Numbers: Averaging close to 60 for the longest period of time

[sandeep]

I feel sorry for the likes of @putrevus and @someone since they clearly haven't watched Tendy in his pomp.  If you only saw him in his decline phase after 2001, then you missed out on something special.  

 

As far as "signature" innings goes - Tendy scored 100s away from home in his first series in England, South Africa, and Australia. And an 88 in NZ that would have made him the youngest centurion in Test cricket if he had gotten there.  Just think about that for a minute - first tour, and he invariably ends up scoring 100s.  Didn't score a 100 in his 1st tour to the Windies, but hit 3 50+ score with a highest of 93.   

 

That was his signature - a pure technique married to a temperament and discipline that produced instant and consistent success against all types of bowlers and all types of conditions.   He was a batting freak of nature.    And it wasn't just that he was rock solid as a bat, and possessed the technical abilities to adapt to varying conditions.  He just took to it like fish to water, and batted so fluently that he made it just look so easy.  And did it batting in a lineup that boasted of such poor openers - the likes of Nayan Mongia, Debang Gandhi - I mean, the 90s Indian test openers were a sad string of mediocrity.    

 

Until his elbow injury in the early 2000s, he just didn't have a slump.   Think of what Joe Root and Steve Smith have been doing in test cricket in the last couple of years - and extend that to 8 years - that's what Tendy was.   The Tendy of old - the one that batted like a dream, day in and day out - was gone after that injury - you would only see him resurface every 6-8 games or so.  Every so often, things would click for him, and all of a sudden, deliveries that would have dismissed lesser batsmen would start getting caressed all over the park.  

 

If you do want to nitpick on Tendy as a batsman - the one thing you can knock him for - is that he wasn't a 'daddy hundred' type of batsman.   He was definitely lacking in that aspect of batting.   Didn't score a 200 even at the FC level, until the very late 1990s - against the touring Aussies IIRC.   He was very likely to be dismissed under 150 - wasn't the type to just sit there and accumulate runs.   He morphed into that type of batsman in the last 5-7 years of his career.  But that shouldn't be what defines him.   Does Ponting get remembered for averaging 16 and 11 against England and South Africa in his last 2 years?  No, he's rightly remembered for his achievements and the runs he scored in the prime of his career.  Not maligned or disrespected for the runs he gritted out, raging against the dying light in the end.   

 

Of course, those who want to troll - or those who just want to find flaws, real or imagined can come up with their arguments.  But those that actually watched him bat in his prime - they know what he was all about.   

 

I always think back to my trip to London in 2011 with mixed feelings - I had planned my trip thinking I will get to watch test cricket for the first time, expecting a competitive battle between a then #1 ranked Indian test unit vs England in their home conditions - turned out to be a disastrous one-sided mauling.  One where I was subjected to watch a clearly unfit RP singh trundle in to open the bowling for India.   But I will always be glad that I got to watch one of the true greats of Cricket, live - even as a shadow of his former self, for a proper test innings.   

Edited August 22, 2017 by sandeep

[putrevus]

@Sandeep I have watched almost all innings of Sachin but unlike any great batsmen of his era or previous eras.Tendulkar never had any signature daddy hundred and series.Nor did he will his team to win in any signature test.

 

He was Mr Eddy who always got his share of runs with consistency in tests.People keep going back to his perth test in 1991 or something he did as teenager. We all know he was a prodigy and he had some very fine innings as a teenager.

 

Tell me something he did when he became an adult how he transformed and even became better and played some legendary knocks.The answer is nada.

 

There is a reason why Sachin best career rating is below 900.

 

Sachin the ODI batsman was a trendsetter who did things not many other than Richards were capable of doing it.There also he ruined many of those knocks by invariably slowing down as he neared his landmark.IMHO Sachin the odi batsman was main reason for his popularity.

 

He is a great batsman but he is no Bradman who stood head and shoulders above his peers. .He is a legendary batsmen who never blossomed to match his talent.

 

He is the  video from cricinfo where they compared him with Kallis and again posting here.Kallis  bailed his team out of trouble better than Sachin.

 

Edited August 22, 2017 by putrevus

[Vilander]

But

 

BUT

 

he did not score a 300 in tests, a mark of ability shown by the likes of Nair and Jaddu in domestics.

