What this means, is with English + Hindi combo, one has the greatest outreach to foreigners of said language. together, English stands at almost 1 billion speakers, Hindi at just over half a billion. We have the greatest diversity language combo as well as 20% of humanity at our fingertips. Yet, we wanna score own-goal by trying to pick and choose between one or another in official status and influence education. sorry, thats just rubbish, childish thinking. this kind of issues show both the fickle-ness of India and the irony of its existence: it desperately wants to break out from Islamic-influence/dependence on Islamic nations as well as fight off China and 'free' tibet, yet these are the only two things that are keeping India together as 1 nation- its beauty, warts and all. I seriously can't imagine some parts of India ever 'needing or wanting' to be with India, if India was in the position of USA today ( i.e., geo-strategically secure, rich & powerful) and promptly breaking away due to these kinda silly provocations and over-reactions galore. this is because Indian 'nationalism' is yet to grow in public consciousness as a 'statism' concept. Instead, we mostly see nationalism as 'ethnic superiorism/promotion, where we promote one or a few ethnic habits as normative habits of majority of society. Edited July 20, 2017 by Muloghonto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mishra Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 Shiv Sena is lagging behind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lannister Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, Muloghonto said: Moronic idea, on par with chopping your nose to spite your face. I am not pro-Hindi institutionalization all over India. But getting rid of Hindi in education is only going to harm the future students by preventing easy access learning to the most prevalent language in India. When i went to school, every school had 3 languages. English mediums had English as 1st and then a second language (usually mother tongue) and a third language (usually Hindi, if Hindi is not mother tongue). we also had plenty of students in my days who took Hindi as second language, despite it not being our mother tongue. Me (a bong) and my tamil buddy from high school had to explain to our friends for years on end, that we are coming out ahead of them by doing the switch : We are just as fluent as the in our mother tongue, due to speaking it at home, but we ended up way, way more competent in Hindi than they did taking it as 3rd language. There's should be a mutual effort when it comes to promoting our languages. What are they doing in order to help grow our languages? Just because you took Hindi doesn't mean a thing to rest of us. Anyways Sanskrit is more popular with the students nowadays. Edited July 20, 2017 by Lannister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Austin 3:!6 Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 Must admit with all the IT boom and MNCs, Bangalore may have developed as a city but the mentality of people has not changed. Bangalore like Mumbai/Delhi is a cosmopolitan city. So its obvious, people from all over the country to come there for job, family, tourism or pleasure. Its not anybody's personal property. They are there on their individual right being an Indian and no one can or should force them to learn Kannada if they don't want to. Bangalore is no rural village where only local people resides. No one is forcing you to speak in hindi, its your personal matter. Similarly, you cannot expect all North Indians to speak or embrace Kannada language. Its their personal choice too, correct na? There are thousands and thousands of South Indians live in UK. In fact there are many Telugu/Kannada samithis here where members meet up, organize puja's, celebrate festivals etc. I think its a fantastic gesture. But the hypocrisy is, you want to embrace your culture when living overseas but want North Indians to learn Kannada moment they start living in Bangalore. LOL. Tell me once incident you heard in Delhi/Chandigarh/Kolkata etc. where Southern people are treated unfairly. We take pride in them. But I can give ample examples of unfair treatment towards North Indians. In 2012, North Eastern people being beaten up and made to flee the city. There was no BJP govt back then. There are pubs in Bangalore where African students are not allowed. And now they are removing hindi sign boards from metro. How low can one get?I can understand if someone replace their local language with Hindi that is an issue. But what is the harm of having 3 language sign boards? All railway signboards in North India has Eng, Hindi and Urdu. All signboards in Bengal (my home state) has Eng, Bengali and Hindi. Why cant you guys have 3 languages? This is beyond silly and borderline racism. Also, you can cry loud as much as you want that Hindi is not our national language but no one can deny its the most spoken language in India. Even our constitution is written in Eng and Hindi. So the argument of why Delhi metro don't have Kannada signboards is silly. I can also argue why there are no Bengali signboards, Gujratis would want Gujju signboards...so on and so forth. This is plain stupid. Another failed effort by Congress. Any state where Congress is ruling is progressing in India? sandeep and rageaddict 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 46 minutes ago, Lannister said: There's should be a mutual effort when it comes to promoting our languages. What are they doing in order to help grow our languages? Just because you took Hindi doesn't mean a thing to rest of us. Anyways Sanskrit is more popular with the students nowadays. Note that people from Bengal, Gujarat, Maharashtra, Punjab, Rajashtan, etc. are not asking Southern states to learn their language. People of these states have accepted Hindi as Linga Franca and made an effort to learn it. People expect states from South to take a step forward as well These states are not asking to promote their regional languages. And these languages are official languages as well just like languages in the South sandeep 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandeep Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 On 7/19/2017 at 1:07 AM, coffee_rules said: What is wrong if a sign board has English and Kannada on it? Others can read English, locals can read kannada. And what is wrong if the sign has Kannada, English and Hindi on it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lannister Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 2 minutes ago, zen said: Note that people from Bengal, Gujarat, Maharashtra, Punjab, Rajashtan, etc. are not asking Southern states to learn their language. People of these states have accepted Hindi as Linga Franca and made an effort to learn it. People expect states from South to take a step forward as well These states are not asking to promote their regional languages. And these languages are official languages as well just like languages in the South Your point being? Here in south people have opted for English over Hindi. Its as simple as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Austin 3:!6 Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 Your point being? Here in south people have opted for English over Hindi. Its as simple as that. The point being that in South...even North Indians live. Unless you are saying that North Indians are not welcome in Bangalore at all or they have to learn Kannada if they live there. Thats a dangerous mindset if you think that way. Again, what is wrong with having 3 languages - Eng, hindi and kannada? Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 9 minutes ago, Lannister said: Your point being? Here in south people have opted for English over Hindi. Its as simple as that. Union govt has listed both Hindi and Eng as its official languages so there is no option to pick. Signs, esp at key places, should ideally be in all 3 languages (or more if a state requires more local languages) I rate my mother tongue higher than other languages. But that does not stop me from accepting Hindi as linga franca in Ind .... Let's not forget how weird Eng pronunciation can get in Ind. People may think they speak in Eng but the listener may think otherwise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rageaddict Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 41 minutes ago, Lannister said: Your point being? Here in south people have opted for English over Hindi. Its as simple as that. And that could be one of the reasons why English exists in North India - for the South Indian People who have opted for " English " . Likewise you have to make room for the language which North Indians have opted for - Hindi . In South India , First Preference ( Regional Language) Second Preference ( English - Language opted by Southies) Third Preference ( Hindi - Language opted by Northies) In North India, First Preference ( Regional Language) Second Preference ( Hindi - Language opted by Northies) Third Preference ( English - Language opted by Southie) Can't get simpler than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladybouvier Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 1 hour ago, zen said: Note that people from Bengal, Gujarat, Maharashtra, Punjab, Rajashtan, etc. are not asking Southern states to learn their language. People of these states have accepted Hindi as Linga Franca and made an effort to learn it. People expect states from South to take a step forward as well All of the states you've mentioned have languages which are very closely related to Hindi, either by script or by speech. That is perhaps one of the reasons Hindi is quite easy to pick up for North Indians. In the south however, it's an entirely different language family. There are no intricate similarities between Hindi and say, Tamil, whereas Hindi and Marathi use the same script and share a lot of common vocabulary. Logically, it is much easier for Marathis to pick up Hindi than it is for South Indians. Quote These states are not asking to promote their regional languages. And these languages are official languages as well just like languages in the South This is happening at a cost. You can virtually survive anywhere in Bombay with just Hindi. Pretty soon, there won't any relevance for Marathi there and everyone will be speaking either Hindi or English. And for some reason, they don't seem to care about their language dying. Kannadigas became woke at least now and are trying to preserve Kannada by eliminating Hindi imposition. You never know, Marathis may follow their lead in future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rageaddict Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 1 hour ago, sandeep said: And what is wrong if the sign has Kannada, English and Hindi on it? Well the News is that a mere mention of Hindi alongside the Regional Language and English is apparently a case of " Hindi Imposition " and disrespecting the culture of the Locals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandeep Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 8 minutes ago, rageaddict said: Well the News is that a mere mention of Hindi alongside the Regional Language and English is apparently a case of " Hindi Imposition " and disrespecting the culture of the Locals. I can understand if its country bumpkins who are impressionable and fall for that kind of silly logic. But @coffee_rules has been around for a while on ICF, he's not an idiot. So him spouting this kind of silly regional nonsense didn't make sense to me. Hindi's not my native tongue either, but what's really the big deal in accepting it along with English as the other interstate language? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lannister Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 1 hour ago, Austin 3:!6 said: The point being that in South...even North Indians live. Unless you are saying that North Indians are not welcome in Bangalore at all or they have to learn Kannada if they live there. Thats a dangerous mindset if you think that way. Again, what is wrong with having 3 languages - Eng, hindi and kannada? Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk I didn't say any such things. Even without Hindi it's still possible to co-exist like we have been doing all these years. Just that don't expect us/support to learn Hindi if you are not willing to learn other languages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lannister Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 1 hour ago, zen said: Union govt has listed both Hindi and Eng as its official languages so there is no option to pick. Signs, esp at key places, should ideally be in all 3 languages (or more if a state requires more local languages) The reason they have included English is keeping in mind that there are majority of people who don't even speak Hindi. We have decided our official language based on our convenience and our education system. 1 hour ago, zen said: I rate my mother tongue higher than other languages. But that does not stop me from accepting Hindi as linga franca in Ind It's good for you that you have accepted Hindi, but we will decide what's best for our state. 1 hour ago, zen said: Let's not forget how weird Eng pronunciation can get in Ind. People may think they speak in Eng but the listener may think otherwise And who are these listeners? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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