[goose]

putrevus all your observations are 'after the event' analysis, statistics, records, basically bragging rights. it's almost like you weren't there.

[rkt.india]

10 hours ago, putrevus said:

All those included 7 tons against Bangladesh and countless 100s against Srilanka either on roads in 1997 series and  before Murali became Murali.

 

 

7 tons in tests against BD?

[rtmohanlal]

On 8/22/2017 at 8:52 AM, rkt.india said:

yeah

and there is some sort of this 'awe inspring & enthralling'  to have avg:ed that much against a bunch of 'very high qlty ' ATG bowlers with that much variety.Each and every one of those bowlers were different from one another in so many ways.Yet they were all  greats.Those were Hadlee,Imran,Wasim,Waqar,Ambrose,Walsh,Bishop,Donald,Pollock,Steyn,Mcgrath,Warne,Murali  & several other very good bowlers too.Even if any one  avg: over 65  against  a bunch of 'slightly lesser qlty bowlers on the avg:',that can't match a 57 avg: that Sachin achieved after scoring 14692 runs in first 177 tests.

 

[rtmohanlal]

10 hours ago, Vilander said:

But

 

BUT

 

he did not score a 300 in tests, a mark of ability shown by the likes of Nair and Jaddu in domestics.

 

14 hours ago, putrevus said:

Sachin inspite of all his numbers never had 500 runs in series nor scored 2 hundreds in match. I don't know what is his stand out innings in a test match. Some people call his 241 against Aussies in Sydney 04 as stand out one but that there was nothing that stood out about that innings except he cut out his cover drive.Laxman was blazing the Aussies and tendulkar was playing second fiddle to him.

 

Even after Indian team became strong  and one of the best batting lineup in the history of the game, this myth that Indian batting was all about Sachin persisted.

Sachin scored 301 runs in that test with out getting dismissed.And AUS narrowly escaped with a draw. If only that Parthiv didn't drop Gillespie very early  in AUS first inns.Similarly Sachin scored some 493 iinns in that 2008 AUS series  in 4 tests.And we all know about that Sydney test.One thing I  agree was that Sachin for  some  reason or the other was never destined to be  a 'the premier contributer' in India's prestige away wins when compared to some one like Dravid.If we take India's major wins during his times in coutries like AUS,ENG,NZL,WI,PAK & SAF we don't see Sachin contributing as much as Dravid in those wins.

That one factor on which he had no control is his only blip  in his record.In a way he was not destined because he couldn't have controlled  Parthiv's & Bucknor's actions & the likes any way.

But yet there were some memorable performances like

57 in 89 vs PAK -avoided a possible loss

68  & 119*  in 90s vs ENG - turned an almost  sure loss into a draw.

193 vs ENG -   though leading scorer, Dravid's 148 was slightly more important.

117 vs WIN in 2002 - won the match

71 vs AUS in 2007 -won but Dravid slightly better.

160 vs NZL  in 2009- won the match & the series

91 vs ENG  in  2007 -top scorer,won the match & the series

 

So,It was just that Sachin didn't have a mammoth  knock apart from against  NZL in win ,where he was the major contributor.But  other than that his record is almost perfect.

[Vilander]

4 hours ago, rtmohanlal said:

and there is some sort of this 'awe inspring & enthralling'  to have avg:ed that much against a bunch of 'very high qlty ' ATG bowlers with that much variety.Each and every one of those bowlers were different from one another in so many ways.Yet they were all  greats.

Those were Hadlee,Imran+bottlecap,Wasim,Waqar+bottlecap,Ambrose,Walsh,Bishop,Donald,Pollock,Steyn,Mcgrath,Warne, Murali  & several other very good bowlers too.Even if any one  avg: over 65  against  a bunch of 'slightly lesser qlty bowlers on the avg:',that can't match a 57 avg: that Sachin achieved after scoring 14692 runs in first 177 tests.

 

corrected.

 

thank you.

[rtmohanlal]

1 hour ago, Vilander said:

corrected.

 

thank you.

ha ha ..that element is included in their names being included in ATG category itself..With out that element Kaptaan especially wouldn't have avg:ed with in 25.

[kira]

On 8/21/2017 at 7:07 AM, Gollum said:

Pretty sure Smith will end up with a career average of over 60 and a balanced one too with runs scored everywhere. He is the true heir of Tendulkar.

No, he won't, his technique isn't the greatest, he relies on good hand eye coordination, he will fall very quickly as he loses his hand eye coordination with age, very similar to ponting

[putrevus]

On 8/22/2017 at 6:57 PM, goose said:

putrevus all your observations are 'after the event' analysis, statistics, records, basically bragging rights. it's almost like you weren't there.

This topic is all about 'after event analysis'.You can selective pick any great player's career and show stats in his favor. 

[putrevus]

On 8/22/2017 at 11:56 PM, rkt.india said:

7 tons in tests against BD?

My bad it is 5 tons and he played 7 tests against Bangladesh.

[putrevus]

23 hours ago, rtmohanlal said:

 

Sachin scored 301 runs in that test with out getting dismissed.And AUS narrowly escaped with a draw. If only that Parthiv didn't drop Gillespie very early  in AUS first inns.Similarly Sachin scored some 493 iinns in that 2008 AUS series  in 4 tests.And we all know about that Sydney test.One thing I  agree was that Sachin for  some  reason or the other was never destined to be  a 'the premier contributer' in India's prestige away wins when compared to some one like Dravid.If we take India's major wins during his times in coutries like AUS,ENG,NZL,WI,PAK & SAF we don't see Sachin contributing as much as Dravid in those wins.

That one factor on which he had no control is his only blip  in his record.In a way he was not destined because he couldn't have controlled  Parthiv's & Bucknor's actions & the likes any way.

But yet there were some memorable performances like

57 in 89 vs PAK -avoided a possible loss

68  & 119*  in 90s vs ENG - turned an almost  sure loss into a draw.

193 vs ENG -   though leading scorer, Dravid's 148 was slightly more important.

117 vs WIN in 2002 - won the matchFor 

71 vs AUS in 2007 -won but Dravid slightly better.

160 vs NZL  in 2009- won the match & the series

91 vs ENG  in  2007 -top scorer,won the match & the series

 

So,It was just that Sachin didn't have a mammoth  knock apart from against  NZL in win ,where he was the major contributor.But  other than that his record is almost perfect.

Any great player will have knocks like these otherwise he would not be called great.Although Sachin for all his greatness has fewer compared to other greats of his era. The debate about Sachin is never  about his greatness but it is always about him being on being first face on Mount Rushmore  and him being portrayed as someone who was so far beyond his peers.

Just like Kohli who can average 100 in chases in these meaningless bi laterals odis but until he chases down  a total in a final his legacy will be incomplete.

[goose]

1 hour ago, putrevus said:

This topic is all about 'after event analysis'.You can selective pick any great player's career and show stats in his favor. 

i think you're depressed.

[kira]

1 hour ago, goose said:

i think you're depressed.

And jealous of the greatest cricketer to have played this game

[rtmohanlal]

2 hours ago, putrevus said:

Any great player will have knocks like these otherwise he would not be called great.Although Sachin for all his greatness has fewer compared to other greats of his era. The debate about Sachin is never  about his greatness but it is always about him being on being first face on Mount Rushmore  and him being portrayed as someone who was so far beyond his peers.

Just like Kohli who can average 100 in chases in these meaningless bi laterals odis but until he chases down  a total in a final his legacy will be incomplete.

Who told he was so far ahead ??? But certainly he was the best because he got most of the boxes ticked than most batsmen.In that sense the most complete.

After 177 tests 14692 runs @ 56.94 avg: .Both home and abroad avg;  almost similar.

+40 avg:s in all countries for such longevity.which implies more or less equally comfortable against all sorts of bowling & conditions.

Hundreds against almost all quality bowlers of his time.

 

In  one dayers too that much longevity at very higher avg: & str: rate.Almost rounded avg:s in all countries he played in.

Was brilliant in the world cup.Was brilliant in tournament knock outs, finals, semifinals etc etc.

That is why he is the most complete.

 

 

 

[sandeep]

* the stats.   Find me another batsman who could out-do Dravid in technique, and surpass Veeru in dominating bowlers, at the same time.  Good enough to defend and dominate top-class spin as well as pace bowling in optimal conditions for either.   Are there specific narrow scenarios where some other batsman may edge Tendy?  Sure - but the fact is that in almost any batting metric that you can think of, Tendy is the benchmark that you measure any batsman post-1970.   

 

and * the haters. After the Don, Sachin Ramesh Tendulkar is the most complete test batsman to ever play test cricket.   Those who 'get' test cricket, know this.  No amount of number crunching, salami slicing, or whinging is going to change this fact.  

[SUMO]

in 150 years of cricket history sachin can only be matched by lara viv sobers bradman and barry richards(possibly).
rest all ATGs are a league or two below him.
even among those 5 I think I can struck off sobers (played in immature era and wasn't miles ahead his peers like bradman)
and barry (outshined even viv in world series but still untested in test cricket and never played in subcontinent)

Now, comparing him with lara is most exciting because they were peers and neck n neck in test cricket. if lara was master of long innings, sachin was master of consistency. But odi cricket gives an edge to tendulkar over him.
greats has divided opinion on picking one among them.

Regarding sir Don, that freakish 99.4!!

Regarding viv, only he was the one who dominated test and odi cricket both like tendy. And he was more fearful and impactful on bowlers than tendy in his prime years that is for sure. But he lacked longivity because he was a hand eye combo and power player, his technique wasn't among the bests so he deteriorated quickly with age. Still I think if somebody batted better than tendulkar it could only be sir viv in his prime.

IMHO Don, viv and tendy are the ATG of ATGs 

[Texan]

Batting averages are a good indicator of a player's caliber but they need to be seen in context of the match-winning or match-saving knocks that they played. Sachin played some outstanding knocks and got runs against all kinds of bowlers everywhere and had hardly any weaknesses in his batting. However, I will say that none of Sachin's innings were as impactful as some of his less fancied contemporaries' innings during his career such as-

 

281 by VVS. Best. Indian. Innings. Ever.

309 by Sehwag in Pak to setup first ever Indian win in Pak.

Twin fifties by Dravid to setup series win in WI

76* by VVS to win Mohali Test vs Aus by thinnest of margins. 

270 by Dravid to win first ever series in Pak

180 by Dravid playing the supporting act to Laxman after being demoted in the batting order

233 by Dravid to win Adelaide Test

 

The best Sachin Test innings was the 136 he scored vs Pak in a losing cause. Had he stayed on and won the game, it would have been one of the top innings of all time. 

 

Also, Sachin benefitted from having a stable number 4 spot in the batting line-up, never batted at 3 and only opened the innings once I think when we were looking for quick runs. Likes of Dravid and Laxman were shunted up and down the batting order, were asked to open when no other openers were available and didn't get to play much at 4, which is probably the best spot to bat at in Tests.

 

 

[rtmohanlal]

8 hours ago, Texan said:

Batting averages are a good indicator of a player's caliber but they need to be seen in context of the match-winning or match-saving knocks that they played. Sachin played some outstanding knocks and got runs against all kinds of bowlers everywhere and had hardly any weaknesses in his batting. However, I will say that none of Sachin's innings were as impactful as some of his less fancied contemporaries' innings during his career such as-

 

281 by VVS. Best. Indian. Innings. Ever.

309 by Sehwag in Pak to setup first ever Indian win in Pak.

Twin fifties by Dravid to setup series win in WI

76* by VVS to win Mohali Test vs Aus by thinnest of margins. 

270 by Dravid to win first ever series in Pak

180 by Dravid playing the supporting act to Laxman after being demoted in the batting order

233 by Dravid to win Adelaide Test

 

The best Sachin Test innings was the 136 he scored vs Pak in a losing cause. Had he stayed on and won the game, it would have been one of the top innings of all time. 

 

Also, Sachin benefitted from having a stable number 4 spot in the batting line-up, never batted at 3 and only opened the innings once I think when we were looking for quick runs. Likes of Dravid and Laxman were shunted up and down the batting order, were asked to open when no other openers were available and didn't get to play much at 4, which is probably the best spot to bat at in Tests.

 

 

 I  think Sachin's 155* vs AUS in IND & 103* vs ENG in 4rth inns would come on a par with  atleast Dravid's 180 in this list.